Reformed Theology - Penal Substitution and the Imputed Righteousness of Christ

Ariel82 · Feb 24, 2013

I apologize if I misunderstand what you are teaching. it is one of the reason dialogue is important. however I believe you have misunderstood the teachings of many you have criticized, but lets me reread and respond to your post as best as God has given me the ability to do.....

Skinski7 said:

what of those people who never intentionally CHOOSE to suppress the light or rebel against God? what of those people like Paul who thought he was following God only to later realize that he was not?

the answer to that question Skinski is NO for all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. i'm sure you know the Bible verse I'm referring. its kind of late, but i'll look it up for you later if you need it.

you see Skinski there is a difference between Sinless and Blameless. people in the OT were found blameless because their animal sacrifices cleansed them of their sin but they never justified them. it comes down to the difference between the Old covenant and the New covenant. do you know the difference?

I think you misunderstand the concept of Original sin. it says the flesh will lead you to sin but with the Holy Spirit you will be able to overcome that sin. before the Holy Spirit/New Covenant indwelling people were given the law as a tutor to teach them what was right and what was wrong.

i agree that if people do not take responsibility for their actions and admit that they sinned then they can never be repentant of that sin. i believe that is the true sin of Adam and Eve. not only did they break God's commandments, they denied that they were at fault and refused to repent and ask God for forgiveness. It is like the verse that says be angry but do not let the sun set on your anger.

you can be angry but you need to pray and forgive the other person before the sun sets because God forgave you your offenses.

sorry I don't have time to research Augustine or Pelagian or Jesse Morrell or listen to the video. its past my bedtime, but if God grants me time this week I will look at it.

I do not think total depravity necessitates total inability. it is more that unless God does something people WILL NOT choose God. they will choose themselves. they will choose the world. they will follow the serpent. they will not seek God unless God does something in their life to make them aware of their need, their sinfulness and unclean state. you can read the OT and see stories of how people acted without God. how people tried to live without God's soveriegnity.

see these statements make no logical sense. perhaps we are having a communication breakdown, but it seems as if you are saying... if you forsake rebellion and yield to God you are indwelt with the Holy Spirit. however then you say men don't need the Holy Spirit to do good. however if they do good would that not be obeying God and then wouldn't they have to have the Holy Spirit living in them?

how can the Holy Spirit be with us but not necessarily in us?

how do you think people are able to choose good without the Holy Spirit within them?

he does have a choice but since he does not have the Holy Spirit he is blinded to the spiritual consequences of his choice.

i think this story would take a while to actually discuss because it ties into the curse of Adam in Genesis 3 and how God made Adam and Eve a tunic of Skin and how Abel was a prophet that foreshadowed the coming of Christ through the sacrifice of the firstborn Lamb. for now I'll just read the rest of your response.

you have issues with original sin... check.. got that message. don't know why... since its obvious that Adam's original sin caused quite a bit of problems with the world like death, working for your food, etc... but I'll keep reading for now...

you know the Light is referring to JESUS right? somehow it seems like you use light to refer to wisdom to discern good from evil... but I"ve always thought those verses referred to the Light Jesus brought into a lost world....

good you just gave the definition of total depravity... a world without the Light of God or His laws teaching them right from wrong.

i could be offended but I think I'll forgive you and quote verses back instead:

John 10:27My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.

no offense but you are not my Shepherd and your voice is too often bitter and mixed with lies for me to trust. I examine your words and teachings to ensure you do not lead my brothers and sisters off a cliff.

how do you know that I do not already have the Truth of Scripture and you are the one with the veil over your eyes due to strongholds in your mind?

carefully and patiently it is then....

Ariel82 · Feb 24, 2013

Skinski7 said:

no we are SERVANTS to the one we obey.

we have and always will belong to God. Just as the whole world belongs to GOD not Satan.

Satan is a thief and a liar. He steals and kills and destroys.

however, there is a difference between Servants and Friends:

John 15:15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.

that is one of the things I noticed you did not pick up from your favorite parable about the prodigal son... The son was not just turning from sin. he was hungry and thought to become a servant to his father would be better than being a servant to the unkind pig master.

you see in the parable God is the Father, Satan is the pig master and the prodigal son is an archetype for any person who is given the many blessings of God and wastes it in sinful activities. He sells himself into slavery but gets nothing in return. He would even be willing to eat what is given to pigs but is not given even that. so he turns to his father and admits to having sinned against heaven and before his father. he says the following [SUP]Luke 15 v. 21 [/SUP]And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.’

however the Father does not make him a servant but calls him son. yet the parable goes on to talk about the Older son who gets all that Father owns but is angry because his brother used up his father's livelihood with harlots. However the Father tells him that he should rejoice for his brother's return because he was died and is now made alive.

