Can you Sin and Not Die?

[crossnote]

If I placed my faith in Christ and then become a warlock, sexually loose, even a murderer, and found a new god and believed Satan over God, would I be able to enter into the City?

that''s a big 'IF'.

 

[crossnote]

Yes he did, and lost his salvation until he FOUND repentance before he took his last breath, all you who try to use the few who fell to promote your sinful lifestyle, need to realize, we are NOT to follow King David, but Jesus example!

please show me in Scripture where 'the man after God's own heart' lost his salvation.

 

[cfultz3]

If I placed my faith in Christ and then become a warlock, sexually loose, even a murderer, and found a new god and believed Satan over God, would I be able to enter into the City?

The answer, directly from Jesus Himself, would be no because I did not do His commandments when I made Him my Lord, but instead, continued or started to live in sin.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Rev 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

 

[Tommy4Christ]

If I placed my faith in Christ and then become a warlock, sexually loose, even a murderer, and found a new god and believed Satan over God, would I be able to enter into the City?

Good question Mr Fultz, and I know you know the answer, and I pray many here who are actually defending sin and rebellion can see the great hypocrisy their false doctrines are promoting, but there is only one answer to this question and the word of God backs it up!


NO!

Gal 5:19
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

But some will find an excuse why they do not have to obey the commands of God, and explain away these clear warnings!

 

[cfultz3]

Good question Mr Fultz, and I know you know the answer, and I pray many here who are actually defending sin and rebellion can see the great hypocrisy their false doctrines are promoting, but there is only one answer to this question and the word of God backs it up!

NO!

Gal 5:19
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

But some will find an excuse why they do not have to obey the commands of God, and explain away these clear warnings!

Now, we have two testimonies, one from Jesus and one from Paul, which are in harmony. They who do such things shall not enter into the Kingdom.

 

[Tommy4Christ]

Quote:

"David's sin is no excuse nor is any other Saint who fell. David being restored was a RARE exception! Think of Esau and Judas, there was no sin, repent for them and neither will there be for those who will not heed these warnings".

 

[Powemm]

It is written : I am the vine , you are the branch... You can not be separated from
Me...

Thinking upon the question asked .. I was reminded of Gods light ... Tie moment I take my eyes off Him... I become darkened ..
our focus is so important in everything we think, say and do... the world wants to say and do everything to capture my attention ... it puts forth sounds, pictures, smells, things we can touch ... these things are like wells we run too..we see something "we look at it" we hear something " it gains our attention" we smell something " we turn our head to see what it is ". These are the focuses that can steal our attention away from God ... Sounds simple doesnt it ? Well let's take a look...
What penetrating the environment you and your family are in right now?
Let's check those gates for a moment ... What are the sounds you hear ? What are your eyes looking at? Awareness is vital... are you watching something completely wholesome? Listening to things that are completely wholesome? Engaged in completely wholesome conversation?
these are focus stealers ... Anyone and anything surrounding you in any Of these areas , that are not wholesome, can penetrating a gate ... is like putting poison in your spiritual system .... do oil and water mix? No they don't
We have a filtering system ... if we are pouring things "of God in" our life becomes brighter.... If we are pouring things in not of Him... Our life becomes darkened ... sin is crouching at the Door... It paces the hedgeline , looking for an open gate ... Im one who keeps the bit securely in my mouth... I have given God the authority to keep his hand to reign me very close to it...
As He is the authority over my life ... I can tell immediately when I'm pulling my head away from Him...and have become extremely sensitive to darkness when I do... The darkness immediately causes my submission to Him ...

Just some things to think about ... this is simply how God is working in my life ... Doesn't mean it's the way he is working in yours ...as He is working sin out in all of us ...
Peace in christ
Michelle

 

[weakness]

Why did David not be allowed to build the earthly temple ,but instead his son Solomon ?

 

[crossnote]

Originally Posted by Tommy4Christ

Yes he did, and lost his salvation until he FOUND repentance before he took his last breath, all you who try to use the few who fell to promote your sinful lifestyle, need to realize, we are NOT to follow King David, but Jesus example!

please show me in Scripture where 'the man after God's own heart' lost his salvation.

