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peterT
Guest
Matthew 11:17 And saying, We have piped unto you, and ye have not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented
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Abiding
Guest
Yes i think hes just. He hardened them because of unbelief. Just like He hardens EVERYONE for unbelief.
Therefore if He let them slide Hed have to let the whole world slide. SEE? If you want justice.
Refer to 2 thess 2:9-12
Romans explains this in detail!!! If they believe then they are grafted right back in. NO EXCEPTIONS!
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
This is not even true. And there can not be many gospels, Scripture says there is only one. And how can one have a right heart until they are saved? they can't
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
Yes, He did not prevent them from seeing it. He hardened their hearts like he always does. He confronted them with truth, and they rejected, the more they rejected, the easier it was..
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eternally-gratefull
Guest
The completion of the gentiles is the completion of the gentile kingdoms and prophesied by Daniel. Not that all gentiles will be saved, there is no support for this. Gentiles have always been saved and they always will be saved.
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Abiding
Guest
Read Isaiah 28 where paul was quoting from. Israel is no exception to any other nation.
When you turn your back on God in unbelief He will harden you. The believers He shows mercy.
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Therapon
Guest
Brother, it is improper exegesis to use one verse to negate the intent oif another. Both are the word of God. So the question remains: Is it just for God to blind His covenant people for 2000 years so they cannot see the Gospel and then send them to hell for not accepting the Gospel. Even I, a wretchedly sinful human, am more just and merciful than that.
According to Romans 11:8 the Jews as a people were given a total inability to see the Gospel. So were they blinded to be lost? Romans 11:11 says they were not.
So the question we should be asking is: Why did God blind the Jews from hearing the Gospel for almost 2000 years? The answer to all this is not in negatating the meaning of any verse, but in finding how this all fits together.
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Therapon
Guest
So God blinded the Jews to the Gospel for the 2000 years since the Cross and then sends them all to hell for not believing in a Gospel God blinded them from seeing? I worship a far more loving, merciful and just God than that.
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Abiding
Guest
What are you talking about i gave you a chapter and you respond that i gave you a verse?
No of coarse it isnt just. Thats why God never did that. That only happens to dispensationalists.
the 2000 year future thingy. The all Israel will be saved is not a future thing nor does it mean
everyone in the nation. Noone has been lost. If one was then all Israel will be saved would be a tall tail.
that's all your own personal interpretation, which you have so much invested in now - you're trapped.
a whole system built on a poorly understood passage.
and so much at stake....so many jews misled. and christians.
so powerless a Gospel. because somebody thinks they found something NEW.
Romans 11:31
so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.
Romans 11:32
For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.
Galatians 3:22
But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
Romans 11:31
so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy.
57AD
not 2013 or 2050.
now - Paul penned it in c 57AD
Romans 11
1I say then, God has not rejected His people, has He? May it never be! For I too am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel? 3“Lord, THEY HAVE KILLED YOUR PROPHETS, THEY HAVE TORN DOWN YOUR ALTARS, AND I ALONE AM LEFT, AND THEY ARE SEEKING MY LIFE.” 4But what is the divine response to him? “I HAVE KEPT for Myself SEVEN THOUSAND MEN WHO HAVE NOT BOWED THE KNEE TO BAAL.” 5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice
it is IN THE SAME WAY/MANNER/METHOD as the remnant in Elijah's day was saved - a remnant according to God’s gracious choice.
it is IN THE SAME WAY/MANNER/METHOD that "ALL ISRAEL" (a remnant according to God’s gracious choice) will be saved:
Galatians 3:22
But the Scripture declares that the whole world is a prisoner of sin, so that what was promised, being given through faith in Jesus Christ, might be given to those who believe.
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Abiding
Guest
Peter agrees with you Abiding:
Acts 15:11
Some men came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.”
