The Trinity

[Bowman]

Re: Wake up...

I am not ignoring it . . . I simply do not believe how it's employed.

Then you can't be against something which you don't understand...that would be called ignorance...

Jesus Christ said God was his Father . . . I am to believe a man over Jesus?

And?

This does nothing to deny Jesus' deity.

God said Jesus was his only begotten Son . . . so I would say that since God did not tell us he was sending his own self as his Son . . . but that he was sending his Son . . . . then yes that thwarts the Trinity.

Roflol...!

You can't even bring yourself to even declare what you think the Trinity even is...how then can it 'thwart' the Trinity?

Straw-man...

How can Jesus Christ be God but yet be God's Christ?

Its called the Trinity.

I don't ignore any scripture I just don't want to quote the whole Bible. . . . .

What you do is quote scripture which you think somehow supports your position, and then you ignore the rest...ALL from Trinitarian rendered scriptures!

Don't you know how silly you look?!

It is what Jesus Christ said of himself . . . He was sent from God, he has a God and that God is his Father.

And?

But you told me before that I did understand it. . . . .

You don't.

I am to follow the doctrine of Jesus and his apostles . . . . they both declared that there is one God who has an only begotten Son and that Son is Jesus Christ. Belief in Jesus Christ as the only begotten Son of God gives eternal life.

Who is YOUR Savior?

 

[zone]

Re: Run from it...

Still waiting for you address the plain English of the version in question.

When can we expect this...?

 

[mark54]

You cannot answer anything can you.

We know from John 17:3 that eternal life is knowing the Father, the only true God and Jesus Christ who he sent.
We also know from John that no one has seen God at anytime

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true(the Father), and we are in him that is true(the Father), even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God(the Father again), and eternal life(through his Son)

Who does John tell us who we must believe Christ to be to have life(eternal life)

But these are written that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life(eternal life) in his name
John 20:31

Thats consistent with what is continuously required belief unto eternal life

Now lets see if you can answer this or not



Why did neither Christ, Paul, Peter, James or John plainly and clearly state that a person must believe Christ is God Himself unto salvation?

Did the Apostles not have the spiritual insight you and others do today?
Or did they fail woefully in their Christian duty by not informing people very plainly as to the belief required as to who Christ is to inherit eternal life?

 

[peacefulbeliever]

nonsense.
you shall worship the LORD Thy God ONLY.
ONE God.

If I may ask, what part of what I posted was nonsense?

I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, . . . .

Thou shalt worship the LORD thy God and him only shalt thou serve.

worship - proskyneo: 1) to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence; 2) among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence3) in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication; a) used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank; 1) to the Jewish high priests, 2) to God; 3) to Christ; 4) to heavenly beings; 5) to demons

I may be mistaken but in the Trinity doctrine is not the Son worshiped as God, i.e. God the Son?

 

[zone]

If I may ask, what part of what I posted was nonsense?

Originally Posted by peacefulbeliever

Actually idolatry is worshipping something or someone AS God or as a "god".

When I worship the Son, I am honoring the Son not as God but as God's Son; when I worship God the Father I am honoring the Father, who is God -

I am a unitarian. I have God as my Father just as Jesus has God as his Father. The first and great commandment is to Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, mind, and strength. . . That is what Jesus did and that is what I endeavor to do.

but....i take back the word nonsense.
worship as many gods as you want to

worshipping the Son is worshipping someone other than God.
so....ya....that's okay though

 

[PS]

Re: Run from it...

Separate and yet the same.

That is the Trinity.

Trinity-deniers simply do not get it.

The Trinity is an epithet for ALL scripture...

"Separate and yet the same" could apply to Mars Bars but I am sure you don't mean that and neither does it apply to the Comforter and Jesus who are not the same.

Perhaps you mean "Separate and One"?

Do you not think a tripartite being with body, soul and spirit being one person is a better explanation?

Thank you in advance for your help.

 

[Bowman]

So, God begot himself? How did God beget God? I thought God was eternal, not begotten?

Jesus is the God-man.

