What is the Messianic Kingdom?

[Elin]

What does scripture say about the davidic covenant? and davids throne?

2 Sam 7: 10 I will also appoint a place for My people Israel and will plant them, that they may live in their own place and not be disturbed again, nor will the wicked afflict them any more as formerly,
11 even from the day that I commanded judges to be over My people Israel; and I will give you rest from all your enemies.

That was fulfilled in Josh 21:43-45:

"So the Lord gave Israel all the land he had sworn to their forefathers, and they took possession (not full habitation) of it and settled there. The LORD gave them rest on every side, just as he had sworn to their forefathers. Not one of their enemies withstood them; the LORD handed all their enemies over to them. Not one of the LORD'S good promises to the house of Israel failed; every one was fulfilled."

The land promise has been fulfilled. There is no land promise remaining to Israel.

The Lord also declares to you that the Lord will make a house for you. 12 When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your [c]descendant after you, who will come forth from [d]you, and I will establish his kingdom.

According to Da 2:44, that was fulfilled, both literally and typically, during the Roman empire at Christ's first coming, where the kingdom established will endure forever.

Da 2:44 does not allow for another future temporal Messianic kingdom.

Ez 37:24 “My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances and keep My statutes and observe them. 25 They will live on the land that I gave to Jacob My servant, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons’ sons, forever; and David My servant will be their prince forever. 26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will [h]place them and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in their midst forever. 27 My dwelling place also will be with them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people. 28 And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.”’”

All is fulfilled in the everlasting Messianic gospel kingdom set up during the Roman empire at Christ's first coming.

Because the kingdom set up at Christ's first coming is eternal, there is no future temporal Messianic kingdom to come.

1 Samuel, David is promised Isreal will be given their land back. Will live in peace. Will no longer fear their enemy.
2. In ez 37 (the prophetic fulfilment shown) They will no longer live in rebellion against God (Isreal) They will live in the land God gave Jacob (not heaven, but the land of canaan) You know. the SAME LAND THEIR FATHERS LIVE IN?? He will place them and multiply them. And the nations (gentiles) will know Jesus is the Lord over all.

That was fulfilled under Nehemiah, when they returned to the land after their Babylonian captivity, the walls of Jerusalem were rebuilt, the Temple was rebuilt, and Temple worship was restored.

There remains no promise to return to the land.

The above prophecies have been fulfilled. None remain to be fulfilled in a future temporal Messianic kingdom.

 

[zone]

People do not want to believe it, because they do not want to believe God will forgive Isreal when they repent, or that they will even repent. which is something I can not fathom people would believe!

i for one believe God forgives anyone who is repentant and acknowledges Jesus as King and Lord and Messiah, and obeys the Gospel.

and hopefully understands that also means becoming part of His Body, His Church.

jew or gentile. jews repent and become christians today. my best friend is proof.

no other NAME.

no other PROMISE.

 

[Elin]

Does that mean that the unconditional promise to the "seed" concerning the "land" was in Christ(faith)?
And the land promise was conditional by faith? Romans 9:4-8
Also the land promise was an everlasting possession which always made me wonder until I saw
Hebrews 11:10

Okay, we've got two things going here.

1) The land was a covenant.

The promises of Ge 3:15, 12:3 were not covenants, they were only promises.

It is those promises which were shut up in Christ.

But those who believed those promises were in Christ because of their faith in the Promise, which was Christ.

2) The land covenant (Ge 15:9-21) was a unilateral unconditional covenant, and not a bilateral conditional covenant.

The land promise was conditioned on nothing, including faith.

So possession of the land was not by faith.

 

[Elin]

Never heard of this. so where do you get this from?

The temple and sacrificial system has been done away with,. then again. It never saved anyone to begin with.. so How could jesus be on the throne in a sacrificial mosaic system?

You'll have to ask the ones who believe it.

I don't believe it, so you're asking the wrong person.

 

[Bookends]

i missed everything!
now i gotta start over!

Hey, this thread is so good and I missed it all. Don't feel bad...Glad I stayed out, for Elin, Abiding, Pilgrimer, and you Zone did a great job in articulating the truth...A lot better then I could ever do, however EG has a hard shell. Now I know none of my threads took off, lol. That's ok, it's not about me..

EG, I commend you for sticking in thus far and taking the bunches. I love you bro. Peace

 

[Pilgrimer]

I think we have to look deeper than this in scripture or we wouldn't have scripture like
zech 8:23 The LORD of Hosts says this: "In those days, 10 men from nations of every language will grab the robe of a Jewish man tightly, urging: Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you."

It is true that the Jews got so caught up in how to carry out, physically, God's instructions that they lost sight of the spirit of God. They also got so carried away with God getting them out of the predicament they were in with the Romans that they were blind to the scripture about a savior. But I think that we have to use what we see they did wrong to look for the mud in our own eye. Most of our leaders are so caught up in the spirit of God that they scream legalism and works aren't effective if any mention of doing is suggested. It is Jews in reverse.

