The Trinity

[mark54]

Good point concerning the Holy Spirit. In our church our pastor usually only mentions the Holy Spirit occasionally. It was not until about a year ago after a series of Sunday school lessons that I even realized that the Holy Spirit IS a person. I had always thought of Him as "it". But, not as someone co-equal with God.

As far as your statement about the Holy Spirit and His work of conviction...I heard a TV "preacher" state that once you are saved...if you EVER feel guilty or convicted of something you've done or said..."Rebuke that in the name of Jesus! That is a direct assault from the devil..." Well, that kinda blew me away. I forget the verse but the Bible mentions something like "The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin, righteousness and" something else...I forget.

John16:8&9

I agree, it is the Holy Spirit who convicts us of our sin, which saddens me greatly when a new convert is often crushed by demands of almost sinless perfection by some. I believe, as I guess you do, the Spirit is already convicting the person of their imperfection/sin, and they will feel that acutely, without needing anyone else to make them feel even worse, but I am probably deflecting from the issue at hand
Thank you for your response
BTW
On another website I accidently referred to the Holy Spirit as 'it' I was instantly admonished. Haven't made that mistake again!

 

[mark54]

okay. Would you now answer it?

I like you Cfultz, so I hate to have to repeat myself, but you are not answering my question, simply ignoring it. When you answer my question I will answer another one of yours. That is how debate must work

 

[Donkeyfish07]

Anyone who believes that Jesus is not God, would you answer these two questions:

Do you believe that Jesus, who is the Word, created all things? (1 John)

Do you believe that only God is to be worshiped? (a saying from Jesus)

I'll answer that. I believe that Jesus is the Word as you do, and that all things were made by him and without him there was not anything made that was made.

I believe that only God and Jesus are both to be worshiped. Jesus submitted to the Father his whole life and prayed to the Father his whole life. He was a perfect example for us to follow. He is the Messiah, the Son of God, the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords but he is not God himself. I get the impression that people that believe that Jesus is God think that people who believe Jesus is not God somehow deny his divinity. This is not true at all. I believe that Jesus and God are one.....but not in the sense that they are the same exact individual person. There is a distinction that has to be made there.

 

[cfultz3]

I like you Cfultz, so I hate to have to repeat myself, but you are not answering my question, simply ignoring it. When you anmswer my question I will answer another one of yours. That is how debate must work

Yet those you are speaking to now have not answered that question to the best of my knowledge. Why this group division?

 

[mark54]

I'll answer that. I believe that Jesus is the Word as you do, and that all things were made by him and without him there was not anything made that was made.

I believe that only God and Jesus are both to be worshiped. Jesus submitted to the Father his whole life and prayed to the Father his whole life. He was a perfect example for us to follow. He is the Messiah, the Son of God, the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords but he is not God himself. I get the impression that people that believe that Jesus is God think that people who believe Jesus is not God somehow deny his divinity. This is not true at all. I believe that Jesus and God are one.....but not in the sense that they are the same exact individual person. There is a distinction that has to be made there.

Someone said that we worship the divinity of the Father in the Son, I quite liked that myself, but there are a variety of ways I guess you could approach it. I would say we worship the Father as the one true God, and Christ as our Lord and Saviour. But, we could not worship Christ as our Lord and Saviour, UNLESS he was possessed of the Father.
Don't know if that makes sense!
Hope it does.

 

[mark54]

Yet those you are speaking to now have not answered that question to the best of my knowledge. Why this group division?

I haven't noticed them asking me a specific question, but maybe they are and I am just dopey
BTW
I just answered it to someone else

 

[Anonimous]

Anyone who believes that Jesus is not God, would you answer these two questions:

Do you believe that Jesus, who is the Word, created all things? (1 John)

Do you believe that only God is to be worshiped? (a saying from Jesus)

1. Yes

2. Worship means reverence paid to a divine being. If Jesus was offered and accepted worship, then by doing so He was confirming His divinity. This is important because there are those who deny the deity of Christ, relegating Him instead to a lesser position than God. Yes, Jesus accepted worship. As the divine the second Person of the Trinity, He was and still is worshiped.