What part could be begotten?

God is Spirit, God is the Father, therefore . . . . God the Father is Spirit.

Wrong.

You are imparting your faulty logic.

Show me a verse which ever states that The Father is The Spirit.

Good luck...

By your logic then I can ask you: How many do you worship?

One.

You, however, have at least TWO.

Did Trinitarians have a part in transcribing from the original Greek, yes. Does that mean that only Trinitarians can believe the scripture or that the Trinity doctrine is actually taught in scripture? . . . I was under the impression that the Bible is written to and for anyone.

Uni's using Trinitarian rendered scriptures for their position would be like Trinitarians using uni-scripture for their position!

Never happen!

And yet....uni's are not quite bright enough to catch this simple fact.

The Shema is Unitarian . .

Nope.

It is Trinitarian.

The Lord our God is one Lord.

What does the original Hebrew say?

That's right....you don't know...nor can you bring yourself to look...

The Jews did not believe in the Trinity . . .

Some did...those where the remnant that God chose to carry on...

That doctrine was not even taught at the time of the OT. Remember most Trinitarians agree that the Trinity doctrine did not come in till later.. . . .

Moses was Trinitarian.

Jesus was a Jew. . .

In what way?

Theologically?

Nope.

 

[mark54]

And yet....uni's are not quite bright enough to catch this simple fact.






e.

Oh the pride of man. What did you call me yesterday Bowman? Simple minded wasn't it.

The Holy Spirit leads into truth, not the human intellect, sorry to disappoint you

 

[Bowman]

Re: Run from it...

"Separate and yet the same" could apply to Mars Bars but I am sure you don't mean that and neither does it apply to the Comforter and Jesus who are not the same.

Perhaps you mean "Separate and One"?

Do you not think a tripartite being with body, soul and spirit being one person is a better explanation?

Thank you in advance for your help.

The concept of the Biblical Trinity can be visualized by the Trinity Shield.

There are twelve possible deity combinations as thus:

• The Father is God
• God is the Father
• The Son is God
• God is the Son
• The Spirit is God
• God is the Spirit
• The Father is not the Son
• The Son is not the Father
• The Son is not the Spirit
• The Spirit is not the Son
• The Spirit is not the Father
• The Father is not the Spirit

 

[johnluke]

you're intentionally muddying the point.

do you worship Jesus?
if so He must be God.
if He's not God, that's idolatry.

don't play games.
if you're an arian just say so.

The person who is playing games is Athanasius. Before you rely so heavily on this man, rely instead on Jesus.

Who did Jesus worship?

Who did Jesus pray to?

Jesus continually prayed to his Father who was in heaven, who had sent him to proclaim the gospel and save the human race from their sins.

In John 4:22-25 Jesus is telling the woman at the well that the hour cometh and now is when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for the Father seeketh such to worhip Him.

I pray and worship the same God that Jesus worships, the same God that he is sitting on the right hand of today. I do not worship the God that Athanasius created.

 

[Bowman]

Oh the pride of man. What did you call me yesterday Bowman? Simple minded wasn't it.

The Holy Spirit leads into truth, not the human intellect, sorry to disappoint you

I believe that was your self-comment.

Who am I to disagree...?

 

[Bowman]

In John 4:22-25 Jesus is telling the woman at the well that the hour cometh and now is when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for the Father seeketh such to worhip Him.

This is Trinity worship, brother!

Father
Son (truth)
Spirit

Wake up...!

 

[mark54]

The person who is playing games is Athanasius. Before you rely so heavily on this man, rely instead on Jesus.

.

