Connecting the Dots . . .

[Therapon]

We're not talking about those in the wilderness, we are talking about those who have been spiritually blinded to not recognize the gospel of Jesus Christ. Do you believe they are in transgression because they have been given the spirit of slumber? Doesn't scripture tell us, for where no law is, there is no transgression? Romans 4:15 1Christianwarrior316

You don’t get it, brother, some folks will do anything they can to distort the meaning of Scripture if it disagrees with their doctrine. I have quoted the following verse on this thread three or four times. It’s pretty plain, not hard to understand, but will some accept it at face value and believe it? No way, they rant and post other scriptures to try to refute it, are impolite, act like you just fell off the last turnip truck and find some way to tiptoe around Scripture so that it doesn’t mean what it says.

Romans 11:28-29 “As touching the gospel, they (the Jews) are (present tense) enemies for your (Gentiles) sake: but as touching the election (divine sovereign choice), they are beloved for the fathers' sake. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.”

According to some, election doesn’t mean what election has meant to the church for hundreds of years, and only those who were destined not to be saved were blinded even though the verse doesn’t say that. They won’t believe you brother, anymore than the Pharisees believed Jesus, even if your face glowed like Moses’ did.

 

[zone]

Connecting The Dots . . .

1. The 10 tribes of Israel were taken captive by Shalmaneser the Assyrian in 725-722 B. C. and dispersed into the Caucasus Mountains region.

Deuteronomy 4:27 “And the LORD shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the LORD shall lead you.”

Amos 9:8-9 “Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are upon the sinful kingdom (Israel), and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the LORD. For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations (so the ten tribes were dispersed among the Gentiles), like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth.” (But none of them will be lost)

2. Just analyzed documents from the former USSR indicates that in the following centuries, a large unidentified body of light-skinned blue-eyed people migrated from South of the Caucuses into Kingdom of Khazaria.

3. During the Islamic expansion of the 8th century, a Moslem army under Abdel Rahman tried to invade Europe through a pass in the Caucasus, but Khazarian armies defeated him. Were it not for the bulwark of Khazaria, Christian Europe could have fallen to Islam from the East.

4. Not wanting religious wars to divide his country, the King of the Khazars ordered three missionaries to appear before his court: a Christian monk, a Jewish priest and a Moslem Imam.

5. After carefully listening to the arguments of each, the King of the Khazars chose Judaism to be the state religion!

6. Later, the people in Khazaria clinging to Judaism emigrated to Europe, where they became known as Ashkenazi Jews.

Leviticus 26:33 “And I will . . . draw out a sword after you.”

7. Then came Hitler and the Holocaust, in which the Nazis in their death camps like Auschwitz-Birkenau, Buchenwald, Treblinka, and in over 1000 ghettos, tried but failed to exterminate the Ashkenazi Jews.

Deuteronomy 4:30-31 “When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.”

8. After the Holocaust, what was left of the Ashkenazi Jews fled Europe and immigrated to the holy land.

Jeremiah 29:14 “And I will be found of you, saith the LORD: and I will turn away your captivity, and I will gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you again into the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.”

9. In 1948 A.D., the new sovereign nation of Israel was established by what were primarily Ashkenazi Jews. Then in 1967, by those same ten “lost” tribes, Jerusalem was finally freed of Gentile control for the first time in 2573 years!

let's take another look at your thesis.





a good long look.

...........................

after seeing you skip right over THE FIRST ADVENT,
we can choose any of these passages you've used:

Deuteronomy 4:30-31 “When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice; (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.”

what is it that made you choose this verse to mean something other than The First Advent - The New Covenant?

is it the term latter days?

