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A
Mark she already asked you to reask. Its nothing but pride to me that has had you here all day boasting over and over that noone can answer your question. I think its just shameful what your doing. And you have been answered.
I see nothing here for edification. I see nothing here for anything but for you to have time in the limelight.
Even tho i see your point, which i did right off. What good is it? Huh?
I see nothing here for edification. I see nothing here for anything but for you to have time in the limelight.
Even tho i see your point, which i did right off. What good is it? Huh?
H
Hmmm...I have answered your question, you found the answer insufficient, and have apparently felt the need to say t that I haven't answered your question at all.
Let's just focus on the scriptures that you provided for a moment. John 3:16, we'll start there. Jesus is the 'Only Begotten Son' of God. Right? Does that not imply that Jesus would have to have the same nature as God in order to be the 'Only Begotten Son' of God?
John 17:3 has drawn a distinction between God and the MAN Jesus Christ, complete with His redemptive work on the cross. It could just as well read...."Now this is eternal life that they may know you (the Triune God) the Only True God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." In all fairness...
Just because you don't like the answer, doesn't mean I haven't answered it...
Do I have to pick one of your conclusions? Because I think that your statement is based off of a false assumption that the apostles did not find Jesus' identity to be important. Why would John record that Jesus (the Word) is God, if it wasn't important? Why would Luke write Acts. 4:12, if Jesus' identity was not important? Do you think that the 'beloved physician' was simply saying that the NAME of Jesus is what saves, or was he talking about His identity? If the bible is God's revelation to His people, then everything written in it is true..right? Does the entire bible attest to the idea that Jesus is NOT God? The apostles all put amazing emphasis on knowing Jesus Christ...on the power of His name and His redemptive work on our behalf. All of that is meaningless if you don't know WHO Jesus Christ is.
Mark, if you truly believe that Jesus is not God then please offer explanations as to why the apostle John found it significant to record such passages as John 1:1-2 and 20:28.
"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins." John 8:24
I didn't say that I haven't answered your question...you said that. I said that I hoped I had answered it sufficiently. Oh...and I'm still waiting for that 'very plain scripture' that will show me that Jesus' identity is not important. You should have no trouble finding it, since your theology is based on the plain word.
Let's just focus on the scriptures that you provided for a moment. John 3:16, we'll start there. Jesus is the 'Only Begotten Son' of God. Right? Does that not imply that Jesus would have to have the same nature as God in order to be the 'Only Begotten Son' of God?
John 17:3 has drawn a distinction between God and the MAN Jesus Christ, complete with His redemptive work on the cross. It could just as well read...."Now this is eternal life that they may know you (the Triune God) the Only True God and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." In all fairness...
Just because you don't like the answer, doesn't mean I haven't answered it...
Do I have to pick one of your conclusions? Because I think that your statement is based off of a false assumption that the apostles did not find Jesus' identity to be important. Why would John record that Jesus (the Word) is God, if it wasn't important? Why would Luke write Acts. 4:12, if Jesus' identity was not important? Do you think that the 'beloved physician' was simply saying that the NAME of Jesus is what saves, or was he talking about His identity? If the bible is God's revelation to His people, then everything written in it is true..right? Does the entire bible attest to the idea that Jesus is NOT God? The apostles all put amazing emphasis on knowing Jesus Christ...on the power of His name and His redemptive work on our behalf. All of that is meaningless if you don't know WHO Jesus Christ is.
Mark, if you truly believe that Jesus is not God then please offer explanations as to why the apostle John found it significant to record such passages as John 1:1-2 and 20:28.
"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am, you will die in your sins." John 8:24
I didn't say that I haven't answered your question...you said that. I said that I hoped I had answered it sufficiently.
Oh...and I'm still waiting for that 'very plain scripture' that will show me that Jesus' identity is not important. You should have no trouble finding it, since your theology is based on the plain word. OK I will tell you.
The Holy Spirit fully resides in the body of CHRIST(not a body of human flesh) If you want a biological discussion as to how that body is made up I am not your man.
The Holy Spirt is the Spirit of God's prescence, (Isiah63:9)
When Christ walked this earth the spirit was on him in BODILY FORM, and he said. If you have seen me you have seen the father. In respect of the Fathers nature/attributes etc.
