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I was just fooling around Chr. My own observation is 'waste not want not.' I've seen the Lord use TBN and all kinds of nutty Christian evangelists and "ministries" to bring people into salvation and relationship with Him through the Gospel message. Some of the new Christians stay in these "ministries" but many mature to the point where they are like, "hmmm..." and move on to more orthodox assemblies.
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Yes I have read them many many times. It's important to understand the circumstances surrounding their creation for so many Christians do not.
There was no Western Judeo-Christian civilization in existence and no point of view even remotely resembling what we enjoy today in the first century outside of the apostolic church when those books were written.
The historical period that passages like Hebrews 6:4-6, the Epistle of Jude, etc... were written in and initially for was a very dark pagan period of history at the very beginning of the Early Christian expansionary period. Gentile pagans would accept Jesus Christ as savior and then change their mind and go right back to the pagan temple prostitutes and demonic activities.
But even worse, they began syncreting (e.g. mixing) Christian theology with paganism and the Gnostic thought that existed in the first century and forming heretical communities in which they engaged in all manner of debauchery. Worse yet they begin infiltrating Christian assemblies and attempting to take control of them and mislead people away from orthodox Christian teaching into their immoral debauchery. These are the people that created Christian Gnosticism that warred for souls against orthodox Christianity during the second and third centuries before the Council of Nicaea convened and for about 150 years it was not certain which side would win (not known by secular historians of the era anyways).
Trying to extrapolate that to Joel Olsteen is a pretty sorry exercise for Joel is not one those the Biblical authors were referring to.
Joel Olsteen's public published statement of faith is completely orthodox:
What We Believe
The Bible: We believe the entire Bible is inspired by God, without error and the authority on which we base our faith, conduct and doctrine.
The Trinity: We believe in one God who exists in three distinct persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God who came to this earth as Savior of the world.
Salvation: We believe Jesus died on the cross and shed His blood for our sins. We believe that salvation is found by placing our faith in what Jesus did for us on the cross. We believe Jesus rose from the dead and is coming again.
Water Baptism: We believe water baptism is a symbol of the cleansing power of the blood of Christ and a testimony to our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Communion: We believe in the regular taking of Communion as an act of remembering what the Lord Jesus did for us on the cross.
Growing Relationship: We believe every believer should be in a growing relationship with Jesus by obeying God's Word, yielding to the Holy Spirit and by being conformed to the image of Christ.
He would have fit right into the early Christian church not against it.
Historical sidenote: By the early 4th century, Gnostics were kicked out the church and officially forbidden to meet, by the mid 4th century their books were widely banned and by the late 4th century Gnosticism carried a death penalty in the Roman empire.
Warning: Also, don't confuse Christians struggling through the sanctification process (saved but not perfect), struggling with addiction, who fell into an immoral relationship and is needing church discipline to come out of it, missing the mark on some theological points after salvation they need to correct (which happens to everyone as they grow in the knowledge of Christ), or similar life issues with the ones the authors of Hebrew, Jude, etc... were targeting for to do so is unscriptural.
There was no Western Judeo-Christian civilization in existence and no point of view even remotely resembling what we enjoy today in the first century outside of the apostolic church when those books were written.
The historical period that passages like Hebrews 6:4-6, the Epistle of Jude, etc... were written in and initially for was a very dark pagan period of history at the very beginning of the Early Christian expansionary period. Gentile pagans would accept Jesus Christ as savior and then change their mind and go right back to the pagan temple prostitutes and demonic activities.
But even worse, they began syncreting (e.g. mixing) Christian theology with paganism and the Gnostic thought that existed in the first century and forming heretical communities in which they engaged in all manner of debauchery. Worse yet they begin infiltrating Christian assemblies and attempting to take control of them and mislead people away from orthodox Christian teaching into their immoral debauchery. These are the people that created Christian Gnosticism that warred for souls against orthodox Christianity during the second and third centuries before the Council of Nicaea convened and for about 150 years it was not certain which side would win (not known by secular historians of the era anyways).