No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."
i don't know what god you are talking about.
none of that is in Scripture.
or in History.
i'd re-read the parable of the old and new if i were you.
find out who Jesus is talking to...and what else He said to them.
it wasn't:
"Don't worry Faithful Old Testament Wine Skins...I won't make you perish in your sins by giving you Life Giving New Wine...I'll blind you and you'll be magically reincarnated or receive eternal life even though I recorded the opposite in the Scriptures, which are ALL ABOUT ME"
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Therapon
Guest
Very Good. If I understand you correctly, you agree that Jews during the Christian era can be saved withour recognizing Jesus as their Messiah. That's the point I've been trying to get across all along. <smile> Salvation for the Jews is not dependant on him having his doctrine updated, but on him having a humble and contrite heart towards God.
How will they be forgiven and made New?
Mercy and not Sacrifice, how will they learn what this means without accepting the Messiah?
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Therapon
Guest
Jews during the Christian era are saved in exactly the same way all the saints in the Old Testament were saved, by grace through faith. Salvation does not depend on having the right doctrine, but on having a humble and repentant heart towards God.
We in the New Testament era are not saved by knowing the four spiritual laws and saying the sinners prayer, but by coming to God and asking Him to forgive us for our sins, through the blood of His Son, Jesus. Now Old Testament saints didn't have that knowledge, but they had to have that same repentant heart, and God the Father who recognized His Son as crucified in eternity, accepted that same sacrifice for them. The blood of the Lord Jesus flows both ways in time . . . .
Micah 6:8 "He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth Jehovah require of thee, but to do justly, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with thy God?"
Despite all our dogmas to the contrary, notice that there are no additional hoops you have to jump through and that no doctrinal head knowledge is required. Of course, once the Holy Spirit makes biblical truth known to you, obedience to those truths is then required.
you've either got jews saved without the Holy Spirit making any biblical truth known to them; or you better extend that same gracious saved-without-biblical-truth to the Muslims you despise so much on behalf of THE CARNAL STATE OF ISRAEL.
does this sound anything like:
"You faithful Old Testament Wine Skins who say you have a repentant heart, and say you love the Father, and claim you recognize His Son as crucified in eternity, yet do not accept Me in Person....are good to go"?
Matthew 23
Seven Woes to the Scribes and Pharisees
1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples, 2“The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses’ seat, 3so practice and observe whatever they tell you—but not what they do. For they preach, but do not practice. 4They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear,a and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. 5They do all their deeds to be seen by others. For they make their phylacteries broad and their fringes long, 6and they love the place of honor at feasts and the best seats in the synagogues 7and greetings in the marketplaces and being called rabbib by others. 8But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers.c 9And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. 10Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. 11The greatest among you shall be your servant. 12Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.d 15Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of helle as yourselves.
16“Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’ 17You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred? 18And you say, ‘If anyone swears by the altar, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gift that is on the altar, he is bound by his oath.’ 19You blind men! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20So whoever swears by the altar swears by it and by everything on it. 21And whoever swears by the temple swears by it and by him who dwells in it. 22And whoever swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and by him who sits upon it.
23“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cumin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness. These you ought to have done, without neglecting the others. 24You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!
25“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.
27“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people’s bones and all uncleanness. 28So you also outwardly appear righteous to others, but within you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the tombs of the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous, 30saying, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ 31Thus you witness against yourselves that you are sons of those who murdered the prophets. 32Fill up, then, the measure of your fathers. 33You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell? 34Therefore I send you prophets and wise men and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify, and some you will flog in your synagogues and persecute from town to town, 35so that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of innocent Abel to the blood of Zechariah the son of Barachiah,f whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36Truly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.
~
The sages of the Talmud see a direct link between themselves and the Pharisees, and historians generally consider Pharisaic Judaism to be the progenitor of Rabbinic Judaism, that is normative, mainstream Judaism after the destruction of the Second Temple.
All mainstream forms of Judaism today consider themselves heirs of Rabbinic Judaism and, ultimately, the Pharisees.
wiki
~
oh yes! all the jews who reject (and are taught to hate) Jesus Christ BECAUSE of the Leaven of the Pharisees are a go for eternity....even though NO JEWS BELIEVE God will have A SON who is the Sacrifice....yes, it's an all-clear for eternal life.....
