The Blood of Christ: "Ransom" NOT "Penal Substitution"
- Thread starter Skinski7
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PELAGIANISM
Everyone is responsible for his own sin, not for the sin of Adam. (Adam's sin was only a bad example for us).
Some men can be saved simply by living up to the light they have been given (apart from the Bible)
Thus, the gospel is not necessary for salvation
Man, on his own, can choose to follow God or refuse to do so
he does not need God to remove any "blindness"
he does not need special grace or illumination from God
In his lifetime, he may receive many opportunities to choose to be saved
The Bible, the Holy Spirit, and the officers of the church may present the choice, but they cannot go beyond making the alternative to follow God both reasonable and beneficial
God does not save the lost, He only ratifies the sinner's decision to be saved
I wonder if Pelagius was able to make the moral choice of living a sinless life. . .
Who Are The Wicked!
Isa 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil; who put darkness for light and light for darkness; who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
Isa 5:21 Woe to those wise in their own eyes, and bright in their own sight!
The wicked are simply those who persist in sin, defend sin, and live a godless life while proclaiming to be in the light!
But the professing hypocritical church today that defend their right to be a filthy rag sinner, still defiled in their hearts, will say the wicked are the serial killers, rapists, terrorists, etc., but they can disobey God every day and be considered righteous by proxy that Jesus took their place!
Luk 11:35 Therefore take heed that the light in you is not darkness.
You cannot walk IN the light and the dark at the same time! Those who defend the sin gospel are still In darkness, but think they are IN the light, which is a very dangerous place to be in!
Mal 2:17 You have wearied Jehovah with your words. Yet you say, In what have we wearied Him? When you say, every evildoer is good in the eyes of Jehovah, and He delights in them; or, where is the God of justice?
When you defend your right to be Of God, and to be IN sin, and to be OF the world, then you have wearied God with your words! You are actually promoting evil over good in the eyes of God, and making Him a god of this age who winks at sin and rebellion
Ecc 8:11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.
Ecc 8:12 Though a sinner do evil an hundred times, and his days be prolonged, yet surely I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, which fear before him:
Ecc 8:13 But it shall not be well with the wicked, neither shall he prolong his days, which are as a shadow; because he feareth not before God.
Ecc 8:14 There is a vanity which is done upon the earth; that there be just men, unto whom it happeneth according to the work of the wicked; again, there be wicked men, to whom it happeneth according to the work of the righteous: I said that this also is vanity.
Just because the professing church thinks they can live IN sin and disobedience, or defend their right to sin and disobey God, doesn’t mean God condones their ways! No way!
He is waiting patiently for now for all to repent, stop doing evil, and seek His great mercy! God makes it crystal clear that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God, He commands His children to hate evil, and cling to good! He gives all a fair chance to repent, and come and reason with Him, to seek His great mercy, and forgiveness, followed by much power and strength IN Christ to resist the temptations of the devil, and this fading and dying world, infested with wicked sinners who mock God by denying His truth and also the power He came to give to mankind who touch the blood of Christ through repentance, stopping all sin and rebellion against Him.
Now free from the bondages of sin, and the lies, coming with a pure heart now being led by the spirit of truth!
Tommy 2-6-13
Psa 10:11 He has said in his heart, God has forgotten; He hides His face; He will not see forever!
Psa 10:12 Arise, O Jehovah; O God, lift up Your hand; forget not the humble.
Psa 10:13 Why do the wicked condemn God? He has said in his heart, You will not judge.
Isa 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil; who put darkness for light and light for darkness; who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter!
Isa 5:21 Woe to those wise in their own eyes, and bright in their own sight!
The wicked are simply those who persist in sin, defend sin, and live a godless life while proclaiming to be in the light!
But the professing hypocritical church today that defend their right to be a filthy rag sinner, still defiled in their hearts, will say the wicked are the serial killers, rapists, terrorists, etc., but they can disobey God every day and be considered righteous by proxy that Jesus took their place!
Luk 11:35 Therefore take heed that the light in you is not darkness.
You cannot walk IN the light and the dark at the same time! Those who defend the sin gospel are still In darkness, but think they are IN the light, which is a very dangerous place to be in!
