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Re: Wake up...
Considering that Jesus is speaking to God, his Father, rendering this verse as saying Jesus is the only true God then that would make this verse also say that he is the Father. . . .and we know that Trinity doctrine says the "Son is not the Father". Another clear issue is "whom thou hast sent".
Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is eternal life that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Looking for the blessed hope and appearance of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ.
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. [Matt. 16:27]
For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's and of the holy angels. [Luke 9:26]
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. [2 Cor. 4:6]
The glory of God which is Jesus Christ. . . the context of Titus . . . saying no to ungodliness while we wait for the appearing of Jesus Christ, who is the glory of God. . . .So nothing wrong here - Jesus Christ is our Saviour and he is the glory of God.
Considering that Jesus is speaking to God, his Father, rendering this verse as saying Jesus is the only true God then that would make this verse also say that he is the Father. . . .and we know that Trinity doctrine says the "Son is not the Father". Another clear issue is "whom thou hast sent".
Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is eternal life that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Looking for the blessed hope and appearance of the glory of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ.
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. [Matt. 16:27]
For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's and of the holy angels. [Luke 9:26]
For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. [2 Cor. 4:6]
The glory of God which is Jesus Christ. . . the context of Titus . . . saying no to ungodliness while we wait for the appearing of Jesus Christ, who is the glory of God. . . .So nothing wrong here - Jesus Christ is our Saviour and he is the glory of God.
I have not read this syllogism, but what I have read of Athanasius is not impressive. He doesn't think very far ahead of his words, and he does not know the scriptures very well. It is the wicked Jews that said only God can forgive sin. (Luke 5:21)
This syllogism is not reasoned out very well. When Jesus was preparing his 12 apostles to take over the church once he was gone, he gave Peter the Keys of the Kingdom of heaven, so that whatsoever he was to bind on earth, it would be bound in heaven and whatsoever he loosed on earth, it would be loosed in heaven. This has to do with the power of the apostles to forgive sins. If they forgave the sins of a man on earth, they would be forgiven in the books in heaven. (Mat. 16:19)
In Luke 5:20-23 Jesus forgave a man of his sins. The Jews said in their hearts, he blasphemes, who can forgive sins, but God only? Then Jesus said an interesting thing to them, whether is easier, to say, thy sins are forgiven thee or to say, rise up and walk? Then he said, so that you may know that the Son of Man has the power to forgive sins, he commanded the man to rise up and walk, and he was instantly healed. So which is easier to forgive sin or to heal?
In Acts 3:6 Peter was walking to the temple and stopped to behold a man asking for alms. Peter said to him money have I none, but in the name of Jesus, stand up and walk. The man stood and was instantly healed and rejoiced. Could Peter have forgiven this man his sins? Absolutely.
So Athanasius in his eagerness to prove the trinity with this syllogism, really showed his shallow knowledge of the scriptures and of priesthood power given to the apostles to save people on earth and to heal and to function in all ways in preaching the doctrines of salvation after the Savior was gone. They did a great job and billions have been saved by their good works.
We do not worship Peter and the apostles, even though they had the power to heal and forgive sins.
This syllogism is not reasoned out very well. When Jesus was preparing his 12 apostles to take over the church once he was gone, he gave Peter the Keys of the Kingdom of heaven, so that whatsoever he was to bind on earth, it would be bound in heaven and whatsoever he loosed on earth, it would be loosed in heaven. This has to do with the power of the apostles to forgive sins. If they forgave the sins of a man on earth, they would be forgiven in the books in heaven. (Mat. 16:19)
In Luke 5:20-23 Jesus forgave a man of his sins. The Jews said in their hearts, he blasphemes, who can forgive sins, but God only? Then Jesus said an interesting thing to them, whether is easier, to say, thy sins are forgiven thee or to say, rise up and walk? Then he said, so that you may know that the Son of Man has the power to forgive sins, he commanded the man to rise up and walk, and he was instantly healed. So which is easier to forgive sin or to heal?
In Acts 3:6 Peter was walking to the temple and stopped to behold a man asking for alms. Peter said to him money have I none, but in the name of Jesus, stand up and walk. The man stood and was instantly healed and rejoiced. Could Peter have forgiven this man his sins? Absolutely.
So Athanasius in his eagerness to prove the trinity with this syllogism, really showed his shallow knowledge of the scriptures and of priesthood power given to the apostles to save people on earth and to heal and to function in all ways in preaching the doctrines of salvation after the Savior was gone. They did a great job and billions have been saved by their good works.