Hebrews 1
The Supremacy of God’s Son
1Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high...

is there some other provision?
what is it and where is it written?

what's Jesus talking about here?:

Mark 12
The Parable of the Tenants
1And he began to speak to them in parables. “A man planted a vineyard and put a fence around it and dug a pit for the winepress and built a tower, and leased it to tenants and went into another country. 2When the season came, he sent a servanta to the tenants to get from them some of the fruit of the vineyard. 3And they took him and beat him and sent him away empty-handed. 4Again he sent to them another servant, and they struck him on the head and treated him shamefully. 5And he sent another, and him they killed. And so with many others: some they beat, and some they killed. 6He had still one other, a beloved son. Finally he sent him to them, saying, ‘They will respect my son.’ 7But those tenants said to one another, ‘This is the heir. Come, let us kill him, and the inheritance will be ours.’ 8And they took him and killed him and threw him out of the vineyard. 9What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the tenants and give the vineyard to others. 10Have you not read this Scripture:

“‘The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone;
11 this was the Lord’s doing,
and it is marvelous in our eyes’?”

12And they were seeking to arrest him but feared the people, for they perceived that he had told the parable against them. So they left him and went away.

 

[Therapon]

They blinded themselves,

Really.. So this verse is a lie?
Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear) unto this day.

Theres nothing wrong with that verse you showed. But what does it mean?

Doesn't matter where Paul quoted it from, what matters is what the verse plainly says. Here in Romans, GOD says HE gave them a spirit of slumber. So true or false . . . did He or not?

Furthermore, did Go give them a spirit of slumber so they would be lost?

Romans 11:11 "I say then, Did they (the blinded Jews) stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy."

That verse says just the opposite, but do we believe it? No way. If you guys ever want to understand Revelation, you first have to simply believe what Scripture says, like a little child, even if it puts a crimp in your traditions.

 

[zone]

Therapon:

is this your thesis in your own words?

"If the Dome of the Rock is the Abomination that makes Desolate, and Daniel's 70th Week is about that dome, then the 70th week has to stretch into the past and future from 688AD when the dome was constructed."

 

[Abiding]

Doesn't matter where Paul quoted it from, what matters is what the verse plainly says. Here in Romans, GOD says HE gave them a spirit of slumber. So true or false . . . did He or not?

Furthermore, did Go give them a spirit of slumber so they would be lost?

Romans 11:11 "I say then, Did they (the blinded Jews) stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy."

That verse says just the opposite, but do we believe it? No way. If you guys ever want to understand Revelation, you first have to simply believe what Scripture says, like a little child, even if it puts a crimp in your traditions.

Of coarse it matters if Paul quotes from a prophecy...if thats too hard read down a few lines and it gives the same
answer, Your the one who wont read revelation:

[SUP]18 [/SUP]Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

Tradition!!! funny...what you teach is modern tradition.

Both Israel and the gentiles will be blinded if they refuse to believe.
So thats the end of this threads idear.

 

[HEIsRiSen]

 

[zone]

Therapon:

is this your thesis in your own words?

"If the Dome of the Rock is the Abomination that makes Desolate, and Daniel's 70th Week is about that dome, then the 70th week has to stretch into the past and future from 688AD when the dome was constructed."

ellis......????

ty

 

[Abiding]

whats a few hundred years between friends

 

[systemdown101]

Wait a sec ... Zone is back?

 

[Abiding]

Wait a sec ... Zone is back?

Yup isnt that cool?

 

[Therapon]

Yup isnt that cool?

Yeah <wry smile>

 

[Therapon]

Of coarse it matters if Paul quotes from a prophecy...if thats too hard read down a few lines and it gives the same answer.

Yoy gladly quote Paul's argument, but quit before quoting his conclusion . . . .

Romans 11:24-32 For if thou (Gentiles) wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree (The Jews) ; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, (couldn’t be anyone reading this, now could it?) that a hardening in part (only partially) hath befallen Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in; and so all Israel shall be saved: (the Jews of the Christian era and grafted in Gentiles) even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: And this is my covenant unto them, When I shall take away their sins.