Mal 2:17 You have wearied Jehovah with your words. Yet you say, In what have we wearied Him? When you say, every evildoer is good in the eyes of Jehovah, and He delights in them; or, where is the God of justice?
When you defend your right to be Of God, and to be IN sin, and to be OF the world, then you have wearied God with your words! You are actually promoting evil over good in the eyes of God, and making Him a god of this age who winks at sin and rebellion
Ecc 8:11 Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil.
Ecc 8:12 Though a sinner do evil an hundred times, and his days be prolonged, yet surely I know that it shall be well with them that fear God, which fear before him:
Ecc 8:13 But it shall not be well with the wicked, neither shall he prolong his days, which are as a shadow; because he feareth not before God.
Ecc 8:14 There is a vanity which is done upon the earth; that there be just men, unto whom it happeneth according to the work of the wicked; again, there be wicked men, to whom it happeneth according to the work of the righteous: I said that this also is vanity.
Just because the professing church thinks they can live IN sin and disobedience, or defend their right to sin and disobey God, doesn’t mean God condones their ways! No way!
He is waiting patiently for now for all to repent, stop doing evil, and seek His great mercy! God makes it crystal clear that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God, He commands His children to hate evil, and cling to good! He gives all a fair chance to repent, and come and reason with Him, to seek His great mercy, and forgiveness, followed by much power and strength IN Christ to resist the temptations of the devil, and this fading and dying world, infested with wicked sinners who mock God by denying His truth and also the power He came to give to mankind who touch the blood of Christ through repentance, stopping all sin and rebellion against Him.
Now free from the bondages of sin, and the lies, coming with a pure heart now being led by the spirit of truth!
Tommy 2-6-13
Psa 10:11 He has said in his heart, God has forgotten; He hides His face; He will not see forever!
Psa 10:12 Arise, O Jehovah; O God, lift up Your hand; forget not the humble.
Psa 10:13 Why do the wicked condemn God? He has said in his heart, You will not judge.
Skinski,
You have clearly demonstrated the problem in two threads now.
You are not in a position to Biblically evaluate the authors you read because you don't understand the Scriptures.
You don't even know where to start to present your position Biblically, therefore, many of your statements on the Scriptures are just ridiculous, being based as they are in Biblical ignorance.
All you can do is present the views of other men, declaring those with whom you disagree to be wrong, and based in no sound understanding and exegesis of your own..
For example, you do not, because you cannot, exegete Ro 3:25-26 (presented here).
There can be no productive discussion with you about the Scriptures because you don't understand them and, therefore, have to base your opinions of what is right and wrong on the opinions of men.
You really should not be trying to discuss the Bible when you can only support your view with the opinions of men, and not with sound exegesis of the Scripture, in light of all the Scriptures.
You are simply defending the views of men, and not the Scriptures.
You should be in a theology discussion forum, not in a Bible discussion forum.
You have clearly demonstrated the problem in two threads now.
You are not in a position to Biblically evaluate the authors you read because you don't understand the Scriptures.
You don't even know where to start to present your position Biblically, therefore, many of your statements on the Scriptures are just ridiculous, being based as they are in Biblical ignorance.
All you can do is present the views of other men, declaring those with whom you disagree to be wrong, and based in no sound understanding and exegesis of your own..
For example, you do not, because you cannot, exegete Ro 3:25-26 (presented here).
There can be no productive discussion with you about the Scriptures because you don't understand them and, therefore, have to base your opinions of what is right and wrong on the opinions of men.
You really should not be trying to discuss the Bible when you can only support your view with the opinions of men, and not with sound exegesis of the Scripture, in light of all the Scriptures.
You are simply defending the views of men, and not the Scriptures.
You should be in a theology discussion forum, not in a Bible discussion forum.
Hi, Tommy4Christ,
Did you decide to take a pass on the following?
Would you like to address what the NT states on "righteous by proxy" in the following?
Ro 3:21-22 - "Now a righteousness from God, apart from lawkeeping (our own doing) has been made known.
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ (not by doing) to all who believe (not all who do).
Ro 3:17-19 - "if by the trespass of the one man death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of. . .the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men,
so also the result of one act of righteousness (the cross) was justification (righteousness) that brings life for all men.