This is a problem shown emphatically on the internet so often. People come and quote huge swathes of scholars and theologians beliefs, for that is what they do, look to these people to learn spiritual truth. And yet, the Holy Spirit, the greatest theologian of them all lives in each and every Christian but many in truth do not rely on him for truth but the mind of man.
And they read up on those they consider 'experts' to learn, it is just a theological exercise of the little grey cells, devoid of being led of the Holy Spirit because that is what they revel in doing
They are not looking to these people in earnestness to come closer to God, for they read up on them concerning the pre trib raptuire, fillique, and a whole host of things that cannot possible better enable them to take up their cross and follow after Christ, they just revel in theologicasl exercise.
Andv they condemn you according to the extrapolations/opinions of those they follow. Their bottom line is not the bible but the scholars and theologians they follow
Do they firstly look to these people because they believe they are mightily led of the Holy Spirit? No, but because they believe they have much expertise and great academic minds, oh the folly of looking to man rather than relying on the one who leads into truth
And what is the result of this grand exercise?
They end up condemning people for standing on the plain words of Christ when he walked this earth
For simple truth of scripture is now beyong them, their god is the intellect, and the humasn reasoning of those condsidered wise and learned

The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise are futile
1Cor3:21

 

[PS]

Re: Run from it...

The concept of the Biblical Trinity can be visualized by the Trinity Shield.

There are twelve possible deity combinations as thus:

• The Father is God
• God is the Father
• The Son is God
• God is the Son
• The Spirit is God
• God is the Spirit
• The Father is not the Son
• The Son is not the Father
• The Son is not the Spirit
• The Spirit is not the Son
• The Spirit is not the Father
• The Father is not the Spirit

That is correct. So if we look at the positives we find that God is "Father, Son and Spirit."

If only people could grasp that the Son is God, that would be so helpful.

 

[mark54]

I believe that was your self-comment.

Who am I to disagree...?

No it was your comment, would you like me to repost it, and the scriptures I added to it?

 

[zone]

The person who is playing games is Athanasius. Before you rely so heavily on this man, rely instead on Jesus.

Who did Jesus worship?

Who did Jesus pray to?

Jesus continually prayed to his Father who was in heaven, who had sent him to proclaim the gospel and save the human race from their sins.

In John 4:22-25 Jesus is telling the woman at the well that the hour cometh and now is when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for the Father seeketh such to worhip Him.

I pray and worship the same God that Jesus worships, the same God that he is sitting on the right hand of today. I do not worship the God that Athanasius created.

okay.
arianism might be cool.
i personally don't hold to it but i'm no longer going to say much about why.
to each their own!
take care

 

[Pilgrimer]

Re: Wake up...

Jesus Christ said God was his Father . . .

Your father was human. You are not your father, but you are human.

Jesus' father was God. Jesus is not his Father, but Jesus is God.

If you can understand the first, why can't you understand the second?

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Pilgrimer]

Re: Wake up...



Word!

 

[mark54]

Re: Wake up...

Your father was human. You are not your father, but you are human.

Jesus' father was God. Jesus is not his Father, but Jesus is God.

If you can understand the first, why can't you understand the second?

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

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Because my Father was not my God

 

[johnluke]

okay.
arianism might be cool.
i personally don't hold to it but i'm no longer going to say much about why.
to each their own!
take care

By the way, I am not a arian. It was right to excommunicate Arius for his doctrine. Arius reasoned that God the Father is the only unbegotten. He also reasoned that this only unbegotten God created Jesus out of nothing. Therefore, Jesus did not exit before God the Father created him.

This we know is untrue. I do not hold to that reasoning and therefore am not in Arius' camp and I would have voted to excommunicate him too.

I also believe that Athanasius' camp went to such a degree to shut down Arius that they perpetrated unbiblical concepts on Christianity and because they were considered the fathers of the church in that time and in high standing and had the backing of Constantine, the concepts took flight and ended in a creed that is still as controversial today as it was when presented. The Christian world even today, as seen by this thread, are split into many segments when it comes to explaining the Godhead, and the relationships and natures of the 3 persons in that Godhead.

I give you and everyone the right to worship Almighty God and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit as you wish and call you sisters and brothers. I look forward one day for complete unity in the churches. Can you imagine what that would be like for millions and millions of people thinking and moving in the same direction. Can you imagine all the good, all the power and glory that could be given to God from that kind of utopian state. I long for that day. May the Lord always be with you. I may not always agree with you, but I enjoy your enthusiasm in the Lord.