The Trinity

[Eccl12and13]

.........................

You asked who spoke to Moses in Exod.33.....let's read;

Exod.33

[1] And the LORD said unto Moses, Depart, and go up hence, thou and the people which thou hast brought up out of the land of Egypt, unto the land which I sware unto Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, saying, Unto thy seed will I give it:


Now I know it was an angel of the Lord that protected them...but it was the Lord, Jesus Christ that spoke and told Moses that an angel would be sent to help them. Which is the same angel spoken of in Isa.!


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[NWL]

Firstborn has to do with what? Adam on? Or a new creation?
How can He be the first born as far as Adam and also be the creator?

The Son both created all things and is also the firstborn of the new creation.

Jesus was simply the "firstborn of creation" as the scripture states, which means he was created before Adam, before the Earth, and even before the Angels, hence "firstborn of ALL creation" or as the other scripture puts it, Jesus was the "beginning of the creation by God" or another scripture that states it puts it this way regarding Jesus;

(Proverbs 8:22) “...Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago..."

The son is both the right hand man to God in creation-the person whom God created the world through-and also the First thing created by God. Jesus however isn't the soul creator, since Jehovah created things through Jesus.

(Hebrews 1:1, 2) God…has at the end of these days spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.

 

[mark54]

You asked who spoke to Moses in Exod.33.....let's read;

Exod.33

[1] And the LORD said unto Moses, Depart, and go up hence, thou and the people which thou hast brought up out of the land of Egypt, unto the land which I sware unto Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, saying, Unto thy seed will I give it:


Now I know it was an angel of the Lord that protected them...but it was the Lord, Jesus Christ that spoke and told Moses that an angel would be sent to help them. Which is the same angel spoken of in Isa.!


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But we know that Christ accompanied them in the desert(1Cor10:4) as well as the Holy Spirit

But the person who spoke to Moses in Ex 33 said he would not go with them, but his prescence would(Isaiah63:9)

 

[Eccl12and13]

But we know that Christ accompanied them in the desert(1Cor10:4) as well as the Holy Spirit

But the person who spoke to Moses in Ex 33 said he would not go with them, but his prescence would(Isaiah63:9)

Let's not read something that is not in scripture. Again...did Christ say that He would not go with them? Let's read again;

Exod.33

[1] And the LORD said unto Moses, Depart, and go up hence, thou and the people which thou hast brought up out of the land of Egypt, unto the land which I sware unto Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, saying, Unto thy seed will I give it:
[2] And I will send an angel before thee; and I will drive out the Canaanite, the Amorite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite:

Christ spoke to Moses and told him that He would send an angel with them. He did not say He would not go with them. Now let's read and confirm who it was that Christ sent to help....let's read who was His presence;

Isa.63
[9] In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.

And who was this angel? Let's continue...

[10] But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.

It was Christs' "holy Spirit". But does it mean that Christ was not also present? The scriptures does not state that at all....for as we know, as you stated in 1 Cor.10:4, Christ was ALSO there in the wilderness with them.

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[mark54]

Let's not read something that is not in scripture. Again...did Christ say that He would not go with them? Let's read again;

Exod.33

[1] And the LORD said unto Moses, Depart, and go up hence, thou and the people which thou hast brought up out of the land of Egypt, unto the land which I sware unto Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, saying, Unto thy seed will I give it:
[2] And I will send an angel before thee; and I will drive out the Canaanite, the Amorite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite:

Christ spoke to Moses and told him that He would send an angel with them. He did not say He would not go with them. Now let's read and confirm who it was that Christ sent to help....let's read who was His presence;

Isa.63
[9] In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.

And who was this angel? Let's continue...

[10] But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.

It was Christs' "holy Spirit". But does it mean that Christ was not also present? The scriptures does not state that at all....for as we know, as you stated in 1 Cor.10:4, Christ was ALSO there in the wilderness with them.

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will send an angel before you and drive out the Canaanites, Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Go up to the land flowing with milk and honey. But I will not go with you, because you are a stiff-necked people and I might destroy you on the way.”[SUP]4 [/SUP]When the people heard these distressing words, they began to mourn and no one put on any ornaments. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For the Lord had said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites, ‘You are a stiff-necked people. If I were to go with you even for a moment, I might destroy you. Now take off your ornaments and I will decide what to do with you.’”[SUP]6 [/SUP]So the Israelites stripped off their ornaments at Mount Horeb.
ex33:2-6

Moses said to the Lord, “You have been telling me, ‘Lead these people,’ but you have not let me know whom you will send with me. You have said, ‘I know you by name and you have found favor with me.’ [SUP]13 [/SUP]If you are pleased with me, teach me your ways so I may know you and continue to find favor with you. Remember that this nation is your people.”
[SUP]14 [/SUP]The Lord replied, “My Presence(isaiah63:9) will go with you, and I will give you rest.”