From the beginning of Jesus' life we see examples of Him being worshiped. As soon as the Magi laid eyes on the infant Christ, “they bowed down and worshiped Him” (Matthew 2:11). When Jesus made His triumphal entry into Jerusalem the Bible records the initial response He received: "So they took branches of palm trees and went out to meet him, crying out, ‘Hosanna! Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel!’" (Matthew 21:9; John 12:13) The word “Hosanna” ascribes all praise, honor, glory, and blessing to him who is being lauded. The type of behavior exhibited by the crowd is definitely a form of worship.

Just after Jesus, and even the Apostle Peter for a brief moment, amazed the disciples by walking on water they climbed into a boat where "those who were in the boat worshiped him, saying, Truly you are the Son of God’” (Matthew 14:33). Two more memorable examples of Jesus accepting worship occurred just after His resurrection. Mary Magdalene and some other women (Matthew 18:1; Mark 16:1; Luke 24:10) were on their way to tell the disciples of the resurrection when Jesus met them on their way. When they realized it was Him they "came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him” (Matthew 28:9).

Then there is the case of Thomas, who didn't believe Jesus had risen from the dead despite the other disciples testifying to that fact. It had been about a week since the resurrection and Thomas still doubted it. Jesus, knowing Thomas doubted appeared to him and showed him the nail marks and the wound on His side. How did Thomas respond? "Thomas said to him, ‘My Lord and my God!’” (John 20:28) In none of these instances do we see Jesus telling those worshiping Him to stop, as did mere men, and even angels, who were being worshiped wrongly by others (Acts 10:25-26; Revelation 19:9-10).

We continue to offer worship to Jesus today by offering ourselves to Him as a living sacrifice—offering ourselves to God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to do with as He sees fit (Romans 12:1-2). Jesus said "God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth” (John 4:24). We worship God in spirit and truth by obedience to His commands. Worship is not solely about bowing to Jesus, throwing palm branches at His feet or singing and shouting about our love for Him. Worship is about responding to God's love for us by resting from our works as He completes the work He has begun in us.

 

[cfultz3]

I'll answer that. I believe that Jesus is the Word as you do, and that all things were made by him and without him there was not anything made that was made. Thus, He is the Creator.

I believe that only God and Jesus are both to be worshiped. Yes, there is but one God and only God is to be worshiped.

And we have:

Rev 14:7 ....Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.....worship the Creator of all things

And to answer that question from Mark:

Bearing the above in mind, will you utterly condemn as unfit to be a minsiter any preacher who refuses to plainly state from, the pulpit that if a person believes Jesus is the Son of God, but not God Himself they cannot be saved/inherit eternal life with that belief and such a belief means a person is condemned and will go to hell

To say the Word is not God is to deny His glory He had before He BECAME the Son in the flesh.

If God commanded the angels to worship the Son, then either God gave us another god or the Word, who is Jesus in the flesh, is God.

If the Word was the Word before He became the Son, then He remained the Word when He became the Son and RECEIVED BACK the same glory He had before He went back to Heaven in His humanity.

If Jehovah (the LORD) is our Savior and if Christ came to be our Savior, then Jesus, the Word, is either Jehovah or we have two Saviors.

If Christ is Lord and Jehovah is LORD, then how many lords do we have?

To answer your question: to say that Jesus, the WORD, is not God, then that jesus is a mockery, when we are told that Jehovah is our Savior.

 

[Bowman]

Really
Christ plainly stated a person must believe he is the son of God to inherit eternal life, he never went beyond that

Show us...

Can a person being led of the Holy Spirit refuse to accept the requirement of belief Christ himself laid down as to who a person must believe him to be to inherit eternal life by adding to it?

Perhaps you need to read what scripture records regarding true worship...

Only in Trinitarian terms if the Spirit of God can contradict the word of God
Then again in Trinitarian terms that must mean God contradicts God and the belief collapses.

So who is the counterfiet?