We do not worship Peter and the apostles, even though they had the power to heal and forgive sins.
Re: Wake up...
Grammatically, there is no reason why 'the only true God' would not pertain to Jesus.
Jesus is the true God in other locations.
The established TSKS rule of Greek grammar mandates that both Savior and God have the same referent...and that referent is Jesus.
Jesus is God by the merits of Greek grammar, alone...
Grammatically, there is no reason why 'the only true God' would not pertain to Jesus.
Jesus is the true God in other locations.
The established TSKS rule of Greek grammar mandates that both Savior and God have the same referent...and that referent is Jesus.
Jesus is God by the merits of Greek grammar, alone...
Re: Wake up...
Granville Sharp was an English philanthropist who studied the grammar of the NT in order to demonstrate that his Trinitarian beliefs were correct so he came to scripture with the preconcieved idea of the Trinity doctrine and there are exceptions to this rule.
There are many more verses that declare that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
I wonder if Peter knew the Granville Sharp Rule?
. . . But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
It seems that God by revelation told Peter who Jesus was. . . If belief in the Trinity is the way of salvation, why didn't God the Father reveal that to the Peter? Wouldn't it seem that God would have revealed this truth to Peter and his answer would have been "Thou art God"?
Granville Sharp was an English philanthropist who studied the grammar of the NT in order to demonstrate that his Trinitarian beliefs were correct so he came to scripture with the preconcieved idea of the Trinity doctrine and there are exceptions to this rule.
There are many more verses that declare that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
I wonder if Peter knew the Granville Sharp Rule?
. . . But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
It seems that God by revelation told Peter who Jesus was. . . If belief in the Trinity is the way of salvation, why didn't God the Father reveal that to the Peter? Wouldn't it seem that God would have revealed this truth to Peter and his answer would have been "Thou art God"?
Re: Wake up...
You are googling outdated, outmoded and subjective information.
TSKS has no known exceptions either in secular Greek or NT Greek.
Jesus is God by the merits of established Greek, all by itself.
This is fact.
And?
Detail to us how this supposedly thwarts the Trinity.
Again...and?
No verse thwarts the Trinity.
Best to get used to that fact...
You are googling outdated, outmoded and subjective information.
TSKS has no known exceptions either in secular Greek or NT Greek.
Jesus is God by the merits of established Greek, all by itself.
This is fact.
And?
Detail to us how this supposedly thwarts the Trinity.
Again...and?
No verse thwarts the Trinity.
Best to get used to that fact...
Re: Wake up...
If it pleases you to depend on someone's take on Greek grammar for your doctrine, that's fine.
This is fact: God declares Jesus Christ to be His Son.
This is fact: God declares that his Son is his Christ: And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. [Rev. 11:15]
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down which accused them before our God day and night. [Rev. 12:10]
This is fact: Jesus Christ declares: For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. [John 16:27,28] Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. [John 8:42]
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God and your God. . . .
The purpose of the gospel of John: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
This is fact: I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Epraim; for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city. [Hosea 11:9]
God is not a man that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken and shall he not make it good?
God said Jesus Christ is his Son and if I change that to mean anything else then I am calling God a liar. . .So I prefer to believe what God says.
If it pleases you to depend on someone's take on Greek grammar for your doctrine, that's fine.
This is fact: God declares Jesus Christ to be His Son.
This is fact: God declares that his Son is his Christ: And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. [Rev. 11:15]
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down which accused them before our God day and night. [Rev. 12:10]
This is fact: Jesus Christ declares: For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. [John 16:27,28] Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. [John 8:42]
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God and your God. . . .
The purpose of the gospel of John: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
This is fact: I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Epraim; for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city. [Hosea 11:9]
God is not a man that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken and shall he not make it good?
God said Jesus Christ is his Son and if I change that to mean anything else then I am calling God a liar. . .So I prefer to believe what God says.
Actually idolatry is worshipping something or someone AS God or as a "god".
When I worship the Son, I am honoring the Son not as God but as God's Son; when I worship God the Father I am honoring the Father, who is God -
I am a unitarian. I have God as my Father just as Jesus has God as his Father. The first and great commandment is to Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, mind, and strength. . . That is what Jesus did and that is what I endeavor to do.