...because Therapon had his ego stroked by some Rabbi sometime who smooth-talked him into turning away THOSE AWFUL CHRISTIAN MISSIONARIES......WE DON'T NEED 'THAT MAN'!
Rabbinic Judaism Post 70AD is an EMPTY SHELL - it teaches magic; superstition and complete rejection of not only Moses and the prophets - but God Himself....because there's NOTHING left to believe in.....jews are now taught THEY are their own messiah.
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anyone is STILL considering this antisemitic nonsense that jews do NOT need to acknowledge the VERY SPECIFIC PERSON OF JESUS CHRIST, read this chapter very very carefully and see if Paul (a Hebrew of Hebrews EVER said ANYONE would inherit eternal life thinking they were covered under THE OLD COVENANT; Law; some OTHER Promise; having a sorry heart or any other thing....):
Galatians 4
1What I am saying is that as long as the heir is a child, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. 2He is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. 3So also, when we were children, we were in slavery under the basic principles of the world. 4But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. 6Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba,a Father.” 7So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.
Paul’s Concern for the Galatians
8Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.
12I plead with you, brothers, become like me, for I became like you. You have done me no wrong. 13As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you. 14Even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself. 15What has happened to all your joy? I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me. 16Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?
17Those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to alienate you [from us], so that you may be zealous for them. 18It is fine to be zealous, provided the purpose is good, and to be so always and not just when I am with you. 19My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you, 20how I wish I could be with you now and change my tone, because I am perplexed about you!
Hagar and Sarah
21Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.
24These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written:
“Be glad, O barren woman,
who bears no children;
break forth and cry aloud,
you who have no labor pains;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”b
28Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30But what does the Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.” 31Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.
~
is Paul talking about ISHMAEL and Islam?:
the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.
or Old Testament Wine Skins who refuse the New Wine?
anybody?
Galatians 4
1What I am saying is that as long as the heir is a child, he is no different from a slave, although he owns the whole estate. 2He is subject to guardians and trustees until the time set by his father. 3So also, when we were children, we were in slavery under the basic principles of the world. 4But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons. 6Because you are sons, God sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, the Spirit who calls out, “Abba,a Father.” 7So you are no longer a slave, but a son; and since you are a son, God has made you also an heir.
Paul’s Concern for the Galatians
8Formerly, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those who by nature are not gods. 9But now that you know God—or rather are known by God—how is it that you are turning back to those weak and miserable principles? Do you wish to be enslaved by them all over again? 10You are observing special days and months and seasons and years! 11I fear for you, that somehow I have wasted my efforts on you.
12I plead with you, brothers, become like me, for I became like you. You have done me no wrong. 13As you know, it was because of an illness that I first preached the gospel to you. 14Even though my illness was a trial to you, you did not treat me with contempt or scorn. Instead, you welcomed me as if I were an angel of God, as if I were Christ Jesus himself. 15What has happened to all your joy? I can testify that, if you could have done so, you would have torn out your eyes and given them to me. 16Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?
17Those people are zealous to win you over, but for no good. What they want is to alienate you [from us], so that you may be zealous for them. 18It is fine to be zealous, provided the purpose is good, and to be so always and not just when I am with you. 19My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you, 20how I wish I could be with you now and change my tone, because I am perplexed about you!
Hagar and Sarah
21Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.
24These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written:
“Be glad, O barren woman,
who bears no children;
break forth and cry aloud,
you who have no labor pains;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband.”b
28Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30But what does the Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.” 31Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.
~
is Paul talking about ISHMAEL and Islam?:
the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.
or Old Testament Wine Skins who refuse the New Wine?
anybody?
Luke 16
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side.f The rich man also died and was buried, 23and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house— 28for I have five brothersg—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”
The Rich Man and Lazarus
19“There was a rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20And at his gate was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores, 21who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover, even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side.f The rich man also died and was buried, 23and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side. 24And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’ 25But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Lazarus in like manner bad things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’ 27And he said, ‘Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father’s house— 28for I have five brothersg—so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.’ 29But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.’ 30And he said, ‘No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.’ 31 He said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.’”