Show me a single, solitary scripture which supposedly thwarts the Trinity...and detail to us how it supposedly does.

This should be fun...

BTW
Your respnse adressed nothingt in my post that I could see

Then you can't see.

Keep riding that same old worn-out excuse...it looks good on you...

 

[Anonimous]

John16:8&9

I agree, it is the Holy Spirit who convicts us of our sin, which saddens me greatly when a new convert is often crushed by demands of almost sinless perfection by some. I believe, as I guess you do, the Spirit is already convicting the person of their imperfection/sin, and they will feel that acutely, without needing anyone else to make them feel even worse, but I am probably deflecting from the issue at hand
Thank you for your response
BTW
On another website I accidently referred to the Holy Spirit as 'it' I was instantly admonished. Haven't made that mistake again!

When I first surrendered myself I was alone...I knew I needed someone more than myself. I felt it for months...and knew exactlt what I needed to do. But, I would not submit. I thought and thought about what was stopping me. That's when it finally cam to me. The only thing that was hindering me...was me. My pride that I really needed someone I could not see, feel or touch...maybe that was my Thomas day.

 

[Bowman]

I only answered in response to Bowman to see if this "uni" understood the premise of the Trinity. Apparently, I do understand. I believe John 3:16-18 among other things!

Then you likewise must accept John 4.23-24.

 

[Bowman]

I would like to interject a thought here. When Jesus was on the cross the thief asked Jesus to remember him when he came into His kingdom. Apparently the thief came to believe in Jesus. Maybe...he's heard Jesus speak in the past...maybe not? Jesus said that today he would be with Him in paradise. None of the three were in a position to discuss the philosophical ideas at the time. The thief simply believed on Jesus and was with Him later on after he was dead. To me...and I could be wrong here...the main thing is to believe in Jesus. Maybe that should be believe "on". I think there is a difference. I often wonder in the early church when everything was exciting and new for them if they sat around disputing. Don't get me wrong, please. We have difference of opinions in our church. Most are petty and we have some that stick by their opinions. Jesus has to remain the focus. People who have never heard the gospel or are looking for answers are either discouraged and leave or they decide if this is the way Christians act then why be a part of it.

We have to ask outselves why it was that the Jews who understood and studied their scriptures knew immediately that Jesus was God.....while other Jews did not.

What did some of the Jews know that the others did not?

 

[mark54]

Show us...






Perhaps you need to read what scripture records regarding true worship...






Show me a single, solitary scripture which supposedly thwarts the Trinity...and detail to us how it supposedly does.

This should be fun...







Then you can't see.

Keep riding that same old worn-out excuse...it looks good on you...

This is ridiculous Bowman, you did not even address the question, neither have you answered the question I stressed I wanted answered before I would answer other questions, neither have you so far produced a sermon from your church where the minister plainly states if you simply believe Christ is the son of God but not God Himself you cannot be saved/are damned and will go to hell
But you then keep compliaining I do not answer your questions
Here
John3:16, 17, 18, John6:40

1John 4:15
Is that enough?

Now before you constantly accuse me of not answering your questions
PLEASE ANSWER THE ONE I ASKED YOU TO IN THE FIRST PLACE
And when you do, try and respond to the question, and when you do, do not evade it as you did the last one. That is two I am now waiting for responses to

 

[Anonimous]

Isn't it cool that one day, we can all sit around at the feet of Jesus for eternity and have Him explain all this to us directly. Then we can seek each other out up there and say, "See...I told you so..." Ha Ha

 

[Bowman]

This is ridiculous Bowman, you did not even address the question, neither have you answered the question I stressed I wanted answered before I would answer other questions,

Prove that you have not been answered.

neither have you so far produced a sermon from your church where the minister plainly states if you simply believe Christ is the son of God but not God Himself you cannot be saved/are damned and will go to hell

Since when was I supposed to produce a sermon for you?

More excuses...

But you then keep compliaining I do not answer your questions

No.

That's your job.

Here
John3:16, 17, 18, John6:40

1John 4:15
Is that enough?

And?

