Is once saved always saved true? Or is it only giving false security?

savedsince14 · Feb 10, 2013

This is the deal based on King James Bible scripture. Galations 2:22 says," For I do not frustrate the grace of God, for if righteousness come by the law ,then Christ is dead in vain.". Put simply, if we can live a good enough life to get ourselves into heaven, therwe was no reason for Christ to die. We are eternally secure because God not only has to do the saving ,but He also has to keep us saved because ther is NO WAY we can live a good enough life to get ourselves there. God said," For by grace are ye saved through faith,AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES. It is the gift of God. NOT OF WORKS lest any man should boast." Now I know ther is a verse that says " work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." What God is saying here is to do the work God wants you to do BECAUSE OF your salvation, not to KEEP your salvation. If it were possible to lose salvation , here is a scenerio that would HAVE to be true. God gives salvation.Satan is who wants you to sin. Therefore if committing a sin takes away your salvation, then Satan would be more powerful than God because he would be able to take your salvation away from you. Second , if you could lose salvation, then God would NOT be the all-mighty, all-knowing God He is. Because He would have to be sitting in heaven with a pencil and eraser waiting on you to sin so He could erase your name out of the book of life and then wait on you to get saved again to put it back in there, not knowing when either would happen. The God I know of the King James Bible IS all-mighty and DOES know everything.He knows when I am going to sin before I do and when I do HE is always there to forgive me. My Bible tells me that NOTHING shall separate me fromthe love of God.Now as far as the ,"livivng any way you want to," goes, if my attitude towards my salvation is right,then I make an effort to pleaseGod . BUT I am still human snd I am going to make mistakes and God is there to forgive me of them. Or as one preacher put it ," Do I believe you can get saved and live the you want to? Absolutely.But my "want to"got saved to. God is not an indian giver. He does not give you something and then turn around and take it away .

Rock022 · Feb 10, 2013

Grandpa said:

Grandpa I only posted it because to fear and to tremble is a work because it is an action, others believe faith alone by itself leads to salvation.

Rock022 · Feb 10, 2013

savedsince14 said:

This is the deal based on King James Bible scripture. Galations 2:22 says," For I do not frustrate the grace of God, for if righteousness come by the law ,then Christ is dead in vain.". Put simply, if we can live a good enough life to get ourselves into heaven, therwe was no reason for Christ to die. We are eternally secure because God not only has to do the saving ,but He also has to keep us saved because ther is NO WAY we can live a good enough life to get ourselves there. God said," For by grace are ye saved through faith,AND THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES. It is the gift of God. NOT OF WORKS lest any man should boast." Now I know ther is a verse that says " work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." What God is saying here is to do the work God wants you to do BECAUSE OF your salvation, not to KEEP your salvation. If it were possible to lose salvation , here is a scenerio that would HAVE to be true. God gives salvation.Satan is who wants you to sin. Therefore if committing a sin takes away your salvation, then Satan would be more powerful than God because he would be able to take your salvation away from you. Second , if you could lose salvation, then God would NOT be the all-mighty, all-knowing God He is. Because He would have to be sitting in heaven with a pencil and eraser waiting on you to sin so He could erase your name out of the book of life and then wait on you to get saved again to put it back in there, not knowing when either would happen. The God I know of the King James Bible IS all-mighty and DOES know everything.He knows when I am going to sin before I do and when I do HE is always there to forgive me. My Bible tells me that NOTHING shall separate me fromthe love of God.Now as far as the ,"livivng any way you want to," goes, if my attitude towards my salvation is right,then I make an effort to pleaseGod . BUT I am still human snd I am going to make mistakes and God is there to forgive me of them. Or as one preacher put it ," Do I believe you can get saved and live the you want to? Absolutely.But my "want to"got saved to. God is not an indian giver. He does not give you something and then turn around and take it away .