Still awaiting your reply from Scripture. zzzzzzzzzz

 

[zone]

I pray many here who are actually defending sin and rebellion can see the great hypocrisy their false doctrines are promoting, but there is only one answer to this question and the word of God backs it up!

oh wow!
tommy i'm soooooooooo grateful you told me.
i was considering becoming a warlock, sexually loose, even a murderer, and finding a new god and believing Satan over God.
thanks for the heads up on that.

seriously.

 

[Disdame45]

Hi Weakness - That's an interesting question. When we look at that passage in 2 Samuel 7, we find that David wants to build a temple, yet God tells Nathan the prophet to tell David this: "Would you build a house for Me to dwell in? For I have not dwelt in a house since the time that I brought the children of Israel up from Egypt, even to this day, but have moved about in a tent and in a tabernacle." Moreover, He said that wherever He went with the children of Israel did He ever command them to build for Him a house of cedar?... in verses 12-16, God further establishes a covenant with David that through his seed, God's house will be built and the house and the kingdom shall be established forever... He will be His Father and He will be His Son.
It is clear to me that the above passage indicates that God was already making a mention of His plans of the REAL temple... which is in His Son, Jesus Christ. David might not have understood this, hence the reason his son, Solomon built a temple.
We get a glimpse of this too, in Acts 7:44-50, where Stephen is telling those around him what God's true tabernacle is. The Israelites had the tabernacle, made according to the exact instructions from God as given to Moses. Stephen goes on to say that David wanted to build God a house, but Solomon built Him a house. Then Stephen quotes Isaiah:
"However, the Most High does not dwell in temples made with hands, as the prophet says:
'Heaven is My throne,
And earth is My footstool.
What house will you build for Me? says the Lord,
Or what is the place of My rest?
Has My hand not made all these things?' "

It's like God is saying... hey guys.... I made you and everything that is in the world... and yet you will think that you can make me a house to dwell in?... He is also saying here that He Himself will build the temple, through His Son, Jesus Christ. And we are living temples as the body of Christ, being built up together for the Glory of God. God dwells in those who belong to Him and obey Him. "Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me." - John 14:23-24

 

[crossnote]

when david was old , he asked for young women to keep him warm in bed. now I am not saying that he still had a lust problem, but it is interesting. given his past history, I wonder....

In honor of King David and the danger of bearing false witness let God's Word set the record straight.

Now king David was old and stricken in years; and they covered him with clothes, but he gat* no heat. Wherefore his servants said unto him, Let there be sought for my lord the king a young virgin: and let her stand before the king, and let her cherish him, and let her lie in thy bosom, that my lord the king may get heat. So they sought for a fair damsel throughout all the coasts of Israel, and found Abishag a Shunammite, and brought her to the king. And the damsel was very fair, and cherished the king, and ministered to him: but the king knew her not.
(1Ki 1:1-4)

* gat no heat = could not get warm.

 

[starfield]

This does not prove anything.

1. The land was theirs. God promised it to them through abraham. This was not a conditional covenant.
2. later. Moses gave them the laws of which they did have to obey to be BLESSED in the land. But it does not discount that the land still belonged to them.

Same with salvation. We enter through faith. Faith causes us to obey. It is not the obeying which saves Obeying is a result of our salvation.

As with abraham, he obeyed because he had faith. But scripture makes it clear. He was not saved by any of the works he did because of his faith, if he was, he would have something to boast of.

Then tell that to God who demanded obedience to have eternal salvation. Tell Him that you cannot obey Him because if you do you will have something to boast about.

the problem those who do not believe in eternal security face with this argument of yours. is how much work would save. and how much work would be not enough to not save. And how much sin would make us ineligable, and how little sin would make us eligible.

In essence, a Christian can walk contrary to God's word and still inherit the kingdom. It's no wonder you said earlier that David was still an adulterer when he died, thus the implication is that believers can live in adultery, not die spiritually, and still inherit the kingdom despite all the warnings in the scripture (Rom 8:13, 1 Cor 6:9-10, Gal 5:19-21, etc). Do you just ignore those passages? How many sins did Adam and Eve commit before they died spiritually?