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man (not through my own obedience) the many will be made righteous." (Ro 5:17-19)
Note that "justification which brings (not "gives") life for all men," is correctly understood "brings life for all men who are justified," not for all men who live, or that would contradict what the NT states elsewhere that justification/righteosness is only for those who believe in Jesus Christ (Ro 3:22).
Also note that the text is not paralleling the scope of justification, but the cause of justification, which is the cross.
So don't apply the parallel to what it is not addressing.
In these verses, Paul is paralleling the trespass of Adam with the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
Note that he says in v.18 that we are all condemned by Adam's trespass,
just as we are made righteous by Christ's obedience (not by our own obedience).
Christ was a second Adam (v.14; 1Co 15:45).
In one man we were made sinners, just as in one man we are made righteous.
Paul is drawing clear parallelisms of imputation in vv.18-19.
In both parallels, the outcome (guilt, righteousness) has nothing to do with what men did, or our involvement would not be of the same nature, and the parallelism would be destroyed.
The clear meaning is that Adam's guilt is imputed to us, just as (in the same way)
Christ's righteousness is imputed to us.
So. . .God's abundant provision is the gift of righteousness (v.17).
Righteousness is not achieved, it is only received, and then what is received within is acted out. (1Jn 3:5-10)
The gift of righteousness from God gives us the ability to do what is righteous.
Without God's gift, we would remain unable to do it.
Did you decide to take a pass on the following?
Would you like to address what the NT states on "righteous by proxy" in the following?
Ro 3:21-22 - "Now a righteousness from God, apart from lawkeeping (our own doing) has been made known.
This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ (not by doing) to all who believe (not all who do).
Ro 3:17-19 - "if by the trespass of the one man death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of. . .the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.
Just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men,
so also the result of one act of righteousness (the cross) was justification (righteousness) that brings life for all men.
For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man (not through my own obedience) the many will be made righteous." (Ro 5:17-19)
Note that "justification which brings (not "gives") life for all men," is correctly understood "brings life for all men who are justified," not for all men who live, or that would contradict what the NT states elsewhere that justification/righteosness is only for those who believe in Jesus Christ (Ro 3:22).
Also note that the text is not paralleling the scope of justification, but the cause of justification, which is the cross.
So don't apply the parallel to what it is not addressing.
In these verses, Paul is paralleling the trespass of Adam with the righteousness of Jesus Christ.
Note that he says in v.18 that we are all condemned by Adam's trespass,
just as we are made righteous by Christ's obedience (not by our own obedience).
Christ was a second Adam (v.14; 1Co 15:45).
In one man we were made sinners, just as in one man we are made righteous.
Paul is drawing clear parallelisms of imputation in vv.18-19.
In both parallels, the outcome (guilt, righteousness) has nothing to do with what men did, or our involvement would not be of the same nature, and the parallelism would be destroyed.
The clear meaning is that Adam's guilt is imputed to us, just as (in the same way)
Christ's righteousness is imputed to us.
So. . .God's abundant provision is the gift of righteousness (v.17).
Righteousness is not achieved, it is only received, and then what is received within is acted out. (1Jn 3:5-10)
The gift of righteousness from God gives us the ability to do what is righteous.
Without God's gift, we would remain unable to do it.
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You have asked me this before, the answer is once again. yes.
And it is through having that Baptism that I started to understand the turth of the new covenant. Namely:
The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says: [SUP]16 [/SUP]“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP]
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.”[SUP][[/SUP][SUP]c[/SUP][SUP]]
Heb10:16&17
Plus
[/SUP]You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. [SUP]3 [/SUP]You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
2Cor3:1-3
T
And it is through having that Baptism that I started to understand the turth of the new covenant. Namely:
The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says: [SUP]16 [/SUP]“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP]
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more.”[SUP][[/SUP][SUP]c[/SUP][SUP]]
Heb10:16&17
Plus
[/SUP]You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. [SUP]3 [/SUP]You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
2Cor3:1-3
T
P
And are you perfect as GOD is perfect?!? 
C'mon, now, really?
Regarding Rev. 2, which seems to hold you up, I just have this to say,
1 John 5
1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
5 Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
Yes! to obedience!