If we are OSAS why are there falling angels? Were they not saved?

savedsince14 · Feb 10, 2013

This is why God said ,"Shun profane and vain babblings ." In other words, don't worry about what God is not going to explain to you. but concentrate on what God will tell you . People ask all the time ,"Wher did Cains wife come from," or "How did God make the world,' or 'What about Lot's wife." things that God has no intention of elaborating on any further than He already has. This is why God said ," Therefore LEAVING the principles of the doctrines of Christ, let us go on unto perfection. This , by no means , means to forget about about salvation , but grow up and concentrate on what you can do and not worry about questions you will probably never know the answer to.God 's salvation is forever. Again , if it were possible to lose salvation due to commiting an act of sin, we would have to stay on our knees all the time. Not take a shower , not go to work or anything. God covers it in three areas that cover our entire lives. He said ," The very thought of foolishness is sin."This covers our thought life. "To him that knoweth to do good ,and doeth it not , to him it is sin" This covers not doing right. "Transgression of the law is sin." This covers doing wrong. So we would have to stay on our knees every second because of our bad thoughts ,not to mention our bad things that we do and good things we don't do. You might find an answer to your question about angels and you might not. It depends on whether or not God wants you to know the answer or not.The way to find out what the Bible says is in 2nd Timothy 2:15,"Study to show thyself approved unto God ,a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. That's how I get my answers and that is why I am a FIRM believer in once saved ,always saved.

CDavid · Feb 10, 2013

[SUP]2 John:8-11[/SUP]
[SUP]8[/SUP] Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. [SUP]9[/SUP] Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. [SUP]10[/SUP] If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: [SUP]11[/SUP] For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.[SUP][/SUP]

Rock022 · Feb 10, 2013

Galatians 5
St Paul writing to the Jewish Christians says: Stand fast and do not submit AGAIN to a yoke of slavery. If OSAS or Faith alone will save you how is it that christians can fall again to slavery? The Apostle Paul is talking about spiritual slavery.
1 For freedom Christ has set us free. Stand firm, therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.

Now if you are saved, if you have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as your savior and you can not loose that salvation then this makes no sense, how can Christ be of no advantage of you if you are circumcised?
2 Listen! I, Paul, am telling you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to you.

If you are circumcised you are bound to keep the whole law. Why does their status change if they are already christians?
Does OSAS or Faith alone not suffice?
3 Once again I testify to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obliged to obey the entire law.

If OSAS and faith alone can not fall from grace, why this christians taught by the Apostles themselves can fall from grace?
4 You who want to be justified by the law have cut yourselves off from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

If the Apostle Paul Hopes to be save why do you doubt my faith [Rock022] when I say I hope to be saved?
5 For through the Spirit, by faith, we eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness.

Here has been my whole argument of Faith PLUS works all along. The ONLY thing that counts is what? Circumcised or uncircumcised {Law or no law} will be of no avail. Faith WORKING trough love {Faith PLUS Works}

6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything; the only thing that counts is faith working through love.

How can a christian loose if OSAS or Faith alone will save you? They where running well, not anymore.
7 You were running well; who prevented you from obeying the truth?

Remember now verse one says “For freedom Christ has set us free” and in verse seven says: “You were running well” We can understand this people have accepted Christ and been baptized. You can not say they were not saved because the very beginning of this letter says Christ has set them free.

tribesman · Feb 11, 2013

Rock022 said:

I don't know why you want (?) to turn this discussion into a discussion about the RC church per se.

Jesus had a very great respect for the Holy Scriptures (He said "scripture cannot be broken" - John 10:35). So did Paul. We have all reason to follow them in respecting scripture, who is complete to us, as for us being the sufficient and final authority for all matters of faith and practice.

Of course knowledge of the truth must grow. And we have to be as objective as we can in that process. You obviously believe your "elders" are always right...so I don't know what there is to discuss...want to bounce back and forth "I am right, you are wrong"? I think not so edifying for those seeking guidance here.