The Jews got in this predicament because they took on pagan ways, telling everyone they were doing them for God, they changed the God the practices were for. We are doing this often. So lets not throw stones, we live in a glass house.

I would suggest the Jew whose skirts all these gentiles have grabbed who has led them up to the Heavenly Jerusalem to tabernacle with God is that bandy-legged old Jew Paul, Apostle to the Gentiles.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Elin]

I think you miss the point here/ Again your trying to make a symbol of something scripture does not say was a symbol.

God said, I GIVE YOU AND YOUR DESCENDANTS AFTER YOU THIS LAND as an ETERNAL INHERITANCE.

It was not heavenly land, he even spelled it out where and what it was..
If God breaks this promise. What is to keep God from breaking his promise to us?

Well, then. . .

"Houston, we've got a problem."

Because God promised the land to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, personally (Ge 17:8, 26:3, 35:12), but none of them ever possessed a foot of ground there (Ac 7:5), so God did not keep his promise to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

It does not mean God must give them the land back if they do not repent, Lev 26 shows what they must do to get it back.. And you want to sit here and tell me if All Isreal gets saved, by repenting and recieveing Christ. God will not remember his covenant with Abraham Isaac and Jacob and return them to THERE land??

It was never the patriarchs land. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob never got a foot of ground there to return to (Ac 7:5).

The promise to return Israel to the land was fulfilled under Nehemiah when they returned from Babylon, and Jerusalem, the walls and the Temple were rebuilt, and Temple worship was restored.

There is no promise remaining to Israel to return to the land.

 

[Abiding]

Ive needed to study this more for quite awhile
chapter 17 seems the land is brought into a conditional
covenant with circumcision. Dont bother answering
i just need to do more homework.

 

[Elin]

God gave two covenants to Abraham:
1) a unilateral unconditional covenant of the possession of Canaan (Ge 15:17-18), and
2) a bilateral conditional covenant to be their God (Ge 17:3-14).
Conditions: "As for me" (v.4), and "As for you (v.9).

But we learn in Ge 15:6 that it was faith in God's promises (Ge 12:3, 15:4-5) that was credited to him as righteousness.
The promise to bless all nations through Abraham (Ge 12:3) was a promise of Christ,
and belief in that promise was a belief in Christ, the Promise.

So salvation in Israel was by belief in the Promise.
It was not granted by covenant.

You missed my whole point.

IF all of the covenant of abraham, As ZONE DEMANDS, speaks of salvation and is salvic in nature. Then ALL Isreal is saved, no matter if they recieve Christ or not.

IF however, it was just a land covenant, and promises of blessings HERE ON EARTH to them,

then it is not salvic in nature, and zones defense and arguments fall on their face.

Isn't that what I said?

 

[Pilgrimer]

Are you saying that kingdom is within (entos) us (Lk 17:21)?

Marvelous and past finding out, is it not? That God's Kingdom dwells in us, and yet at the same time we are citizens that dwell in His Kingdom. Just like the strangely wondrous work of baptism, it is in being buried with Christ that we are made alive in Him. It is more than I can really understand ...

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Bookends]

what i have never been able to fathom is in this supposed future kingdom on earth (which would be temporary again anyway, ending in precisely 1,000 years)....is what is the soteriology in THAT time?

never been able to get satisfactory answers.

everything from glorified saints (one version has it jews reigning with gentile christians under them; a second view is just fuzzy on who is who) reigning over flesh people (who procreate), with a Glorified Jesus in Temporal Jerusalem.

sacrifices (animals??!) etc have to be included since that's the only conclusion.

just no idea what the soteriology would be there.

Law i guess.

then after 1,000 years sinful men rise up and battle Jesus in Person.

nah...

What's even worse I think, is my Dad, or any Saint who has passed already, will come back from whatever heaven is like now, pure bliss I would imagin. Then they will have to live is a semi-golden age that still has some sin and death in it, culminating in big battle at the end???? Go figure.

 

[Elin]

I disagree. Because the future mellenial kingdom according to Scripture has Isreal being repentant. Returned to her land, and king david sitting on his throne in Jerusalem ruling the world.. and the whole world coming and worshiping him.

Da 2:44 says the everlasting Messianic kingdom which endures forever was set up during the Roman empire at the first coming of Christ.

Because it endures forever, there will be no future temporal Messianic kingdom.

No, it is a whole world following God, Isreal in her land,

The land promise was fulfilled under Joshua (21:43-45).

Israel has no promise of a land.

 

[zone]

What's even worse I think, is my Dad, or any Saint who has passed already, will come back from whatever heaven is like now, pure bliss I would imagin. Then they will have to live is a semi-golden age that still has some sin and death in it, culminating in big battle at the end???? Go figure.

ya...ta face this:

 

[Bookends]

Where in the gospels did Jesus tell the Jewish nation they were to give the gospel to the Gentiles?