I and the Father are one John10:30
“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, [SUP]21[/SUP]that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. [SUP]22 [/SUP]I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one AS we are one: [SUP]23 [/SUP]I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity
How can you and I be one?
We cannot be one person, we are two unique individuals, two seperate people
There is only one way you and I could be one-in the Spirit
Then make my joy complete, by being like minded, having the same love, being one in Spirit and purpose
Phil 2:2
That is the only way we can be as one IN THE SPIRIT, and we can be united in agreement only in the Holy Spirit.
Only in the Spirit can we be in Father and son and they in us , there is no other way. And as we can be in them, they are in each other
And Christ prayed in this onenes we may be brought to unity. Again only in the Holy Spirit can we be as one, or in unity
And Jesus said
That they may be one AS we are one
The Holy Spirit fully resides in the body of CHRIST(not a body of human flesh) If you want a biological discussion as to how that body is made up I am not your man.
The Holy Spirt is the Spirit of God's prescence, (Isiah63:9)
When Christ walked this earth the spirit was on him in BODILY FORM, and he said. If you have seen me you have seen the father. In respect of the Fathers nature/attributes etc.
I and the Father are one John10:30
“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, [SUP]21[/SUP]that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. [SUP]22 [/SUP]I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one AS we are one: [SUP]23 [/SUP]I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity
How can you and I be one?
We cannot be one person, we are two unique individuals, two seperate people
There is only one way you and I could be one-in the Spirit
Then make my joy complete, by being like minded, having the same love, being one in Spirit and purpose
Phil 2:2
That is the only way we can be as one IN THE SPIRIT, and we can be united in agreement only in the Holy Spirit.
Only in the Spirit can we be in Father and son and they in us , there is no other way. And as we can be in them, they are in each other
And Christ prayed in this onenes we may be brought to unity. Again only in the Holy Spirit can we be as one, or in unity
And Jesus said
That they may be one AS we are one
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H
Mark, most churches have a statement of faith which tells an attendant, or a member, what it is that church believes. I said that I would not 'utterly condemn any minister for any reason'. And, I even gave you my reason as to why that is. IMO - if a minister of a church, explicitly states that Jesus Christ is not God, then that minister is leading his flock astray. Does God call me to condemn the lost? God calls me to love them. Sorry if you find that 'appalling'.
Also, most Christian churches hold to the doctrine of the Triune God - it is right there in their statement of Faith. And, it is always prevalent in the gospel message. Regardless, in most Christian churches, the fact that Jesus is God is preached all the time and in a variety of context'.
Does that mean that you don't want to hear my answer...or that even if I do answer your going to pretend that I didn't? Just kidding. hehe
Like I stated, christian churches teach Jesus is God all the time, and in a variety of different context'. I was answering under the impression that a minister would knowingly, leave out the fact that Jesus is God - for whatever reason, he is under an obligation to tell the whole truth. Quite honestly, if a minister doesn't believe Jesus is God, then he needs to get out of ministry and spend some more time reading his bible.
Also, most Christian churches hold to the doctrine of the Triune God - it is right there in their statement of Faith. And, it is always prevalent in the gospel message. Regardless, in most Christian churches, the fact that Jesus is God is preached all the time and in a variety of context'.
Does that mean that you don't want to hear my answer...or that even if I do answer your going to pretend that I didn't? Just kidding. hehe
Like I stated, christian churches teach Jesus is God all the time, and in a variety of different context'. I was answering under the impression that a minister would knowingly, leave out the fact that Jesus is God - for whatever reason, he is under an obligation to tell the whole truth. Quite honestly, if a minister doesn't believe Jesus is God, then he needs to get out of ministry and spend some more time reading his bible.
Mark, most churches have a statement of faith which tells an attendant, or a member, what it is that church believes. I said that I would not 'utterly condemn any minister for any reason'. And, I even gave you my reason as to why that is. IMO - if a minister of a church, explicitly states that Jesus Christ is not God, then that minister is leading his flock astray. Does God call me to condemn the lost? God calls me to love them. Sorry if you find that 'appalling'.
Also, most Christian churches hold to the doctrine of the Triune God - it is right there in their statement of Faith. And, it is always prevalent in the gospel message. Regardless, in most Christian churches, the fact that Jesus is God is preached all the time and in a variety of context'.