I don't think the take away message is that you must first leave the pig pen, but that you must first recognize that you are a sinner and not worthy to be anything more than a servant. You must first be humble as well as contrite, because you see the son sinned long before he even left his father's presence out of pride. it is shown in this verse " [SUP]12 [/SUP]And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the portion of goods that falls to me.’ So he divided to them his livelihood."

I always thought it rude for the younger son to demand that the Father give him anything, as if it was owed to him because it was not the son's livelihood but the Father's that was given.

After you are truly humble and contrite and know that you don't deserve anything, you can understand how the Law is a tutor for those who are repentant until they brought to Christ and given the Holy Spirit who teaches them to understand God's plan. then they are no longer servants but friends of God and mature and perfect in Christ.

SarahM777 · Feb 25, 2013

Mo comments in Red

Sarah....Skinski,

Do you do this? Yes we pray fervently.

1 John 5

[SUP]16[/SUP]If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death.I am not saying that you should pray about that.[SUP]17 [/SUP]All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death. Sin that leads to death is willful transgression against one's knowledge of what is right. My understanding of why John says we don't have to pray for a sin unto death is because it is an act of the will and God will not infringe on an act of the will (in the context of forcing someone to obey).

Where does it say the sin is only against you? Again John says there A SIN that leads to death. And Jesus says there is only one sin that can not and will not ever be forgiven in this life or the next.

Did David know full well what he was doing here?

2 Samuel

11 In the spring, at the time when kings go off to war, David sent Joab out with the king’s men and the whole Israelite army.They destroyed the Ammonites and besieged Rabbah. But David remained in Jerusalem.
[SUP]2 [/SUP]One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof of the palace. From the roof he saw a woman bathing. The woman was very beautiful, [SUP]3 [/SUP]and David sent someone to find out about her. The man said, “She is Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam and the wife of Uriah the Hittite.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]Then David sent messengers to get her. She came to him, and he slept with her. (Now she was purifying herself from her monthly uncleanness.) Then she went back home. [SUP]5 [/SUP]The woman conceived and sent word to David, saying, “I am pregnant.”
[SUP]6 [/SUP]So David sent this word to Joab: “Send me Uriah the Hittite.” And Joab sent him to David. [SUP]7 [/SUP]When Uriah came to him, David asked him how Joab was, how the soldiers were and how the war was going. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Then David said to Uriah, “Go down to your house and wash your feet.” So Uriah left the palace, and a gift from the king was sent after him. [SUP]9 [/SUP]But Uriah slept at the entrance to the palace with all his master’s servants and did not go down to his house.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]David was told, “Uriah did not go home.” So he asked Uriah, “Haven’t you just come from a military campaign? Why didn’t you go home?”
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Uriah said to David, “The ark and Israel and Judah are staying in tents,[SUP][a][/SUP] and my commander Joab and my lord’s men are camped in the open country. How could I go to my house to eat and drink and make love to my wife? As surely as you live, I will not do such a thing!”
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Then David said to him, “Stay here one more day, and tomorrow I will send you back.” So Uriah remained in Jerusalem that day and the next. [SUP]13[/SUP]At David’s invitation, he ate and drank with him, and David made him drunk. But in the evening Uriah went out to sleep on his mat among his master’s servants; he did not go home.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]In the morning David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it with Uriah. [SUP]15 [/SUP]In it he wrote, “Put Uriah out in front where the fighting is fiercest. Then withdraw from him so he will be struck down and die.”
[SUP]16 [/SUP]So while Joab had the city under siege, he put Uriah at a place where he knew the strongest defenders were. [SUP]17 [/SUP]When the men of the city came out and fought against Joab, some of the men in David’s army fell; moreover, Uriah the Hittite died.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Joab sent David a full account of the battle. [SUP]19 [/SUP]He instructed the messenger: “When you have finished giving the king this account of the battle, [SUP]20 [/SUP]the king’s anger may flare up, and he may ask you, ‘Why did you get so close to the city to fight? Didn’t you know they would shoot arrows from the wall? [SUP]21 [/SUP]Who killed Abimelek son of Jerub-Besheth[SUP][b][/SUP]? Didn’t a woman drop an upper millstone on him from the wall, so that he died in Thebez? Why did you get so close to the wall?’ If he asks you this, then say to him, ‘Moreover, your servant Uriah the Hittite is dead.’”
[SUP]22 [/SUP]The messenger set out, and when he arrived he told David everything Joab had sent him to say. [SUP]23 [/SUP]The messenger said to David, “The men overpowered us and came out against us in the open, but we drove them back to the entrance of the city gate.[SUP]24 [/SUP]Then the archers shot arrows at your servants from the wall, and some of the king’s men died. Moreover, your servant Uriah the Hittite is dead.”
[SUP]25 [/SUP]David told the messenger, “Say this to Joab: ‘Don’t let this upset you; the sword devours one as well as another. Press the attack against the city and destroy it.’ Say this to encourage Joab.”
[SUP]26 [/SUP]When Uriah’s wife heard that her husband was dead, she mourned for him. [SUP]27 [/SUP]After the time of mourning was over, David had her brought to his house, and she became his wife and bore him a son. But the thing David had done displeased the Lord.