Trying to extrapolate that to Joel Olsteen is a pretty sorry exercise for Joel is not one those the Biblical authors were referring to.
Joel Olsteen's public published statement of faith is completely orthodox:
What We Believe
The Bible: We believe the entire Bible is inspired by God, without error and the authority on which we base our faith, conduct and doctrine.
The Trinity: We believe in one God who exists in three distinct persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. We believe Jesus Christ is the Son of God who came to this earth as Savior of the world.
Salvation: We believe Jesus died on the cross and shed His blood for our sins. We believe that salvation is found by placing our faith in what Jesus did for us on the cross. We believe Jesus rose from the dead and is coming again.
Water Baptism: We believe water baptism is a symbol of the cleansing power of the blood of Christ and a testimony to our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Communion: We believe in the regular taking of Communion as an act of remembering what the Lord Jesus did for us on the cross.
Growing Relationship: We believe every believer should be in a growing relationship with Jesus by obeying God's Word, yielding to the Holy Spirit and by being conformed to the image of Christ.
He would have fit right into the early Christian church not against it.
Historical sidenote: By the early 4th century, Gnostics were kicked out the church and officially forbidden to meet, by the mid 4th century their books were widely banned and by the late 4th century Gnosticism carried a death penalty in the Roman empire.
Warning: Also, don't confuse Christians struggling through the sanctification process (saved but not perfect), struggling with addiction, who fell into an immoral relationship and is needing church discipline to come out of it, missing the mark on some theological points after salvation they need to correct (which happens to everyone as they grow in the knowledge of Christ), or similar life issues with the ones the authors of Hebrew, Jude, etc... were targeting for to do so is unscriptural.
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Well He is because I've met entire families that accepted Jesus Christ by watching TBN and started reading the Bible and are now members of genuine orthodox scripture teaching Christian assemblies. Yes, they joked a bit with me about learning of the Gospel by watching TBN but they also made it clear that they were not Christians and it was TBN where they first heard and responded to the Gospel.
So while I agree with you that TBN is nuttier than a fruitcake and I too wonder what it will look like on judgement day for many of the people extracting money from naive people while preaching all sorts of nonsense, there is also a great many people responding to the Gospel when they hear it.
Paul alluded to this strange situation in Philippians 1:15-18:
"It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice."
So while I agree with you that TBN is nuttier than a fruitcake and I too wonder what it will look like on judgement day for many of the people extracting money from naive people while preaching all sorts of nonsense, there is also a great many people responding to the Gospel when they hear it.
Paul alluded to this strange situation in Philippians 1:15-18:
"It is true that some preach Christ out of envy and rivalry, but others out of goodwill. The latter do so in love, knowing that I am put here for the defense of the gospel. The former preach Christ out of selfish ambition, not sincerely, supposing that they can stir up trouble for me while I am in chains. But what does it matter? The important thing is that in every way, whether from false motives or true, Christ is preached. And because of this I rejoice."
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I read the link in the first post of this thread. It's nonsense. Having the faith to declare God's Biblical promises is scriptural: it's not "new age magic." Many genuine Christian evangelists throughout Christendom have had amicable personalities and focused on relationship building. It is within this context that they present the Gospel. They don't all come as Old Testament prophets screaming for people to repent or burn in hell nor are they all required to.
At the end of every service at Lakewood Church, Joel Osteen shares the Gospel message and gives people an opportunity to respond to the Gospel message of Jesus Christ:
Does Joel Osteen believe you should be saved? - YouTube
At the end of every service at Lakewood Church, Joel Osteen shares the Gospel message and gives people an opportunity to respond to the Gospel message of Jesus Christ:
Does Joel Osteen believe you should be saved? - YouTube
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Read the bible ageofknowledge compare what I said to Joel Osteen.I know what im talking about. Check out the vid on youtube by John Macarthur about Joel Osteen.I am commited to defending the faith and exposing false teachers and there damanable heresy .The bible commands that we do that.You need discernment
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My discernment is fine, I know the Bible at least as well as you (probably better since I'm a straight A M.Div.) AND I'm a trained and certified apologist with Norman Geisler's International Society of Christian Apologetics whose been in many battles with cult lay people and false teachers.