Does that mean that you don't want to hear my answer...or that even if I do answer your going to pretend that I didn't? Just kidding. hehe
Like I stated, christian churches teach Jesus is God all the time, and in a variety of different context'. I was answering under the impression that a minister would knowingly, leave out the fact that Jesus is God - for whatever reason, he is under an obligation to tell the whole truth. Quite honestly, if a minister doesn't believe Jesus is God, then he needs to get out of ministry and spend some more time reading his bible.
Also, most Christian churches hold to the doctrine of the Triune God - it is right there in their statement of Faith. And, it is always prevalent in the gospel message. Regardless, in most Christian churches, the fact that Jesus is God is preached all the time and in a variety of context'.
Does that mean that you don't want to hear my answer...or that even if I do answer your going to pretend that I didn't? Just kidding. hehe
Like I stated, christian churches teach Jesus is God all the time, and in a variety of different context'. I was answering under the impression that a minister would knowingly, leave out the fact that Jesus is God - for whatever reason, he is under an obligation to tell the whole truth. Quite honestly, if a minister doesn't believe Jesus is God, then he needs to get out of ministry and spend some more time reading his bible.
What i can tell you is this, and I first went to a church 50 years ago
At least 90% of churchgoers(protestant anyway) will happily accept a person as a Christian if they solely believe Jesus is the son of God, it is probably quite a bit higher than 90%, but I will say that figure. And why wouldn't they?
My sister goes to a C of E church, she is very friendly with the minister's wife and she simply believes Christ is the son of God, not God Himself. Her son is a Baptist minister and he doesn't tell her she must change her opinion.
So, the reason the figure is as high as it is of people who simply accept a person with my views is as follows:
Ministers do not stress otherwise, they are not stupid, and do not have the luxury of working in cyberspace tapping away on their keyboards. As a minister said to me
If I preach that(the constant question I have asked tonight) I would empty my church of nearly all the sincere Christians in it.
That's the truth!
But there is another reason. People on the whole who come onto these websites ARE NOT reflective of the average churchgoer, of that I can assure you
Do you think the average churchgoer has heard of the ontological/economic Trinity?
Do you think they spend time considering the pre trib rapure, the book of Revelation?
OSAS?
They wouldn't give it a thought. And yet, people on these websites will often tell you you are a heretic if you have wrong opinions of many of these subjects, subjects the average church goer would never think about, that's a fact
It is a different world, believe me. those sitti g in their pews do not know a quarter of the doctrine people do on these websites, and you know what, how blessed they are not to
For they, though they know less theology know what is more important than most who do study it greatly on these websites
For they would not countenance condemning anyone for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth, the thought would horify them
Now many who come on these websites have striven greatly to learn of scholars and theologians, and I wonder how many of them firstly got down on their knees and begged God through thev Spirit to show them truth, relying totally on the Spirit for learning. And how many delved into theology because that is simply what they revelled in doing
Sadly, in so many cases the more they have crammed into their heads, the further away they have gone from simple, but potent truth.
The little grwey cells will help no one learn the spiritual. But you see, for the theologian and scholar simple is no longer enough, and that is what went wrong with faith all those years ago.
Christianity for the majority is based on the nicene creed, not the Bible.
So that is why people make the pronouncements on here the ministers won't make, and the churchgoers won't expect from anyone. For the ministers on the whole understand the spiritual reality, the head theologist cannot, it is beyond them
Mark, most churches have a statement of faith which tells an attendant, or a member, what it is that church believes. I said that I would not 'utterly condemn any minister for any reason'. And, I even gave you my reason as to why that is. IMO - if a minister of a church, explicitly states that Jesus Christ is not God, then that minister is leading his flock astray. Does God call me to condemn the lost? God calls me to love them. Sorry if you find that 'appalling'.
Also, most Christian churches hold to the doctrine of the Triune God - it is right there in their statement of Faith. And, it is always prevalent in the gospel message. Regardless, in most Christian churches, the fact that Jesus is God is preached all the time and in a variety of context'.
Does that mean that you don't want to hear my answer...or that even if I do answer your going to pretend that I didn't? Just kidding. hehe
Like I stated, christian churches teach Jesus is God all the time, and in a variety of different context'. I was answering under the impression that a minister would knowingly, leave out the fact that Jesus is God - for whatever reason, he is under an obligation to tell the whole truth. Quite honestly, if a minister doesn't believe Jesus is God, then he needs to get out of ministry and spend some more time reading his bible.