And you're not that very slow to point out that the reformation and protestantism is false...I'd avoid pie throwing. I can only say that I know catholic people who have studied up on their doctrine and found the wrongs and then acted upon it. I think that's great.

Rock022 · Feb 11, 2013

When did I claimed reformation and protestants are false? Read again what I said.

Out of all the millions of catholics you really believe none of us have look to see if what we are taught is false? I know I have look for the truth ,and so have the majority.

You are quick to point out what people belief false. Have you really taken the time to see why the catholic church really believes and why?

tribesman · Feb 11, 2013

Rock022 said:

You have opposed things like sola scriptura quiet a bit.

Rock022 · Feb 11, 2013

I oppose false teachings. Protestants have many good teachings.

By the way what do you think of post #526?

Rock022 · Feb 11, 2013

If OSAS is true... How does OSAS explains this?

Hebrews 6:4
For it is impossible to restore again to repentance those who have once been enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, [SUP]5 [/SUP]and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, [SUP]6 [/SUP]and then have fallen away, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding him up to contempt. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Ground that drinks up the rain falling on it repeatedly, and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. [SUP]8 [/SUP]But if it produces thorns and thistles, it is worthless and on the verge of being cursed; its end is to be burned over.

mark54 · Feb 11, 2013

Rock022 said:

Do we then nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather we uphold the law
Rom3:31

Likewise
Do we then nullify works by this faith?

Not at all! Rather we do true works that God wants.

If you understand the Gospel Paul is speaking of in Rom 3:31, you will understand the point being made.

As you did not answer my question, I assume you do not know if a person who believes in faith alone for salvation does more or less true works that God wants, than the person who professes salvation/Christianity hinges on works and faith

PS · Feb 11, 2013

If I may say something about 'works' and faith. Christianity teaches us compassion and the works Jesus spoke about in the Sermon on the Mount are these, "For I was an hungered, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me."

These are an expression of compassion in action and James in his epistle was writing about practical Christianity. Being a Christian involves responding to a need when we see it and that means work.

But there is another level which requires that we respond to the call of God and this is something that is more difficult to recognise but is about doors opening and by that I mean we might have a burden in our heart for someone or something, it might be a burden for the homeless for example and just by chance we hear of an empty house that is due for demolition and we think nothing more about it until we meet a total stranger who says something like "Isn't it a shame about that lovely house that is going to be pulled down, all it wants is a bit of work doing on it" and doors open and things happen and out of the blue almost, other people become involved and after a lot of work involving charities and local government and lots of red tape the project takes off and eventually from out of nowhere there is a home where there wasn't one before, and of course you don't need me to tell you who was opening the doors and changing peoples hearts, but the Lord uses His people to do his work here on earth.

That is too much for the ordinary person as we go about our daily life but there are lots of things we can do as individuals the thing to do is not to turn our back on it as some did in the parable of the Good Samaritan.

The minister of my daughters church several years ago received an invitation from someone in India to hold a series of meetings there. He responded and has gone back every year since and hundreds of people have received the Lord as their saviour. He responded to the Lord's calling. Sadly he died just before Christmas and he will be sorely missed, but God used him for the furtherance of His work, and I get so sad when I read on here of people refusing to believe in God, refusing to repent of their sins, refusing to confess their sins, refusing to accept God's gift of salvation because they mistakenly think repentance and coming to the Lord is Work. Things concerning the heart are what we are COMMANDED to do, the other things we do with our hands and the sweat of our brow are our works. May God bless you all.

homwardbound · Feb 11, 2013

Rock022 said:

Rock are you concerned about the osas people taking adventage of grace, having only a worldly sorrow that happened to the Corinthians and why Paul wrote the first letter to them and many others. Brother this grace poured on us osas people was never meant to be taken advantage of. It is meant to appreciate it. I do not see anyone trying to take advantage and see appreciation of osas, at very least I dofor I know,
[h=3]Hebrews 2:2-4[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]2 [/SUP]For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, [SUP]3 [/SUP]how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, [SUP]4 [/SUP]God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?