As touching the gospel, they (the Jews of the Christian era) are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election (God’s sovereign choice), they are beloved for the fathers' sake. For the gifts and the calling of God are Irrevocable.

For as ye (Gentiles) in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their (Jewish) disobedience, even so have these also now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you (Gentiles) they (the Jews of the Christian era) also may now obtain mercy. For God hath shut up all unto disobedience (both Jew and Gentile), that he might have mercy upon all.

Why don't you guys just believe what it says rather than trying to find ways it isn't so?.

 

[Abiding]

Yoy gladly quote Paul's argument, but quit before quoting his conclusion . . . .

Romans 11:24-32 For if thou (Gentiles) wast cut out of that which is by nature a wild olive tree, and wast grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree (The Jews) ; how much more shall these, which are the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant of this mystery, lest ye be wise in your own conceits, (couldn’t be anyone reading this, now could it?) that a hardening in part (only partially) hath befallen Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in; and so all Israel shall be saved: (the Jews of the Christian era and grafted in Gentiles) even as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer; He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: And this is my covenant unto them, When I shall take away their sins.

As touching the gospel, they (the Jews of the Christian era) are enemies for your sake: but as touching the election (God’s sovereign choice), they are beloved for the fathers' sake. For the gifts and the calling of God are Irrevocable.

For as ye (Gentiles) in time past were disobedient to God, but now have obtained mercy by their (Jewish) disobedience, even so have these also now been disobedient, that by the mercy shown to you (Gentiles) they (the Jews of the Christian era) also may now obtain mercy. For God hath shut up all unto disobedience (both Jew and Gentile), that he might have mercy upon all.

Why don't you guys just believe what it says rather than trying to find ways it isn't so?.

Ok 3 questions so i can see how you view this.
1 why mention "there shall come out of zion the deliverer"? right here in "this" text.
2 what is the difference between a saved jew and the elect jew?
3 what does it mean "God shut up ALL" unto disobedience.

Therapon. Who isnt just believing what it says? Do you mean believing what you say it says?
You seem to want to say someones not seeing a verse or not believing it...which one?

One main difference i think we have is when!! or what "the fullness of the Gentiles" notice these words "be come in"
And that makes enough difference to mistake what its saying by thousands of years.

Also it makes jews unsavable right?

Nah i cant see a futuristic thing in this text at all.

 

[Therapon]

Do you mean believing what you say it says? Nah i cant see a futuristic thing in this text at all.

Futurist? I'm not a futurist, and besides Romans wasn't written just to Paul's generation, it is for all generations.

1. Fulness of the Gentiles = all the Gentiles whore are going to be saved have come to the Lord.
2. You believe people are saved by having the right doctrine. I believe Scripture teaches that souls are saved by having the right heart towards God, regardless of doctrine.
3. God has shut up all in dosobedience: all our righteousness (both Jew and Gentile) is as filthy rags before the Lord.
4. Ah, election has been argement in the church for years, but in Greek it is "ekloge" defined: divine selection, chosen, elected. Now I don't believe all Jews in the flesh are saved anymore than I believe every person who goes to church is saved. Romans 2:29 however, tells us which Jews are saved . . . " But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."
5. "Do you mean believing what you say it says?" Of course not. I mean just read those verses without doctrinal preconceptions. What do they say?
6. "You seem to want to say someones not seeing a verse or not believing it...which one?" All of the ones I quoted in my last post. If you forget tradition for a while, and read them like a newspaper, what do they state?

 

[zone]

Therapon:

is this your thesis in your own words?

"If the Dome of the Rock is the Abomination that makes Desolate, and Daniel's 70th Week is about that dome, then the 70th week has to stretch into the past and future from 688AD when the dome was constructed."

also, from one of your sites:

Question: I am a Messianic Jew. We believe the 70th week is a Seven-year Tribulation at the end of this age. You claim the 70th week is about the total time Gentile Nations controlled the Holy Land. You base your claim on the Hebrew word for seven in Daniel 9 being different than anywhere else in the Bible. I checked Strong’s dictionary and can’t find the word you are talking about; so it sounds like your whole idea is based on a mistake.