Was David just making an error in judgement or did he know what he was doing? Did he try to cover the whole thing up? Did he make Uriah drunk so Uriah would go home to sleep with Bathsheba so he wouldn't find out about her adultery with David? Then was it an error in judgement when David sent Uriah to the front lines so that Uriah would be killed in battle or was it thought out? Just curious.

In Jesus own words

Matthew 12

[SUP]30 [/SUP]“Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.[SUP]31 [/SUP]And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.[SUP]32 [/SUP]Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

A few verses before that it says this...

Mat 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

They attributed the work of Christ to the devil. Thus they blasphemed the Holy Spirit. Don't do that Jesus warns.

Do you pray for the brothers and sisters who commit a sin? If not then how can you say you love the Lord? If a brother offend me I most certainly pray for them.

Again where does it say the sin is just an offense against you or are we to pray from their restoration when we see a brother or sister stumble?

1 John 4

[SUP]19 [/SUP]We love because he first loved us.[SUP]20 [/SUP]Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. [SUP]21 [/SUP]And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.

What are you trying to do? Trying to find some sin with which to write off everything I say? Is that not what the Pharisees did? I make posts with very specific points and MANY TIMES people completely IGNORE the specific points and instead attempt to discredit what I write by trying to find fault in my character.

I confess I am not perfect and I confess I can make mistakes. If you see me in error please elaborate why it is error and use Scripture to substantiate any claim.

Call sin the same way Jesus calls sin. Jesus says that if you even look at a woman with lust you have committed adultery.
Jesus defines it as a sin not just an itty bitty little mistake. Jesus took the law so much further that He gets to the motives of the heart,not just the outward cleaning up of the acts.

David understood it when he said "Create in me a clean heart O God and renew a right spirit within me,and cast me not away from your presence and take not your Holy Spirit from me" David knew he couldn't do it on His own.

Jeremiah said this (he got it)

[SUP]5 [/SUP]This is what the Lord says:
“Cursed is the one who trusts in man,
who draws strength from mere flesh
and whose heart turns away from the Lord.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]That person will be like a bush in the wastelands;
they will not see prosperity when it comes.
They will dwell in the parched places of the desert,
in a salt land where no one lives.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]“But blessed is the one who trusts in the Lord,
whose confidence is in him.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]They will be like a tree planted by the water
that sends out its roots by the stream.
It does not fear when heat comes;
its leaves are always green.
It has no worries in a year of drought
and never fails to bear fruit.”

[SUP]9 [/SUP]The heart is deceitful above all things
and beyond cure.
Who can understand it?

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“I the Lord search the heart
and examine the mind,
to reward each person according to their conduct,
according to what their deeds deserve.”

[SUP]11 [/SUP]Like a partridge that hatches eggs it did not lay
are those who gain riches by unjust means.
When their lives are half gone, their riches will desert them,
and in the end they will prove to be fools.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]A glorious throne, exalted from the beginning,
is the place of our sanctuary.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Lord, you are the hope of Israel;
all who forsake you will be put to shame.
Those who turn away from you will be written in the dust
because they have forsaken the Lord,
the spring of living water.

[SUP]14 [/SUP]Heal me, Lord, and I will be healed;
save me and I will be saved,
for you are the one I praise.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]They keep saying to me,
“Where is the word of the Lord?
Let it now be fulfilled!”
[SUP]16 [/SUP]I have not run away from being your shepherd;
you know I have not desired the day of despair.
What passes my lips is open before you.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Do not be a terror to me;
you are my refuge in the day of disaster.

Skinski7 · Feb 25, 2013

When David was in his sin he was under condemnation there can be no doubt. God granted him repentance and David sought that repentance with all his heart. He was reconciled to God through a period of broken godly sorrow that worked a repentance unto salvation.

Yes adultery in the heart is sin and it has to stop. This is why a sinner must be BROKEN whereby they FORSAKE their rebellion to God in order to FULLY YIELD to God. God will then raise the sinner up to NEWNESS OF LIFE and CLEANSE THEM.