When I worship the Son, I am honoring the Son not as God but as God's Son; when I worship God the Father I am honoring the Father, who is God -
I am a unitarian. I have God as my Father just as Jesus has God as his Father. The first and great commandment is to Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, mind, and strength. . . That is what Jesus did and that is what I endeavor to do.
Well to be honest, if you are going to go to such lengths as you have with John 17:3 to reason it to mean something completely different from what it plainly states I would not be part of such a discussion. To me that descends the conversation into farce
If you want to scripturally discuss this with me pleae give me plain scripture(not scripture you have to theologise to mean what you want) that clearly states Christ is the one true God, then I will discuss this subject with you according to what you scripturally bring forth. For I can give you plain scripture that backs up what I believe so for a level playing field, I require the same of you
BTW
to give his people the knowledge of salvation
through the forgiveness of their sins,(Luke1:77)
I may have missed your post that corrctly answered your oft repeated question
'Saved from what?
With the above answer,
We are saved from our sin Bowman. As I say, I may have missed your post that stated that, I guess I must have done, for every minister of every church I have ever been to believes that is the answer.
It is so simple I have never before had such a question put to me, and I did slip the answer into a previous post to you, but you failed to spot it
If you want to scripturally discuss this with me pleae give me plain scripture(not scripture you have to theologise to mean what you want) that clearly states Christ is the one true God, then I will discuss this subject with you according to what you scripturally bring forth. For I can give you plain scripture that backs up what I believe so for a level playing field, I require the same of you
BTW
to give his people the knowledge of salvation
through the forgiveness of their sins,(Luke1:77)
I may have missed your post that corrctly answered your oft repeated question
'Saved from what?
With the above answer,
We are saved from our sin Bowman. As I say, I may have missed your post that stated that, I guess I must have done, for every minister of every church I have ever been to believes that is the answer.
It is so simple I have never before had such a question put to me, and I did slip the answer into a previous post to you, but you failed to spot it
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The true reason the ministers will not preach from the pulpit what a few fanatics(mainly on the internet) preach, is twofold
Firstly they understand the Spiritual reality, so are not hung up on the literal letter of their denominational doctrinal beliefs.
Secondly, if a minister actually stood in the pulpit and stated
if you believe Jesus is the son of God but not God Himself you cannot be saved with such a belief, are damned and will go to hell
They would in effect become a laughing stock and be there to be shot at by anyone who had the most basic understand of what scripture actually states. For they would be demanding man made theology, not what scripture demands belief wise unto salvation
Of course, they may believe as Bowman does, that the simple minded just wouldn't understand the theological doctrine their denomination stands on. Therefore only the 'wise and learned' can truly understand the core doctrine of the faith. That doesn't seem to fit with Christ's words though
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.
Luke10:21
Firstly they understand the Spiritual reality, so are not hung up on the literal letter of their denominational doctrinal beliefs.
Secondly, if a minister actually stood in the pulpit and stated
if you believe Jesus is the son of God but not God Himself you cannot be saved with such a belief, are damned and will go to hell
They would in effect become a laughing stock and be there to be shot at by anyone who had the most basic understand of what scripture actually states. For they would be demanding man made theology, not what scripture demands belief wise unto salvation
Of course, they may believe as Bowman does, that the simple minded just wouldn't understand the theological doctrine their denomination stands on. Therefore only the 'wise and learned' can truly understand the core doctrine of the faith. That doesn't seem to fit with Christ's words though
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.
Luke10:21
Perhaps it is the fact that a man of your knowledge is denying who Jesus is? This is the work of an apostate. The Pharisees understood perfectly well what Jesus was saying when he said “Truly, Truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am” but I doubt they are heavenward bound, unless they repented of their unbelief.
"I and the Father are one." (John 10:30.)
“the Father is in me and I am in the Father." (John 10:38.)
"Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me," [ONE PERSON] (John 14:11)
"I and the Father are one." (John 10:30.)
“the Father is in me and I am in the Father." (John 10:38.)
"Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me," [ONE PERSON] (John 14:11)
Even small children are told "they shall call his name Immanuel; which is, being interpreted, God with us."
Those who accept are saved. Others perhaps in later life commit apostasy and deny Jesus is God.
That is NOT the Gospel message, it should NOT be preached from the pulpit and heresy has NO place in the Christian church.
Thank you.
Those who accept are saved. Others perhaps in later life commit apostasy and deny Jesus is God.
That is NOT the Gospel message, it should NOT be preached from the pulpit and heresy has NO place in the Christian church.
Thank you.