So Rock are you saying first that the love poured out is the works presented by Faith. Faith works through love. God's love right? and if I received God's love through Faith then I am saved right? Well I know I am, and works from God follow through me, but remember as I said before they are not my works, they are God's shed abroad in my heart from the love I have received
Ihopewe are finally communicating, for I really am looking for your motive to do works, are they God's works or your works?

homwardbound · Feb 11, 2013

Rock022 said:

Try reading this from Hebrews 5:11- 6:8
[h=3]Hebrews 5:11-6:8[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.
[h=3]Spiritual Immaturity[/h][SUP]12 [/SUP]For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. [SUP]14 [/SUP]But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
[h=3]The Peril of Not Progressing[/h]6 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, [SUP]2 [/SUP]of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And this we will do if God permits.

First off I am not saying this is your need or anyone's need here. What I am saying is those that believe in Christ whether OSAS or not or of any denomination, We all nemeat of the word this was written to those that believe and want to know God personally. TRhat is why it says in 6:2-3 if GOD permits. So everyone please go to God and ask for this meat of perfection n him, and see the truth of God's love poured out onto all the world that is why we are to leave these behiind [SUP]2 [/SUP]of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And this we will do if God permits.
You all as it says in the next verse there is no further repentance, this was verse 4 and at verse 6 it says [SUP]6 [/SUP]and then have fallen away, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding him up to contempt. Just maybe after tasting of those that tasted have not yet repented and now after playing Church have fallen away and come back and have fallen away and have come back. There is no further repentance one either comes to belief and believes or he just falls away because he never trulky believed to begin with
There is no further forgiveness none it is done what Christ did at the cross no further repentance one either believes or they don't and trust me for those that do believe works follow, but they are GOD works not man works. God is the only one to get the gloiry.

Rock022 · Feb 11, 2013

homwardbound said:

I do not say it brother the bible does in many many places. Read post #526 and #531. You can clearly be cut from the tree of life.

Heb 6:6 "and then have fallen away, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding him up to contempt"

You sound with a beautiful heart, this should not trouble you. I believe you are in the right path, just holding to a false believe. You might already be doing everything right, just do not go back to the Old ways. Can you agree that at any moment in your life you can go back to your old ways?

PS · Feb 11, 2013

homwardbound said:

Try reading this from Hebrews 5:11- 6:8
Hebrews 5:11-6:8

New King James Version (NKJV)

[SUP]11 [/SUP]of whom we have much to say, and hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.
Spiritual Immaturity

[SUP]12 [/SUP]For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles of the oracles of God; and you have come to need milk and not solid food. [SUP]13[/SUP]For everyone who partakes only of milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. [SUP]14 [/SUP]But solid food belongs to those who are of full age, that is, those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.
The Peril of Not Progressing

6 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, [SUP]2 [/SUP]of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And this we will do if God permits.

First off I am not saying this is your need or anyone's need here. What I am saying is those that believe in Christ whether OSAS or not or of any denomination, We all nemeat of the word this was written to those that believe and want to know God personally. TRhat is why it says in 6:2-3 if GOD permits. So everyone please go to God and ask for this meat of perfection n him, and see the truth of God's love poured out onto all the world that is why we are to leave these behiind [SUP]2 [/SUP]of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And this we will do if God permits.
You all as it says in the next verse there is no further repentance, this was verse 4 and at verse 6 it says [SUP]6 [/SUP]and then have fallen away, since on their own they are crucifying again the Son of God and are holding him up to contempt. Just maybe after tasting of those that tasted have not yet repented and now after playing Church have fallen away and come back and have fallen away and have come back. There is no further repentance one either comes to belief and believes or he just falls away because he never trulky believed to begin with
There is no further forgiveness none it is done what Christ did at the cross no further repentance one either believes or they don't and trust me for those that do believe works follow, but they are GOD works not man works. God is the only one to get the gloiry.