Out of the generation that came out of Egypt only Joshua and Caleb entered Canaan while the rest perished in the wilderness because of disobedience. Like I said before, you cannot disconnect obedience from faith otherwise it is mere belief as that of demons (dead faith). That is what James said. God told Noah to build the ark but if Noah just sat there claiming that he has faith but won't obey Him, would he have been saved from the flood? Was God's instruction that he build the ark a mere suggestion? Is holiness in order to see God optional for believers? God has guidelines that believers are to follow through His enabling power to prepare us for His kingdom so going contrary to His word shows that one lacks true saving faith. James understood this.

You refuse to address the crystal clear Hebrews 5:9 because it demolishes this anti-obedience doctrine. Are you just going to gloss over it, Sir? And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him. It proves beyond a shadow of doubt that obedience is not optional because only those who continually obey Jesus have eternal salvation. Disobedient Christians do not have eternal salvation.

As children who have been adopted into the family of God we are not to regress to our old sinful lifestyle but rather aspire to progress and climb to higher heights in our relationship with Jesus, submit yourself to the Savior and allow Him to mold you into the person He wants you to be. I am not saying it is all human power. It is definitely by the power of God that we can obey. 1 Peter 1:14-16, 22-25
14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Some want to believe that being a Christian is just about professing faith in Christ but not submitting to Him, but not according to Luke 6:46-49. A wise believer hears the word of God and submits to it and thus no storm can uproot the faith built on such solid foundation, whereas for a foolish believer, the word goes in one ear and out the other so when storms come (earthly ones or even eternal one- Judgment day) they perish. Luke 6:46-49
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

The bible clearly states that we are to obey God if we are His. No ifs and buts.

Why you can't discuss about salvation and obedience without bringing up "works" which one could boast of or "earning salvation"? I have no clue.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

To whom it may concern:
There seem to be a big problem defining "works". When somebody uses scripture talking about "works " of the spirit in us, they are misrepresented by some as"works" of the law, or "works" of the flesh ,or some kind of "work" of self righteousness. Is this purposely done? I don't know.Maybe just ignorance? Or could it be spiritual wickedness in High places sowing discord and confusion? "For wheresoever the dead body is there will the scavengers gather". "But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. This wisdom desendeth not from above ,but is earthly, sensual,devilish. For where envy and strife are,there is confusion and every evil work." " But be ye doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves".But will thou know O vain man,that faith without works is dead? Was not our father Abraham justified by works when he OFFERED up Issac his son upon the alter? See how Faith wrought WITH HIS WORKS , and by WORKS was his Faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled, Abraham believed God ,and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called a friend of God. Ye see then that by "works" a man is justified and not by faith only.

Works (by defenition) are anything done in order to receive a payment or reward. If I am working for a wage, then I am working. If I am working because i love people (and God) but not to earn a wage, then I am not working.

As paul says in romans 4,

4 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]2 [/SUP]For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]For what does the Scripture say?“Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[SUP][b][/SUP] [SUP]4 [/SUP]Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.

[SUP]5 [/SUP]But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, [SUP]6 [/SUP]just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered; [SUP]8 [/SUP]Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

Abraham was saved or made righteous by his faith. It was OUT OF THIS FAITH that he did the work. Not the work itself which made him right with God.

Paul continues in romans

Romans 11:6


And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

That it can only be one or the other, it can not be both. Grace is given to someone who does not deserve it. A reward is given to someone who worked hard to earn it. That is why it has to be one or the other.

Paul tells us through Timothy,

2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

That Our salvation was secure before time even began. Before we did one work, before we even took one breath. God in his omniscience looked forward in time, and saw our faith in his son, And chose to save us based on that faith

finally we have to walk a narrow line, or we could be seen as not having faith at all. but mere belief in Christ but faith in self.

as Paul said,

Galatians 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

Are we foolish to think we are saved by the spirit (faith), but have to perfect that salvation in the flesh (works) or our salvation may be lost?

And then james.