No! to a righteousness obtained in any way, shape, or form by us.
I don't think you understand (and in this I may be dead wrong) that the faith God gave you to believe in the Lord Jesus IS the victory that makes you an overcomer.
If that is incorrect, I sincerely apologize. ♥
I think you see a time coming wherein your obedience will be important, in the light of the events happening around you.
I just wonder if you know it's a done deal, done for you by the Son of God Himself.
We are kept by the power of God! (not our obedience in the flesh)
We don't have to wonder if we'll be able to stand--God will make us stand!
We don't have to wonder if we'll know what to do or to say in the face of real persecution;
God will put the words in our mouths, just as He does the works through us, 'for it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.' (if I may extrapolate that promise given the apostles)
You see, I probably don't know the scriptures as well as you do, though I've been reading since before you were born.
But I do know Who saved me, and Who keeps me, and Who causes me to obey, and Who will be faithful to ALL He has promised, and Who gets ALL the glory!
And that's so wonderful I would like every believer to know it, too.
C'mon, now, really?
Regarding Rev. 2, which seems to hold you up, I just have this to say,
1 John 5
1 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.
5 Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
Yes! to obedience!
No! to a righteousness obtained in any way, shape, or form by us.
I don't think you understand (and in this I may be dead wrong) that the faith God gave you to believe in the Lord Jesus IS the victory that makes you an overcomer.
If that is incorrect, I sincerely apologize. ♥
I think you see a time coming wherein your obedience will be important, in the light of the events happening around you.
I just wonder if you know it's a done deal, done for you by the Son of God Himself.
We are kept by the power of God! (not our obedience in the flesh)
We don't have to wonder if we'll be able to stand--God will make us stand!
We don't have to wonder if we'll know what to do or to say in the face of real persecution;
God will put the words in our mouths, just as He does the works through us, 'for it is not you who speak, but it is the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.' (if I may extrapolate that promise given the apostles)
You see, I probably don't know the scriptures as well as you do, though I've been reading since before you were born.
But I do know Who saved me, and Who keeps me, and Who causes me to obey, and Who will be faithful to ALL He has promised, and Who gets ALL the glory!
And that's so wonderful I would like every believer to know it, too.
P
and thus still in bondage, yeah?
failing to understand what Paul said after proclaiming his creds as a Jew, and all his good works of obedience to the Law:
7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, ( ♥ )
9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith (Phil 3)
All hail King Jesus! ♥
failing to understand what Paul said after proclaiming his creds as a Jew, and all his good works of obedience to the Law:
7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, ( ♥ )
9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith (Phil 3)
All hail King Jesus! ♥
and thus still in bondage, yeah?
failing to understand what Paul said after proclaiming his creds as a Jew, and all his good works of obedience to the Law:
7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, ( ♥ )
9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith (Phil 3)
All hail King Jesus! ♥
failing to understand what Paul said after proclaiming his creds as a Jew, and all his good works of obedience to the Law:
7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, ( ♥ )
9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith (Phil 3)
All hail King Jesus! ♥
Maybe it is just the churches I have been to(though I have been to many) but I'm just being honest. I don't hear preached in them much of what you and some others for example often write on cc. And what you write I pretty much agree with.
Maybe the churches on the whole in the states are different to the ones this side of the pond
But there seems a reticence to plainly preach much of what Paul wrote on grace
One American on another website thought it may be because the ministers were afraid people might see it as a license to sin/do what they want
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P
I'm sad to say that many ('specially the mega) churches here in the 'States don't preach the Gospel at all.
We seem to be all over the map this side of the pond, and of course, without the Gospel of Jesus Christ what else would happen?
Is this the great apostasy? idk...
Do you see a falling away in the UK? (or specifically England?)
Atheism is becoming almost trendy here.
We seem to be all over the map this side of the pond, and of course, without the Gospel of Jesus Christ what else would happen?
Is this the great apostasy? idk...
Do you see a falling away in the UK? (or specifically England?)
Atheism is becoming almost trendy here.
I'm sad to say that many ('specially the mega) churches here in the 'States don't preach the Gospel at all.
We seem to be all over the map this side of the pond, and of course, without the Gospel of Jesus Christ what else would happen?
Is this the great apostasy? idk...
Do you see a falling away in the UK? (or specifically England?)
Atheism is becoming almost trendy here.
We seem to be all over the map this side of the pond, and of course, without the Gospel of Jesus Christ what else would happen?
Is this the great apostasy? idk...
Do you see a falling away in the UK? (or specifically England?)
Atheism is becoming almost trendy here.
P
What I am seeing here in the States is more and more people are combining a watered down version of the gospel and mixing it with other forms of religion. Especially Buddhism or some form of New Age type of stuff.
(thank You, Lord)
but yes, I begin to see that as well, and it's no Gospel at all. (not the way it's preached)
and as far as the great apostasy, I s'pose that would depend on one's eschatological views.
mine are currently in flux.
P
What I am seeing here in the States is more and more people are combining a watered down version of the gospel and mixing it with other forms of religion. Especially Buddhism or some form of New Age type of stuff.
but here in the Hudson Valley it's all about atheism.
I'm sad to say that many ('specially the mega) churches here in the 'States don't preach the Gospel at all.
We seem to be all over the map this side of the pond, and of course, without the Gospel of Jesus Christ what else would happen?
Is this the great apostasy? idk...
Do you see a falling away in the UK? (or specifically England?)
Atheism is becoming almost trendy here.
We seem to be all over the map this side of the pond, and of course, without the Gospel of Jesus Christ what else would happen?
Is this the great apostasy? idk...
Do you see a falling away in the UK? (or specifically England?)
Atheism is becoming almost trendy here.
I have heard it said that people are deserting many of the mainline churches in Britain in record numbers, and some are starting up 'home groups' to meet regularly.
From personal exeriance I can say that I went to a 'born again' church for many years. But as I was young I did not read the NT beyond the Gospels. Years later when I finally read Paul's letters I could not believe what I was reading, I had never heard plainly preached/taught in the churches I had been to what he plainly wrote on Grace.
I would imagine the churches I went to would be broadly reflective of the majority where that was concerned.
Yes, it does seem there is a general falling away, but on the positive side, there does seem to be an awakening at the same time among some.
Interstingly I read a book 'All of Grace' by Charles Spurgeon. He did plainly preach what Paul wrote, his tracts were sold out in record time, and thousands went to hear him preach, as the starving and lost found hope in the message he proclaimed. I feel that when the message is proclaimed in its fulness tremnedous results must be seen, for there is great power in the truth of the cross
also, not sure where you live, Sarah (and don't feel you need to share that ♥)
but here in the Hudson Valley it's all about atheism.
but here in the Hudson Valley it's all about atheism.
me and my sheltered life.
(thank You, Lord)
but yes, I begin to see that as well, and it's no Gospel at all. (not the way it's preached)
and as far as the great apostasy, I s'pose that would depend on one's eschatological views.
mine are currently in flux.
(thank You, Lord)
but yes, I begin to see that as well, and it's no Gospel at all. (not the way it's preached)
and as far as the great apostasy, I s'pose that would depend on one's eschatological views.
mine are currently in flux.
Mark, all across the board it's a "return" to Law.
[not Moses anyway...something else]
this was completely predictable.
Reformed churches and teaching had to go...and be burned over by NEW things.
which of course had nothing to do with Biblical Christianity.
'Three Waves' were planned and have been accomplished.
all leading away from the simplicity of the Gospel of salvation, in what seem like separate and unrelated movements.
but in reality they are all the same movement.
when everyone is completely burned-out, and the True Gospel apparently "lost"....we are being offered the "way back".
it is neither Moses nor Christianity.
all traced back to the same origins.
[not Moses anyway...something else]
this was completely predictable.
Reformed churches and teaching had to go...and be burned over by NEW things.
which of course had nothing to do with Biblical Christianity.
'Three Waves' were planned and have been accomplished.
all leading away from the simplicity of the Gospel of salvation, in what seem like separate and unrelated movements.
but in reality they are all the same movement.
when everyone is completely burned-out, and the True Gospel apparently "lost"....we are being offered the "way back".
it is neither Moses nor Christianity.
all traced back to the same origins.
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