Heb 6:3-6 And this we will do if God permits. For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

(And this we will do if God permits.) This is providing they "have not fallen away" and returned to the old law, in which case it is impossible to restore them again to repentance.

homwardbound · Feb 11, 2013

Rock022 said:

Rock God will never forsake me nor leave me, God could do anything God wants to, but brother God is not a liar, man is flesh is. Flesh is atimate that flesh is God and desires to be God and actually became God on the very sad day that Adam and Eve ate for they died in the Spirit of God. And God because of his love had Mercy on them and clothed them. Today looking back at the cross Jesus restored humanity back to being alive in the Spirit of God by condemning all sin to the flesh and destroying that tree of evil that he hung on thus rose on the third to day to save those that come to belief in him and also be restored back in the Spirit of God dead to the flesh where all sin has been condemned to and alive to God forever more.
The problem and is well played out by the deceptor is keeping ones focus on whether they will sin or not, having a conscience of sin just as the first chosen were kept in never ever having their consciences purged from sin for they had to keep a record year after year after year. Then came Jesus in the fullness of time and went ot he cross as the last sacrifice for sin and the last shedding of blood for all time taking away the sin of the world in his Fathers sight so Father through the Holy Ghost can come and live in the ones that believe seeing each one that believes as perfect because Father sees this through his Son us as perfect so Father through the Holy Ghost then starts his work of love in and through us, God getting all the Glory, we are by free chopice just the vessel for God to use as God sees fit and this thew work that God gives us the vessel the credit for. this is the work that will not burn up and god will reward the believer as God sees fit, it is all God and none of me, you,or anyone else
Godjust love you ROCK,
Love homwardbound

Rock022 · Feb 11, 2013

Homeward Everything I have posted is from the NT, this are the Apostles themselves telling you this. I have not quoted OT on this subject at all. If Christ crucified is all we need to believe don;t you think the Apostles would have elaborated more on this?

The bible does not contradict itself, so if you can not understand how two opposites work for our salvation and decide to believe one over the other who is condemning who. Every time I as a catholic say something the first question is, where is that in the bible? I have answered, and I got plenty more on this subject of OSAS and Faith Only. Both are wrong. The church has been proving this since the very beginning of christianity with the apostles themselves. I hear all the time catholic teaching is false, when I prove it is correct people then want to justify their reasoning. It is spelled out clearly in the bible.

Homeward if you truly have repented and accepted Christ sacrifice you should have little worry of this. To say I believe something does not mean that is the way you feel.

Anecdote: A child believes the sky is purple and all that is blu for the child is purple and swears by it, but some one teaches this child the true colors and the child understands the sky is blue. Did the teaching changed the child? No not really, the child just knew the wrong name for that color. Now the child can communicate with clarity what colors he sees.

Now if the child was blind that is a different anecdote, and does change the life of that child.

I believe in my heart you know and do what is right with ought teaching it. You may teach OSAS or faith alone but you do not live by them. I hope that I am saved, but this is not a hopeless believe. I only hope because I submit my self completely to His mercy. If His mercy sends me to hell, then His judgment was just.

We confess this in every mass.

The Confiteor:

I confess to Almighty God,
and to you, my brothers and sisters,
that I have greatly sinned
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done
and what I have failed to do,
through my fault,
through my fault,
through my most grievous fault;
therefor I ask the blessed Mary ever-virgin,
all the angels and saints,
and, you my brothers and sisters,
to pray for me to the Lord our God.
Amen

99caravan · Feb 11, 2013

The Bible is clear that you can lose your salvation. Your name can be blotted out of the book of life, which meant it got in there first. Also, the Angels who did not keep their proper abode were later cast down into hell because of disobedience. Angels obviously got into Heaven, were saved, etc. then later were cast out. Satan and his armies were also cast out of Heaven due to disobedience and rebellion against God. All indicators that you can lose your salvation.

Is once saved always saved true? Or is it only giving false security?

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