If we claim to have faith, but have no work, can our faith save us? so what is James saying? like you, who thinks james is saying we must work to earn salvation? And at the same time contradicting Paul in romans 4 and the other passages I showed?

or is he condemning a belief only faith,James goes on to say if you believe you do well, even demons believe, You see belief is not enough. We can believe in Christ and God. even believe he died, But if we do not put true faith in Christ, it is not enough.

Paul, In romans 4, Spoke to a group trying to work to earn grace, thus he condemned this false gospel. James, on the other hand, Was condemning a licentious group who taught easy believism. Thus he spoke the way he spoke.

Paul in many places said those who are truly saved will work. Thus james is agreeing with paul here. if you have true faith, you will work. If you do not show signs of true faith, then how can you believe your faith saves you. it wont.

james is not teaching works, he is teaching against licentiousness.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Would you kindly answer the question please

I did.. The answer to the second part of your question was he was never saved, and I proved it with scripture.

the answer to the first part is we can not know. Was the person ever saved? is he a prodigal son now? if so he is still saved.

or was that person one who had mere belief and no faith? if so, he was never saved.

and I proved it by showing forcing you to answer how much sin is to much sin in which we lose salvation? it is not the type of sin (as your trying to say) All sin can separate us from God. not just those seemingly grave sins. so if your going to say sin can cause us to lose salvation. how much sin. Answer that and you have your answer!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

with a yes or no.

I am not God. why are you trying to make me be God? Only God can answer with a yes or no. I can not see the mans heart or know if he ever repented and had faith, and was given Gods spirit as a guarantee or not..

I pray you do not answer with a yes or no either. for you would be making yourself God, and judge of this person!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Qute:

Again I asked. what is the cut off of sins, if you want to discuss sin causing us to lose salvation. How many sins does scripture say cause death? 1? 10? 50? 100? 1000??

Just one as you have been told many times!

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die

But she committed one act of rebellion against God, and guess what? She died spiritually!

So your saying Christ died for nothing?

I guess we are all doomed. Christ died long before we were even born. So he could not have died for any of our sins. thus we have no hope. Thanks for showing me the err of my ways.. Lets all go out and have fin people. we have no hope. God did not die for all of our sins, he could not have.. As tommy is showing us!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Then tell that to God who demanded obedience to have eternal salvation. Tell Him that you cannot obey Him because if you do you will have something to boast about.

No, better yet, you explain to God how he told us only perfect obedience will get us to heaven of our own power. and how he told us we have all failed to meet that mark (romans 3; 23) and why you wish to add to the gospel of grace and say you know better than God. and that although God already told you you can never be good enough, and without his love and grace based on CHRIST, God is wrong.

Let me know how that goes will ya?

In essence, a Christian can walk contrary to God's word and still inherit the kingdom. It's no wonder you said earlier that David was still an adulterer when he died, thus the implication is that believers can live in adultery, not die spiritually, and still inherit the kingdom despite all the warnings in the scripture (Rom 8:13, 1 Cor 6:9-10, Gal 5:19-21, etc). Do you just ignore those passages? How many sins did Adam and Eve commit before they died spiritually?

lol, I just stated a fact. Are you going to ignore the fact? David did live in adultery until the day he died. Thus according to you. David was not a man after Gods heart. but was a dead sinner who will rot in hell for his sin.

Adam and eve was alive when they sinned, One sin caused not only their spiritual death, but the spiritual death of all mankind. I guess you forgot all about that didn't you?

Why are you stuck on adultry? do you not know that if God appeared for you at this minute you would fall to your knees and be horrifed as you realize the sin YOU commit on a daily basis? What makes you think you are more righteous than anyone else? Paul did not think this, I guess your better than Paul??

Out of the generation that came out of Egypt only Joshua and Caleb entered Canaan while the rest perished in the wilderness because of disobedience.

Why? what separated Joshua and caleb from the rest? Was it sin? NO! It was trust in God. Are you saying Joshua and caleb were sinless?

Like I said before, you cannot disconnect obedience from faith otherwise it is mere belief as that of demons (dead faith).