John MacArthur has some issues of his own if you want to get into that but in the video you referenced John is simply constructing a straw man and then lighting it on fire. The entire presentation is constructed on logical fallacy.
Joel Osteen is not a Stoic, Epicurean, Gnostic, Hindu, or pagan. He's a Christian. Specifically, he's the Baptist son of a Southern Baptist preacher and he earned a Master's degree from Northern Baptist Theological Seminary which is a theologically conservative seminary within its association with the American Baptist Churches in the USA (historically the Northern Baptist convention).
The straw man that John MacArthur constructs is not Joel Osteen. It is John MacArthur's false and wrong idea of Joel Osteen that he's constructed in his own mind. Nothing more. That's why it fails and that's why John MacArthur is wrong in his condemnation of Joel Osteen.
You and John MacArthur are getting in the way of a worker of God bringing in the harvest. Christianity has had to deal with this since the Pharisees opposed Jesus and Christian teachers opposed Paul in Philippians.
John MacArthur has some issues of his own if you want to get into that but in the video you referenced John is simply constructing a straw man and then lighting it on fire. The entire presentation is constructed on logical fallacy.
Joel Osteen is not a Stoic, Epicurean, Gnostic, Hindu, or pagan. He's a Christian. Specifically, he's the Baptist son of a Southern Baptist preacher and he earned a Master's degree from Northern Baptist Theological Seminary which is a theologically conservative seminary within its association with the American Baptist Churches in the USA (historically the Northern Baptist convention).
The straw man that John MacArthur constructs is not Joel Osteen. It is John MacArthur's false and wrong idea of Joel Osteen that he's constructed in his own mind. Nothing more. That's why it fails and that's why John MacArthur is wrong in his condemnation of Joel Osteen.
You and John MacArthur are getting in the way of a worker of God bringing in the harvest. Christianity has had to deal with this since the Pharisees opposed Jesus and Christian teachers opposed Paul in Philippians.
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Ricky, there is a very wide gulf between he's an evil pagan heretic false teacher and there are some changes/reforms that he should make. The first you oppose but the second you pray for and engage for change. The second is the right approach with Joel Osteen: not the first.
Now I can't recall but are you one of the Oneness Pentecostals I've striven with. If so, Oneness heresy would be an example of the first as it violates an essential of Christianity while engaging in all sorts of false teaching to support the heresy.
Now I can't recall but are you one of the Oneness Pentecostals I've striven with. If so, Oneness heresy would be an example of the first as it violates an essential of Christianity while engaging in all sorts of false teaching to support the heresy.
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Joel Osteen can be compared to Paul and Jesus?
Have you ever sat and listened to him? Has she ever told anyone in that vast audience (38,000+) that there is ONLY one way to God? I don't think so. In fact, Larry King asked him point blank, "Do you believe that Jesus is the ONLY way to God?" Joel replied, "That's up to God, I can't judge someone's heart." As far as I am concerned Joel Osteen is a coward! He calls himself a pastor. Yet he feels it is not his place to tell people about salvation, sin, redemption. Maybe he needs to re-read I and II Timothy again and see what a leader in the church is supposed to be!
Oprah seem to think very highly of him. That is not saying very much for him either.
Have you ever sat and listened to him? Has she ever told anyone in that vast audience (38,000+) that there is ONLY one way to God? I don't think so. In fact, Larry King asked him point blank, "Do you believe that Jesus is the ONLY way to God?" Joel replied, "That's up to God, I can't judge someone's heart." As far as I am concerned Joel Osteen is a coward! He calls himself a pastor. Yet he feels it is not his place to tell people about salvation, sin, redemption. Maybe he needs to re-read I and II Timothy again and see what a leader in the church is supposed to be!
Oprah seem to think very highly of him. That is not saying very much for him either.