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Then Moses said to him, “If your Presence does not go with us, do not send us up from here. [SUP]16 [/SUP]How will anyone know that you are pleased with me and with your people unless you go with us? What else will distinguish me and your people from all the other people on the face of the earth?”

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the Lord said to Moses, “I will do the very thing you have asked, because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.”
eX33:12-17

We agree that the angel of God's prescence accomplanied them(the Holy Spirit) we know Christ accompanied them, but the person who spoke to Moses definately said he would not go wirth them, but his prescence would go with them(Isaiah63)

But6 we can't agree on everythintg concerning this subject I guess

 

[Eccl12and13]

will send an angel before you and drive out the Canaanites, Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Go up to the land flowing with milk and honey. But I will not go with you, because you are a stiff-necked people and I might destroy you on the way.”[SUP]4 [/SUP]When the people heard these distressing words, they began to mourn and no one put on any ornaments. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For the Lord had said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites, ‘You are a stiff-necked people. If I were to go with you even for a moment, I might destroy you. Now take off your ornaments and I will decide what to do with you.’”[SUP]6 [/SUP]So the Israelites stripped off their ornaments at Mount Horeb.
ex33:2-6

Moses said to the Lord, “You have been telling me, ‘Lead these people,’ but you have not let me know whom you will send with me. You have said, ‘I know you by name and you have found favor with me.’ [SUP]13 [/SUP]If you are pleased with me, teach me your ways so I may know you and continue to find favor with you. Remember that this nation is your people.”
[SUP]14 [/SUP]The Lord replied, “My Presence(isaiah63:9) will go with you, and I will give you rest.”

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Then Moses said to him, “If your Presence does not go with us, do not send us up from here. [SUP]16 [/SUP]How will anyone know that you are pleased with me and with your people unless you go with us? What else will distinguish me and your people from all the other people on the face of the earth?”

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the Lord said to Moses, “I will do the very thing you have asked, because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.”
eX33:12-17

We agree that the angel of God's prescence accomplanied them(the Holy Spirit) we know Christ accompanied them, but the person who spoke to Moses definately said he would not go wirth them, but his prescence would go with them(Isaiah63)

But6 we can't agree on everythintg concerning this subject I guess

I stand corrected. Christ said that He would not go with them lest He would destroy them because of their disobedience. His prescence was the holy angel; "...and the angel of his presence saved them..."

But still...what are you trying to say? It was Jesus that spoke to Moses. It was Jesus that said He would send His holy Spirit. It was Jesus that was with the nation of Israel in the wilderness.


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[mark54]

ECCL

If the Father spoke to Moses in ch33, the Son and Spirit accompanied the Israelites in the Dessert



Of course, if the Holy Spirit fully dwelt in the body of Christ, then He could be termed the angel of God's prescence and we would know how Spirit and Son both went with them in the Dessert.

And, this would then be how Father and Son are one, in the Holy Spirit(the spirit of God's prescence)

That they(the believers) may be one AS we are one
(John17:22)

bUT I am willing to be corrected concerning the angel of God's prescence if this can be proved to be impossible, just chatting away, not dogmatic here

 

[peacefulbeliever]

If i am disagreeing with you Peacefulbeliever I do so with trepidation, for I have a lot of respect for what you write.


In all their distress he too was distressed,
and the angel of his presence saved them.
In his love and mercy he redeemed them;
he lifted them up and carried them
all the days of old.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Yet they rebelled
and grieved his Holy Spirit.
So he turned and became their enemy
and he himself fought against them.
Then his people recalled[SUP][a][/SUP] the days of old,
the days of Moses and his people—
where is he who brought them through the sea,
with the shepherd of his flock?
Where is he who set
his Holy Spirit among them,
[SUP]12 [/SUP]who sent his glorious arm of power
to be at Moses’ right hand,
who divided the waters before them,
to gain for himself everlasting renown,
[SUP]13 [/SUP]who led them through the depths?
Isaiah 63:9-13

The Holy Spirit went with the Israelites in the desert
We know Christ did too (1Cor10:4)

You have capitalized the word "holy" to make it read "Holy Spirit". God is holy and God is Spirit - who sent the angel of his presence and the glorious arm of power - his Spirit - this is not speaking of the Comforter, THE Holy Spirit. v2 plainly states: the angel of his presence saved them even continues in Ex. 33:2