Amen. I am not saying this. But you are misinterpreting this. James said zero works. Now your trying to say how many works? why is it you all can never give a number of sins or works which can separate us from God? James said zero works.Do you know more than james? Paul said over and over ZERO WORKS can save us. Do you know more than Paul??

That is what James said. God told Noah to build the ark but if Noah just sat there claiming that he has faith but won't obey Him, would he have been saved from the flood? Was God's instruction

that he build the ark a mere suggestion? Is holiness in order to see God optional for believers? God has guidelines that believers are to follow through His enabling power to prepare us for His kingdom so going contrary to His word shows that one lacks true saving faith. James understood this.

No, you have James all wrong. James understood that if Noah had true faith in God, he would have done what God said, If he did not have true faith, he would not. It was not doing what Noah and abraham did that saved them, it was their faith. Paul is clear on this in romans 4. again, are you calling Paul a liar?

You refuse to address the crystal clear Hebrews 5:9 because it demolishes this anti-obedience doctrine. Are you just going to gloss over it, Sir?

And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him. It proves beyond a shadow of doubt that obedience is not optional because only those who continually obey Jesus have eternal salvation. Disobedient Christians do not have eternal salvation.

No, you are adding to the words now. Where do you see the word continual in that passage? now your adding to the word of God and you expect me to listen to you?

News flash. THOSE WHO HAVE FAITH WILL OBEY (although not perfectly) THOSE WHO DO NOT WILL NOT OBEY. why? THEY HAVE NO FAITH!

As children who have been adopted into the family of God we are not to regress to our old sinful lifestyle but rather aspire to progress and climb to higher heights in our relationship with Jesus, submit yourself to the Savior and allow Him to mold you into the person He wants you to be. I am not saying it is all human power. It is definitely by the power of God that we can obey.

1 Peter 1:14-16, 22-25
14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Some want to believe that being a Christian is just about professing faith in Christ but not submitting to Him, but not according to Luke 6:46-49. A wise believer hears the word of God and submits to it and thus no storm can uproot the faith built on such solid foundation, whereas for a foolish believer, the word goes in one ear and out the other so when storms come (earthly ones or even eternal one- Judgment day) they perish. Luke 6:46-49
46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
47 Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
48 He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
49 But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.

The bible clearly states that we are to obey God if we are His. No ifs and buts.

No. the Bible clearly states if we have true faith WE WILL OBEY GOD.

Your saying we have to obey the law and we might be saved. If you want to save yourself by law. go for it.

Why you can't discuss about salvation and obedience without bringing up "works" which one could boast of or "earning salvation"? I have no clue.

Why can't I?

Not by workd of righteousness which I have done, but by God mercy he saved me

Not of works least anyone should boast

Oh wretched man that I am,

If you want to boast of your good deeds, and thing God is required to save you because you earned it. Feel free. I place my faith in God KNOWING I will never be worthy. And let him do the work of changing me.

Let me know how trying to be saved by law works for you!

 

[cfultz3]

oh wow!
tommy i'm soooooooooo grateful you told me.
i was considering becoming a warlock, sexually loose, even a murderer, and finding a new god and believing Satan over God.
thanks for the heads up on that.

seriously.

Yet, there are people who think they can live in sin and still be saved. The seriousiness of this matter is that they are convinced that God loves them and it is ok to be that drunkard, to live and love out of wedlock, to even have the vilest of mouths. It is easy for a person whose conscience has been seared to be convicned that God overlooks their sin(s).

I am not saying that this is any of you*, but there are some who think they can live in sin and yet somehow still be under grace.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yet, there are people who think they can live in sin and still be saved. The seriousiness of this matter is that they are convinced that God loves them and it is ok to be that drunkard, to live and love out of wedlock, to even have the vilest of mouths. It is easy for a person whose conscience has been seared to be convicned that God overlooks their sin(s).

I am not saying that this is any of you*, but there are some who think they can live in sin and yet somehow still be under grace.

true, and we agree.

But now can we agree they were never saved in the first place. Because as james said, they had mere belief, and not faith? because they have not repented? That they did not lose salvation. they never had it.