Anyone can post a reference to a verse....but few can actually defend their take on it....don't be shy...

 

[Bowman]

Isn't it cool that one day, we can all sit around at the feet of Jesus for eternity and have Him explain all this to us directly. Then we can seek each other out up there and say, "See...I told you so..." Ha Ha

The only thing is that the ones who get it wrong while on earth will never make it to Heaven. to make that discussion.

 

[mark54]

Prove that you have not been answered.




Since when was I supposed to produce a sermon for you?

More excuses...






No.

That's your job.







And?

Anyone can post a reference to a verse....but few can actually defend their take on it....don't be shy...

As you clearly are not prepared to answer any questions I will have to leave it there

But I will quote one of them for you

If anyone believes Jesus IS THE SON OF GOD, God lives in him and he in God(they are saved)
1John 4:15


That is very plain and clear scripture

Now you produce one scripture FROM THE ENTIRE BIBLE that states a person must believe Christ is the one true God Himself to inhehrit eternal life/Be saved/receive salvation

 

[Donkeyfish07]

And we have:

Rev 14:7 ....Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.....worship the Creator of all things

And to answer that question from Mark:


To say the Word is not God is to deny His glory He had before He BECAME the Son in the flesh.

If God commanded the angels to worship the Son, then either God gave us another god or the Word, who is Jesus in the flesh, is God.

If the Word was the Word before He became the Son, then He remained the Word when He became the Son and RECEIVED BACK the same glory He had before He went back to Heaven in His humanity.

If Jehovah (the LORD) is our Savior and if Christ came to be our Savior, then Jesus, the Word, is either Jehovah or we have two Saviors.

If Christ is Lord and Jehovah is LORD, then how many lords do we have?

To answer your question: to say that Jesus, the WORD, is not God, then that jesus is a mockery, when we are told that Jehovah is our Savior.

Luke 18:19

"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God."

If Jesus is God, why does he say that?

John 20:17

"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God"

Also, Jesus is also referred to as the Son of Man. God is obviously not the Son of Man.

Psalm 8:4

"What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?"

Yes they are indeed one but they are also individuals.

Hebrews 5:5

"So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee."

1 Corinthians 11:3

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

There are plenty of verses that show you that are individuals. Here are some that show you they are one and abide in each other.

John 1:1-4

"
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.'

John 14:9-10

"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?"

"Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."

Jesus did not come to do his own will, but the Father's will who sent him. God dwells in Jesus and they abide in each other but Jesus made it clear that he was honoring the Father, was sent by the Father, and that God is the one who does the works. They aren't the same person

 

[mark54]

When I first surrendered myself I was alone...I knew I needed someone more than myself. I felt it for months...and knew exactlt what I needed to do. But, I would not submit. I thought and thought about what was stopping me. That's when it finally cam to me. The only thing that was hindering me...was me. My pride that I really needed someone I could not see, feel or touch...maybe that was my Thomas day.

It may have taken time to give up on your pride, but I am sure that surrendering of it has lasted.
You are a great example of Christianity on this website
God BLEss

 

[cfultz3]

Luke 18:19

"And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God."

If Jesus is God, why does he say that?

John 20:17

"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God"

Also, Jesus is also referred to as the Son of Man. God is obviously not the Son of Man.

Psalm 8:4

"What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?"

Yes they are indeed one but they are also individuals.

Hebrews 5:5

"So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee."

1 Corinthians 11:3

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

There are plenty of verses that show you that are individuals. Here are some that show you they are one and abide in each other.

John 1:1-4

"
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.'

John 14:9-10

"Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?"

"Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works."

Jesus did not come to do his own will, but the Father's will who sent him. God dwells in Jesus and they abide in each other but Jesus made it clear that he was honoring the Father, was sent by the Father, and that God is the one who does the works. They aren't the same person

You have said your peace and I have said mine. As for me, If the Word is the Creator, then I shall worship my Creator.
If there is no debate about the Spirit and the Father being God, how then can it be said that the Word is not God, when there are three who bears record in Heaven.

I humble bow out.