I think the OT makes this claim, but it kinda worked in reverse, they were to be a light to the world and attract convertss and the new converts brought into Jewish culture and Laws...I can try to find the passages if you like (may take a few days).

 

[Pilgrimer]

what i have never been able to fathom is in this supposed future kingdom on earth (which would be temporary again anyway, ending in precisely 1,000 years)....is what is the soteriology in THAT time?

never been able to get satisfactory answers.

everything from glorified saints (one version has it jews reigning with gentile christians under them; a second view is just fuzzy on who is who) reigning over flesh people (who procreate), with a Glorified Jesus in Temporal Jerusalem.

sacrifices (animals??!) etc have to be included since that's the only conclusion.

just no idea what the soteriology would be there.

Law i guess.

then after 1,000 years sinful men rise up and battle Jesus in Person.

nah...

Really! I can only conclude that people who believe a mortal man can rise up and rebel in the presence of Christ in all his glory simply have no idea just how glorious Jesus Christ really is. Jeesh, the one man on earth who knew Jesus best, who had laid his head on Jesus' breast, ate with him, slept alongside him, heard him teach and preach and saw his miracles first hand, saw him resurrected, but he got one look at the Glorified Christ and he collapses in a dead faint at his feet. And that's Jesus' friend!

I think when Jesus returns to this old sin-weary world, in all his glory, the very brightness of his presence will be a burning, consuming fire before which the elements will melt and the cosmos will be dissolved.

Puny mortal bits of clay rise up in the presence of the Glorified One??? Why, even the powers of hell tremble just at his name.

So I agree zone ... ain't gonna happen!

Which brings to mind this little ditty ...

[video=youtube;sChJUaU5W9I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sChJUaU5W9I&list=HL1361913886&feature=mh_l olz[/video]

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Elin]

I think the OT makes this claim, but it kinda worked in reverse, they were to be a light to the world and attract convertss and the new converts brought into Jewish culture and Laws...I can try to find the passages if you like (may take a few days).

I would appreciate that.

Thanks!

 

[zone]

Really! I can only conclude that people who believe a mortal man can rise up and rebel in the presence of Christ in all his glory simply have no idea just how glorious Jesus Christ really is. Jeesh, the one man on earth who knew Jesus best, who had laid his head on Jesus' breast, ate with him, slept alongside him, heard him teach and preach and saw his miracles first hand, saw him resurrected, but he got one look at the Glorified Christ and he collapses in a dead faint at his feet. And that's Jesus' friend!

I think when Jesus returns to this old sin-weary world, in all his glory, the very brightness of his presence will be a burning, consuming fire before which the elements will melt and the cosmos will be dissolved.

Puny mortal bits of clay rise up in the presence of the Glorified One??? Why, even the powers of hell tremble just at his name.

So I agree zone ... ain't gonna happen!

Which brings to mind this little ditty ...

[video=youtube;sChJUaU5W9I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sChJUaU5W9I&list=HL1361913886&feature=mh_l olz[/video]

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

I LOVE THIS VID !

edit....going away now...

one more replay.

 

[Abiding]

Isa 49:6And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.

Luke 2:32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles and for glory to your people Israel.

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should proclaim light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

 

[Pilgrimer]

Galatians 3:16
Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.

LXX clears up much of this trickery we see today....seed singular.

Oh my, titanic shift! As many times as I've read that verse I never saw that ...




In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Pilgrimer]

Yep. . .because the Roman kingdom was also a type of Satan's kingdom.

The literal prophecy of the fall of Rome was fulfilled.

It's symbolic fulfillment is in Christ's kingdom overthrowing Satan's kingdom.

No problem exists with the time frame in this prophecy.

That's a nice revision and minimization of the NT record of Israel's unbelief.

Your chronology is a little confused.

Where in the gospels did Jesus tell the Jewish nation they were to give the gospel to the Gentiles?

The Mosaic laws of defilement separated the Jews from the Gentiles.

Those defilement laws were not set aside (Heb 7:18-19) until Jesus' Jewish enemies had him killed by the Romans.

God's judgment on Israel's unbelief was not because it kept them from giving the gospel to the Gentiles.

God judgment on unbelieving Israel was about rejecting his Messiah,

which is the reason why they are still under God's judgment of blindness today.

But I don't think the blindness of Israel was a judgment. It was done so that God's purposes according to election might stand. In other words, they were blinded by the glory of the Law so that they would be forced to exercise faith for salvation. The only thing that can open their eyes to what the Law and prophets were testifying to is the Gospel. If they believe the Gospel then their blindness is taken away.

The judgment on unbelieving Israel (the Old Covenant older brothers) was to be cast out, disinherited, like Ishmael/Esau of old, while the younger brother (the New Covenant Jews) became the heirs, like Isaac/Jacob.

It was also foreshadowed in the wilderness journeying. Those Jews who had no faith did not enter the promised land but perished in the wilderness.

So the judgment isn't blindness, the judgment is being cast out and disinherited because they refuse the light of the Gospel which is able to remove the veil from their hearts so they can see.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer