God's freewill vs. Mankind's election

[RickShafer]

Moses ......

So you are saying Moses decided to kill that man so he could live in the desert 40 years and then
be found by God(which he knew all the time).
Even after 40 years in sand he refused the call even at the burning bush.(Which shows his lack of faith)
Angering God.
But, if you say Moses decided to do all that on his own volition, we have no further comments.

Your proposition is ridiculous Abiding!

 

[Abiding]

So you are saying Moses decided to kill that man so he could live in the desert 40 years and then
be found by God(which he knew all the time).
Even after 40 years in sand he refused the call even at the burning bush.(Which shows his lack of faith)
Angering God.
But, if you say Moses decided to do all that on his own volition, we have no further comments.

Your proposition is ridiculous Abiding!

Geee that must have been fun for you! good worki rick.

 

[RickShafer]

Not at all.
But look at what it took for God to get Moses to believe Him.
Signs.
Signs, what did Jesus say about seeking signs?
Moses disbelieved God so much that God had to
prove His power at the burning bush not once but twice!
(Hand turned to leprosy and back again, and his rod turning into a snake and back again.) -
I'd reason that display might of shown a lack of faith on Moses' part.
God was in charge the whole time.
Moses was meek(Numbers 12:3) and acquiesced to it.
Faith comes from God alone, it is a gift lest anybody boasts about it.

 

[Abiding]

Im sure you cant read what you just wrote and see how
contradicting it is Rick.

Salvation is a gift...thats what the no boasting is about.
Faith is spiritual ill admit its a grace/gift also.
So what are we talking about?
That we are regenerated before we are given faith? Nope.
Like i said before Faith comes from the Word of God.
Its a response, just like unbelief is.

 

[Abiding]

Hebrews 11 list people who were given a "good report" because they "choose"
to have faith and not unbelief/wavering trusting God for a reward.

 

[PS]

Does the Word of God say we're 'quite sick' in our trespasses and sins?
That we're pretty ill, but do have the ability to incline our own will toward Him?

Martin Luther said something to this effect: (sorry, I don't have the book with me and wouldn't wake my husband for the world this morning )

paraphrased quote--"common grammarians and every little schoolboy in the street know that verbs of the imperative mood signify what ought to be done and nothing else. What can be done by man is signified by verbs of the indicative mood."

This is laughable to us, but such is the importance of knowing Hebrew, and especially Greek to the believer in rightly dividing the Word of God.
We see things like 'choose you this day whom you will serve' and assume that means we have the power to do what we are told...in other words, what we ought to do.

If God does not will that we incline toward holiness, and Himself, it cannot be done (John 6:44). We are dead, not merely sick, in sin before God works.
Not a proponent of the tulip complete, but I am a monergist. I wonder if the main trouble is that of a feeling of personal responsibility? We certainly are wholly responsible for our sin and rebellion.
But choosing Him?

2 Tim:25
with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth

Phil. 1:29
For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake

Matt. 16:16-17
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven

Acts 13:48
When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

Finally, what shall we do with Heb. 12:2?

Is Christ the Author of our faith?
Or are we?

2 Tim:2:25
With gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth (I'm trying to be gentle and lead people to the truth so that those of the Reformed faith will repent of their error.)

Phil. 1:29
For to you it has been granted for Christ's sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake (This is the cross Christians have to bear.)

Matt. 16:16-17
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”
And Jesus said to him, “Blessed are you, Simon Barjona, because flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but My Father who is in heaven. (Simon Barjona was being led by the Spirit as true believers are.)

Acts 13:48
When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. (The Jews rejected the message of Paul and Barnabas who turned to the Gentiles. The Gentiles rejoiced when they heard they were also part of God's plan of salvation which had been formulated at the foundation of the earth for all who believe.

Two verses earlier we read "It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you" This is what Paul and Barnabas were doing, IT WAS NECESSARY, without we hear the word of God we cannot believe. We never heard the word at the foundation of the earth. The apostles were preaching the Gospel of Good News so that all who hear it might believe. Notice the difference between Jew and Gentile, the Jews chose to reject the Gospel even though they were the elect (chosen) while the Gentiles believed and became the elect in Christ who then became destined for Glory AFTER THEY BELIEVED. Notice also that "believing" did not require any 'work.')

Heb 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. (Only the living can look to Jesus. This shows the folly of the reformed teaching, the unborn, the dead, cannot look to Jesus. It is the believer who is predestined for Glory; they are the elect. This was the plan from the foundation of the earth, that all who believe might be saved.

Notice also the previous verse which tells us how easily we can be tempted by sin. We are told to run the race with patience rather than be tempted away which shows the error of OSAS.)

 

[psychomom]

Okey dokey, then, PS.

I'll leave you alone now. ♥

 

[psychomom]

Of coarse!

Hebrews 11:24-28

[SUP]24 By faith Moses[/SUP], when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter,Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin,[SUP]26 [/SUP]esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in[SUP][a][/SUP] Egypt; for he looked to the reward.
[SUP]27 By faith he forsook[/SUP] Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible. [SUP]28 [/SUP]By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, lest he who destroyed the firstborn should touch them.


Hebrews 10:35-39

[SUP]35 [/SUP]Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward. [SUP]36 [/SUP]For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God, you may receive the promise:
[SUP]37 [/SUP]“For yet a little while,
And He[SUP][a][/SUP] who is coming will come and will not tarry.
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Now the[SUP][b][/SUP] just shall live by faith;
But if anyone draws back,
My soul has no pleasure in him.”[SUP][c][/SUP]

[SUP]39 [/SUP]But we are not of those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

I just wanted to thank you for bringing up that last passage from Hebrews.

I had never really looked into it properly, and see something I hadn't before!
(I always get a little excited when that happens, sorry for the exclamation point 'n all)

Those little letters and [c] made me look at why? they are there, and I see it's a quote from Habakkuk 2:4.
My NASB renders it this way---
Behold, as for the proud one, His soul is not right within him; But the righteous will live by his faith.

Strong's has it literally like this:
"Behold the proud is not right his soul; the righteous his faith will live"

Now I, along with Barnes, wonder why the translators chose to write it thus.

Mike, this has been argued by far better minds than mine, and for a r-e-a-l-l-y long time, now.
I would by far rather maintain my friendship with you than 'be right' or prove my point. ♥
And I don't know how to do that without further--um--upsetting? (poor word choice?) you.
I hope you knew that.

love,
el

 

[Abiding]

Mike, this has been argued by far better minds than mine, and for a r-e-a-l-l-y long time, now.

Ellie, yes i understand. Thats how i felt when i was changing up my eschatology. And in this
department as im realizing im disagreeing with john owen it doesnt feel right, but oh well.
At this point i think that is the lure. Step one foot over and your branded a heretic. Hmm.

As far as being friends, i have a friend thats a flaming pretribber. So im sure i can get along
with people who are caught up with philosophy. If my words sounded moody or agressive
in response to the idea of being regenerated before faith, well sorry. Thats the tough part
about forums without voice inflection, body language etc. But at times thats good too. ha

So...its been argued. I understand that. But i always stood aside. For like 40 years. And as of
late ive decided to not walk away as in the past. It doesnt bother me to lose friends, because thats
why the doctrines get accepted in the first place. Religious peer pressure is a major thing today.
Do i stand with jonathan edwards or a loon? ha see the problem?

But you can be sure that you didnt upset me. And that one of the reasons ive never been in this debate
is for the same reason youve described. But as of late ive heard the voice of the 5 pt calvinist say
tulip IS the gospel and all that dont hold to it are heretics. See? The game is on now! Ive never in my life
seen so much Pride but for those who say they cant boast.

 

[PS]

Okey dokey, then, PS.

I'll leave you alone now. ♥

I'm not sure I want to be left alone and I will explain why.

A Christian is someone who follows Jesus and he said to repent, believe, receive, confess and call on his name.

There are those who refuse to to this on the false grounds they have earned their salvation, which considering Jesus has done everything sounds like heresy.

My question is this, if people refuse to follow the teaching of Jesus, how in all honesty can they say they are following Jesus when they refuse to be obedient to him?

Thank you in advance for your response.

 

[cfultz3]

I'm not sure I want to be left alone and I will explain why.

A Christian is someone who follows Jesus and he said to repent, believe, receive, confess and call on his name.

There are those who refuse to to this on the false grounds they have earned their salvation, which considering Jesus has done everything sounds like heresy.

My question is this, if people refuse to follow the teaching of Jesus, how in all honesty can they say they are following Jesus when they refuse to be obedient to him?

Thank you in advance for your response.

to love, to obey, to honor...O' the blessings which are and will be betrowed upon the ones obedient to their Husband.

 

[tribesman]

Hebrews 11 list people who were given a "good report" because they "choose"
to have faith and not unbelief/wavering trusting God for a reward.

Why do you write choose (with quote marks) when its not in the text?

 

[Abiding]

Why do you write choose (with quote marks) when its not in the text?

Maybe i should have used brackets? Because its implied through the whole context by their actions
and by their revealed intent.

[h=3]Hebrews 11:25[/h]
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

 

[tribesman]

Maybe i should have used brackets? Because its implied through the whole context by their actions
and by their revealed intent.

Hebrews 11:25


[SUP]25 [/SUP]Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

Yes, this was Moses, long time after his calling. Absolutely normal for him to make that choice at that time.

But that's not your point with the "choose" in regards to these verses, is it?

 

[Abiding]

Yes, this was Moses, long time after his calling. ​Absolutely normal for him to make that choice at that time.

But that's not your point with the "choose" in regards to these verses, is it?

Well you didnt use quotations or brackets, you just stuck er in there. Is that your point in these verses?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes, this was Moses, long time after his calling. Absolutely normal for him to make that choice at that time.

But that's not your point with the "choose" in regards to these verses, is it?

I would disagree. Moses did this when he chose to kill an Egyptian. long before hs calling;

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Not at all.
But look at what it took for God to get Moses to believe Him.
Signs.
Signs, what did Jesus say about seeking signs?
Moses disbelieved God so much that God had to
prove His power at the burning bush not once but twice!
(Hand turned to leprosy and back again, and his rod turning into a snake and back again.) -
I'd reason that display might of shown a lack of faith on Moses' part.
God was in charge the whole time.
Moses was meek(Numbers 12:3) and acquiesced to it.
Faith comes from God alone, it is a gift lest anybody boasts about it.

But why did God not just force faith in him and make him believe. Why was it that God chose to prove to Moses he can trust God so moses would make his own decision to trust him??

 

[RickShafer]

(My response in Red Bible in blue)

Im sure you cant read what you just wrote and see how
contradicting it is Rick.
Nothing contradicts itself. It is your viewpoint that makes it seem so.

Salvation is a gift...thats what the no boasting is about.
Paul said the faith was what we weren't to boast about :
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast. The subject is how we are saved, - by grace through faith.
Not the state of being saved itself, but how it happens. Some would boast of their faith as if it
was their ability. Many do today. This is what Paul was addressing.

 

[tribesman]

Well you didnt use quotations or brackets, you just stuck er in there. Is that your point in these verses?

*sighs* I suggest you climb down from the fence and do some serious studying on monergism instead of subtly mocking it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

(My response in Red Bible in blue)

Im sure you cant read what you just wrote and see how
contradicting it is Rick.
Nothing contradicts itself. It is your viewpoint that makes it seem so.

Salvation is a gift...thats what the no boasting is about.
Paul said the faith was what we weren't to boast about :
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast. The subject is how we are saved, - by grace through faith.
Not the state of being saved itself, but how it happens. Some would boast of their faith as if it
was their ability. Many do today. This is what Paul was addressing.

I strongly disagree. We can not boast of faith, unless our faith is in ourself. that is what a works gospel is. it is trust or faith in self and our own ability to save us.

that is why Paul said the means of which we was saved was by grace through the agency of our faith. and not of works least any man should (have the ability) to boast. or take credit for his own salvation.

Man can not take credit, or boast of having faith in the work of another. he did nothing to earn it. and he did nothing to receive it. He trusted in the one who did the work. made the promise, and did the saving.