But:
I will send an angel before you and drive out the Canaanites, Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Go up to the land flowing with milk and honey. But I will not go with you, because you are a stiff-necked people and I might destroy you on the way.”[SUP]4 [/SUP]When the people heard these distressing words, they began to mourn and no one put on any ornaments. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For the Lord had said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites, ‘You are a stiff-necked people. If I were to go with you even for a moment, I might destroy you. Now take off your ornaments and I will decide what to do with you.’”[SUP]6 [/SUP]So the Israelites stripped off their ornaments at Mount Horeb.
ex33:2-6
Moses said to the Lord, “You have been telling me, ‘Lead these people,’ but you have not let me know whom you will send with me. You have said, ‘I know you by name and you have found favor with me.’ [SUP]13 [/SUP]If you are pleased with me, teach me your ways so I may know you and continue to find favor with you. Remember that this nation is your people.”
[SUP]14 [/SUP]The Lord replied, “My Presence(isaiah63:9) will go with you, and I will give you rest.”

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Then Moses said to him, “If your Presence does not go with us, do not send us up from here. [SUP]16 [/SUP]How will anyone know that you are pleased with me and with your people unless you go with us? What else will distinguish me and your people from all the other people on the face of the earth?”

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And the Lord said to Moses, “I will do the very thing you have asked, because I am pleased with you and I know you by name.”
eX33:12-17

Again, I will send my angel before thee; Isaiah 63:9 - angel of my presence
This is simply God sending "an agent or representative" that speaks and acts on full behalf of the one who sent him. The Israelites (being Jewish) understood the "principle of agency" full well. . .that the agent was regarded as the person himself.

The main point of the Jewish law of agency is expressed in the dictum "a person's agent is regarded as the person himself" Therefore any act committed by a duly appointed agent is regarded as having been committed by the principal, who therefore bears full responsibility for it with consequent complete absence of liability on the part of the agent. Encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion

Much like our modern day Power of Attorney. . . .

It seems God did not go with the Israelites in the dessert, but Christ and the Holy Spirit did

God did go with the Israelites via his Spirit and the presence of his angel.

"We know Christ did too (1Cor10:4)" Doesn't the above verses say that God will send his angel (Spirit, presence of his angel) before them? 1 Co. 10:4 says: . . .for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. A foreshadowing of the coming Messiah - Just as the manna given from heaven and the Passover Lamb, foreshadowed the coming Messiah representing the true bread from heaven [And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst] ; so also did the Rock from which they drank foreshadow the coming Messiah - [But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life].

 

[Eccl12and13]

ECCL

If the Father spoke to Moses in ch33, the Son and Spirit accompanied the Israelites in the Dessert



Of course, if the Holy Spirit fully dwelt in the body of Christ, then He could be termed the angel of God's prescence and we would know how Spirit and Son both went with them in the Dessert.

And, this would then be how Father and Son are one, in the Holy Spirit(the spirit of God's prescence)

That they(the believers) may be one AS we are one
(John17:22)

It was not the Father that spoke to Moses...it was Christ. For Christ tells us that no one has heard the Father or seen His shape at anytime.

The Holy Spirit is just that.....an 'holy' spirit or angel as opposed to an 'evil' spirit or angel.

The Holy Spirit is not a God as Christ and the Father are. There are (2) in the Godhead. Both have existed from eternity; God the Father and God the Son. The one that has become known as God the Son became flesh and blood man. He died, was given a spirit body once again, thus becoming the "firstborn" among many brothers.

Jesus was the first to, and so far the ONLY, to ever be "born again"!


.

 

[Bowman]

The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God. . .the power of the Highest [God]

He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:. . . How shall this be?. . .The Holy Spirit shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall over shadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

However, The Spirit is not The Father...

 

[Eccl12and13]

You have capitalized the word "holy" to make it read "Holy Spirit". God is holy and God is Spirit - who sent the angel of his presence and the glorious arm of power - his Spirit - this is not speaking of the Comforter, THE Holy Spirit. v2 plainly states: the angel of his presence saved them even continues in Ex. 33:2

We do not know WHICH 'holy spirit' it was that was sent to help the nation of Israel, but it was an angel of God, which is what The Holy Spirit/Ghost/Comforter is; an angel of God! The Holy Spirit/Ghost/Comforter is the same one that spoke to the prophets of the OT.

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[Eccl12and13]

However, The Spirit is not The Father...

Nor is the Holy Spirit/Ghost/Comforter a God!

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[Bowman]

The bible says God IS a spirit!

That The Spirit is God is already known.

However, The Spirit is not The Father.

See the difference...?

Now show me a verse that says The Spirit/Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost/The Comforter is a God!

There is only one God.