Answer: A Messianic Jew himself, Dr. David Lurie authored The Covenant, The Holocast, & The 70th Week published by Messianic Century, Coral Gables, FL, 1989. In his work, Dr. Lurie states on pp 83-84 that shavuim appears only five times in the Old Testament, all in Daniel. Below are pages 83-86 of Dr. Lurie's book. Though I have not been in touch with Dr. Lurie for some time, I knew the man well enough to recognize that he was not a careless scholar. It is inconceivable to me that he would make the monumental error you suggest, particularly when it was one of the central points in his book. I have taken the liberty of putting the concept you questioned in red. The rest of his thesis is also quite interesting.

Bible Prophecy - Ellis Skolfield < click


and, just to get this out here, for review, if it's alright with you:

“Know*therefore*and*understand,*that*from*the*going*forth*of
the*commandment*to*restore*and*to*build*Jerusalem*(Artaxerxes
decree, 444-*445 B.C.)*unto*the*Messiah*the*Prince*shall*be*seven
weeks*(~y[‘buv, shavuim, the male plural form of seven so these
“weeks” require a multiplier. These are not sevens of ordinary 24
hour days),*and*threescore*and*two*weeks*(~y[‘buv, shavuim):*the
street*shall*be*built*again,*and*the*wall,*even*in*troublous*times
(fulfilled in Neh 2:8).*And*after*threescore*and*two*weeks*(~y[‘buv,
shavuim)*shall*Messiah*be*cut*off*(i.e., killed),*but*not*for*himself:
and* the* people* of* the* (satanic)* prince* that* shall* come* shall
destroy*the*city*and*the*sanctuary;*and*the*end*thereof*shall*be
with*a*flood*(of foreign people, Rev 17:15),*and*unto*the*end*of*the
war*(between God and Satan)*desolations*are*determined.”

“And* he* (the above satanic prince, possibly Satan) shall
confirm*the*covenant*with*many*(Jewish people)*for*one
week ([;Wb]v\ shavua, a different word, the singular form of
seven, so this week is not the same as the prior 69):*and*in
the*midst*of*the*week*he*shall*cause*the*sacrifice*and*the
oblation* to* cease,* and* for* the* overspreading* of
abominations he* shall* make* it* desolate* (make what
desolate?),* even* until* the* consummation,* and* that
determined*shall*be*poured*upon*the*desolate.”*

http://www.ellisskolfield.com./pdf/19-70th week.pdf < click


and lastly, for now, you've said on your site that you do not read or write Hebrew.
ttyl


ps - are you certain you intend to say:

And* he* (the above satanic prince, possibly Satan) shall confirm*the*covenant*with*many*(Jewish people)*for*one week

 

[JaumeJ]

To know all of the prophecy given to Daniel, and to be able to interpret the meaning makes a person superior to the prophet, unless of course the one who knows is the first or one of the first of the generation intended to understand.
When I read Daniel, I thank Yahweh, God, and let Him know I am waiting and will wait for understanding knowing that should I not be in the generation specified in the prophecy, it will not be for me to ever know while here in this age.
Also, I believe I understand correctly when I believe it is saying when those end-time events begin to come about, all who love the Lamb of Yahweh will be given His Light to read and understand these words of Daniel. It will probably become self evident for all children of the Most High, for they are His children, and He has never nor will ever leave them (us) alone, amen?

Dan 12:9
And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
Dan 12:10
Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Dan 12:11
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Dan 12:12
Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
Dan 12:13
But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

We're not talking about those in the wilderness, we are talking about those who have been spiritually blinded to not recognize the gospel of Jesus Christ. Do you believe they are in transgression because they have been given the spirit of slumber? Doesn't scripture tell us, for where no law is, there is no transgression? Romans 4:15

1Christianwarrior316

Yet scripture says God wrote the law in our hearts. even before we come to Christ. thus no one will have an excuse.