Also, most Christian churches hold to the doctrine of the Triune God - it is right there in their statement of Faith. And, it is always prevalent in the gospel message. Regardless, in most Christian churches, the fact that Jesus is God is preached all the time and in a variety of context'.
Does that mean that you don't want to hear my answer...or that even if I do answer your going to pretend that I didn't? Just kidding. hehe
Like I stated, christian churches teach Jesus is God all the time, and in a variety of different context'. I was answering under the impression that a minister would knowingly, leave out the fact that Jesus is God - for whatever reason, he is under an obligation to tell the whole truth. Quite honestly, if a minister doesn't believe Jesus is God, then he needs to get out of ministry and spend some more time reading his bible.
It is the Spirit that leads into truth, which brings me onto something else. If you are led of the Holy Spirit to believe a person MUSTaccept Christ is God Himself unto salvation, you are contradicting the requirementof belief Christ himself laid down as to who a person must believe him to be toinherit eternal life. That must mean the Spirit of God can contradict the wordof God, In Trinitarian terms God then contradicts God and the belief collapses,simple. But you cannot accept that simple truth can you? So why do you insistunlike the vast majority of churchgoers a person believes Christ is God himselfunto salvation? The Bible does not demand it, neither do the vast majority of ministersin the Trinitarian churches, so why do you and others demand it on these websites?Only one answer possible. The theologians and scholars you follow and thelittle grey cells, for the HOLY Spirit could never, it is it is impossible lead anyone to contradict theplain requirement of belief Christ himself laid down as to who a person must believehim to be to inherit eternal life. This is what a highly intelligent man wroteto Christians:
Do not deceive yourselves. If any one ofyou thinks he is wise by the standards of this age, he should become a “fool”so that he may become wise. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For thewisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “Hecatches the wise in their craftiness”[SUP][a][/SUP]; [SUP]20 [/SUP]and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts ofthe wise are futile.”[SUP][/SUP]
[SUP] [/SUP]
And this is what Jesus said:
Atthat time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you havehidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to littlechildren. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure
It’s a simpleGospel, based on simple faith, but how many want simples?
TheHoly Spirit is the only one who can lead into truth, and he will not contradictthe words of Christ. You may come up with wonderful exegesis to prove me wrong,it will mean nothing to me I am afraid. For many, I repeat, all of thislearning has ended up in a very sad place indeed, the theological mind ofman/the little grey cells has brought them to condemn people for standing onthe plain words of Christ when he walked this earth, and yet, they convincethemselves they are standing up for theGospel
Youhave gone to great lengths tonight to explain why ministers are not absolutelyobligated to plainly preach from the pulpit what to you, is the foundationalbelief of the faith, and the belief required as to who Christ is unto salvationand the consequences of getting it wrong.
No oneelse attempted to answer the question, they all fell silent, even the ones whowill readily tell you, you cannot be saved unless you believe Christ is God.Only a head theologist could remain silent IF they believe salvation hinges ona belief Christ is God. For the truly convicted sincere heart could not remain silent for to them theGospel a person needed to believe unto salvation would have to be very plainly preached,eternal life would hinge on it for many
GodBless
Hopespring
I'll tell you why I kept on, and kept asking that question that only one person ATTEMPTED to answer. I have an aversion to people making extra biblical demands for salvation. And by them not being able to respond to that question, it showed plainly the total insincerity of those who insist you must believe Christ is God Himself unto salvation. There was no heartfelt conviction from them, or they would have had to respond to the question. So it proved their conviction, in effect deserts them when they leave this website.
Such is the lot of the person who contradicts the plain requirements of Christ and make extra biblical demands for salvation. It is simply an exercise of the little grey cells, no more.
Such is the lot of the person who contradicts the plain requirements of Christ and make extra biblical demands for salvation. It is simply an exercise of the little grey cells, no more.
J
Luk 3:22 KJV - And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.
The Holy Ghost is Jehovah. This is the Son.
Jhn 16:7 KJV - Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
The Holy Spirit could not come to us until Christ ascended.
The Holy Ghost is Jehovah. This is the Son.
Jhn 16:7 KJV - Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
The Holy Spirit could not come to us until Christ ascended.