 

[mark54]

You have capitalized the word "holy" to make it read "Holy Spirit". God is holy and God is Spirit - who sent the angel of his presence and the glorious arm of power - his Spirit - this is not speaking of the Comforter, THE Holy Spirit. v2 plainly states: the angel of his presence saved them even continues in Ex. 33:2

Again, I will send my angel before thee; Isaiah 63:9 - angel of my presence
This is simply God sending "an agent or representative" that speaks and acts on full behalf of the one who sent him. The Israelites (being Jewish) understood the "principle of agency" full well. . .that the agent was regarded as the person himself.

Much like our modern day Power of Attorney. . . .

God did go with the Israelites via his Spirit and the presence of his angel.

"We know Christ did too (1Cor10:4)" Doesn't the above verses say that God will send his angel (Spirit, presence of his angel) before them? 1 Co. 10:4 says: . . .for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. A foreshadowing of the coming Messiah - Just as the manna given from heaven and the Passover Lamb, foreshadowed the coming Messiah representing the true bread from heaven [And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst] ; so also did the Rock from which they drank foreshadow the coming Messiah - [But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life].

Thanks for your full response, I shall read it over a few times(a bit slow I am afraid and tired tonight) and will then have somne thoughts on it. Thanks again for all you wrote

 

[Bowman]

Nor is the Holy Spirit/Ghost/Comforter a God!

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The Holy Spirit is The God.

 

[mark54]

It was not the Father that spoke to Moses...it was Christ. For Christ tells us that no one has heard the Father or seen His shape at anytime.

The Holy Spirit is just that.....an 'holy' spirit or angel as opposed to an 'evil' spirit or angel.

The Holy Spirit is not a God as Christ and the Father are. There are (2) in the Godhead. Both have existed from eternity; God the Father and God the Son. The one that has become known as God the Son became flesh and blood man. He died, was given a spirit body once again, thus becoming the "firstborn" among many brothers.

Jesus was the first to, and so far the ONLY, to ever be "born again"!


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Thanks for your response also. It's weird, but I find I have some things in common with you over this
NOW don't go off on one!
But if you believed John 17:3 as written, I would say, on this subject I would be closer to you than anyone, but you don't!

I agree, no one has seen the Father at anytime, absolutely, but Moses was not able to see God's face, only his back(you may feel that is a minior point, fair enough)

Well I cannot seem to agree with you or peaceful believer over this, and my brain hurts so I may take a less active part in this thisevening, I'll see
But if only you accepted John 17:3 as written, I'd have a pal, a likeminded fellow in this, that would be a novelty for me

 

[mark54]

It was not the Father that spoke to Moses...it was Christ. For Christ tells us that no one has heard the Father or seen His shape at anytime.

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Here, wait a minute, I must be tired

No man has SEEN GOD at any time(1jOHN 4:12) And no one has seen the Father
NOT no one has seen the Father at anytime full stop
Though it is the same thing!!!

 

[Eccl12and13]

The Holy Spirit is The God.

I know you do not understand....for this is what have been given to mankind since the church decided this back in 325ad. But there are only (2) God's in the Godhead, the one that Jesus Christ said no man has seen or heard, which is God the Father...and the God that was seen and heard by the elders and Moses in the wilderness, or Jesus Christ!

The Holy Spirit is just that....an 'holy; spirit or angel. At times this 'holy angel' speaks with all of the authority of God but he is not a God. He is the one that brings the same message as God.

There is only one place in ALL of God's word that tells us just how The Father, the Son, The Holy Spirit and even those that bring the same message are all one. It can be found in John 17.

Now since we are ONLY to receive our doctrine from the bible....however it states that The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are one is the only doctrine we can profess and believe in.

So however God's word tells us they are one...we are one in the same way. Let's read what thus says the word of God;

John 17
[21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
[22] And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

So tell me....how does God's word tell us The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are all one? Because however it says THEY are one, WE are one in the same way!


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[mark54]

Here, wait a minute, I must be tired

No man has SEEN GOD at any time(1jOHN 4:12) And no one has seen the Father(John6:46)
NOT no one has seen the Father at anytime full stop

Hence, the Father is the one true God John 17:3

 

[Eccl12and13]

Here, wait a minute, I must be tired

No man has SEEN GOD at any time(1jOHN 4:12) And no one has seen the Father
NOT no one has seen the Father at anytime full stop
Though it is the same thing!!!

St. John 1: 18 – No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared him.

St. John 5: 37 – And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

St. John 6: 46 – Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.


Now the words (NO MAN), (AT ANY TIME) and (NEITHER HEARD HIS VOICE….NOR SEEN HIS SHAPE.)are very absolute! We can take the inspired word of God to mean just what it says; no man, EVER, has seen God the Father, heard his voice nor seen his shape at any time………So that would mean NEVER!!


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