It also says the HS was sent to convict THE WORLD of sin righteousness and judgment, so no one has an excuse.

To deny Christ is to deny what the HS came to convict us of.. Thus no one, jew or gentile will have an excuse and get a get out of jail free cars.. Sorry for you people who think Isreal will be free. Your in error.

God did not blind them, they blinded themselves, God just strengthened their hearts of their own false belief, by forcing them to continue to reject him. Which is how God hardens ones heart.

The word harden literally in the OT means to fortify or strengthen. It means we take a persons idea or belief and strengthen or fortify their resolve. God did this by continuing to show them truth. The more they rejected the truth, the more strengthened or fortified (hardened) their belief grew. We see this with Pharaoh, as God used progressively harsher things to strengthen pharaohs resolve and make it easier for him to deny God

in the NT it means to become stubborn (unyielding) or obstinate, which means to adhere to an opinion, purpose, or course in spite of reason, arguments, or persuasion thus meaning a resistance to change, which is exactly what Isreal did when Christ was here. They resisted him, in spite of all the proof he was the messiah, because their belief it was the law which made them right before God was stronger than the reasoning, arguments and proof Christ used to prove they were wrong and he was right. the more he did it, the more they became hardened.

He did the same thing to them he did to pharaoh, He started with small miracles, and worked up to th egreatest, Raising a man from the dead. But by this time, (as in Pharaoh) their hearts were so hard to the truth, even this proof could not change their minds, The difference is, Pharaoh lost his army, Israel crucified Christ and are still today hardened to the truth.

And you think God is going to save them? Think again!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You don’t get it, brother, some folks will do anything they can to distort the meaning of Scripture if it disagrees with their doctrine. I have quoted the following verse on this thread three or four times. It’s pretty plain, not hard to understand, but will some accept it at face value and believe it? No way, they rant and post other scriptures to try to refute it, are impolite, act like you just fell off the last turnip truck and find some way to tiptoe around Scripture so that it doesn’t mean what it says.

Romans 11:28-29 “As touching the gospel, they (the Jews) are (present tense) enemies for your (Gentiles) sake: but as touching the election (divine sovereign choice), they are beloved for the fathers' sake. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.”

According to some, election doesn’t mean what election has meant to the church for hundreds of years, and only those who were destined not to be saved were blinded even though the verse doesn’t say that. They won’t believe you brother, anymore than the Pharisees believed Jesus, even if your face glowed like Moses’ did.

Yet you are distoriring this verse yourself. The passage even says they are in undenial and have been cut off. And you claim they are saved anyway, Based on what?

The election just states they will never be destroyed as a nation, even in their unbelief. Because one day, they will all be saved, Not that they are all saved now..

Yet as you say, you will not believe, because your own belief is to important to you. Thus you have hardened your own heart to truth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Doesn't matter where Paul quoted it from, what matters is what the verse plainly says. Here in Romans, GOD says HE gave them a spirit of slumber. So true or false . . . did He or not?

Furthermore, did Go give them a spirit of slumber so they would be lost?

Romans 11:11 "I say then, Did they (the blinded Jews) stumble that they might fall? God forbid: but by their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, to provoke them to jealousy."

That verse says just the opposite, but do we believe it? No way. If you guys ever want to understand Revelation, you first have to simply believe what Scripture says, like a little child, even if it puts a crimp in your traditions.

Try to learn what the word harden means, then maybe you can properly interpret the passage, you have a twisted view of what it means which does not line up with what the term means..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Therapon:

is this your thesis in your own words?

"If the Dome of the Rock is the Abomination that makes Desolate, and Daniel's 70th Week is about that dome, then the 70th week has to stretch into the past and future from 688AD when the dome was constructed."

where do people come up with this crap? He actually believes this?