We are made pure by faith (Act 15:9) which simply means we are made pure in yielding to God. Hence Obedience to the truth by the Spirit purifies the heart (1Pet 1:21). A Christian does not lust in the heart because the heart has been purified.

The modern Gospel message IGNORES heart purity. They may speak of purity but in reality they ignore it. They teach a CLOAK OF RIGHTEOUSNESS while the heart REMAINS DEFILED. They teach that a heart is purified OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME which they call Sanctification. Sanctification is being set apart (having been made pure) and thus growing more and more in the grace and knowledge of Christ.

The churches teach that one can still be in sin and saved hence all the programs and books they have to help people "struggling" with sin. Instead of preaching repentance and faith whereby the sin stops they preach a forensic salvation which cloaks ongoing sin.

When I say churches I mean MOST of them. There are a FEW exceptions but not very many.

It is a fallacy to keep alluding to "do it on your own" for we do NOTHING on our own. The grace of God has appeared to all men teaching us the way we should go. We YIELD TO THAT and the result will be PURITY. This "do it on your own" objection is a fallacy which is rooted in the doctrine of INABILITY which is rooted in Augustinian Original Sin.

Human being are not disabled or unable to yield to God.

SarahM777 · Feb 25, 2013

Skinski7 said:

I am not saying he didn't what I was asking was this

Was David just making an error in judgement or did he know what he was doing? Did he try to cover the whole thing up? Did he make Uriah drunk so Uriah would go home to sleep with Bathsheba so he wouldn't find out about her adultery with David? Then was it an error in judgement when David sent Uriah to the front lines so that Uriah would be killed in battle or was it thought out,willful,deliberate sin? Just curious.

Skinski7 · Feb 25, 2013

SarahM777 said:

David knew very well what he was doing. Sure he may have suppressed the truth in unrighteousness and thus was in a darkened state of ignorance, but this state was his own doing.

When people engage in sin they push the truth from their mind in order to engage the sin.

It was purely by the grace of God that Nathan gave David a wake-up call.

Adultery and murder are willful deliberate sins.

1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Those sins disqualify people from the kingdom and that is why they have to be FORSAKEN before forgiveness is granted. God does not forgive people IN their sins.

I made that thread asking if a porn addict has to forsake the act of viewing porn BEFORE God will forgive them in order to make a strong point. Every single person that responded implying "no" that "one does not have to stop" is very deceived and believes in a dangerous fallacy. There is no possible way an individual can be "IN" Christ and "watching porn" at the same time. It is impossible.

It is no different with all the other sins listed in those warning passages in the Bible.

Yet today there is a Gospel message being preached which makes an allowance for that behaviour to continue so long as "one is feeling convicted over it." It is a lie. Conviction is wrought to lead one to repentance.

The Bible does not say "be convicted" and "believe." It says REPENT and a genuine repentance involves leaving the pig pen.

mark54 · Feb 25, 2013

Skinski7 said:

You are obviously right in the above([providing people understand the true Gospel and we are speaking of wilful sin), I just wish you understood the core teaching of the Gosepl of Grace

If you did, you could be used I am sure to teach the Gospel, but you do not, and because you do not, it is all a waste sadly

You have misdirected zeal and that is a shame Skinski

Skinski7 · Feb 25, 2013

mark54 said:

What is the core teaching of grace? That you can sin and not surely die? That is what it sounds like to me.

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The sin STOPS!

mark54 · Feb 25, 2013

Skinski7 said:

loveme1 · Feb 26, 2013

Skinski7 said:

Hebrews 10

Obeyed from the heart....

SarahM777 · Feb 26, 2013

Skinski7 said:

UMM I think you may still leaving one very major part of the equation. (I could be wrong that you leave it out,but I have not heard you say it) Jesus was very clear on it,John mentions some form of the word over 100 times in his gospel. If you know what is at the heart of the gospel you should know what it is.

Skinski7 · Feb 26, 2013

mark54 said:

Skinski7 said:

Yet your view of this is clearly unbiblical for it pertains to how you answered my question as to whether a pornography addict has to forsake porn watching BEFORE forgiveness is granted.

I say that the porn watching must cease BEFORE forgiveness is granted. God's grace is His longsuffering (and influence on our hearts) up to that point where He patiently waits (and calls us) willing to grant mercy and forgiveness.

You on the other hand clearly hold the view that God offers the forgiveness and then one can go out and continue to watch porn reasoning that "there may be an ongoing struggle."

Tha major difference between your Gospel and mine is that your Gospel has a salvation WITHOUT being released from the bondage of sin while the Gospel that I subscribe has the release from this bondage.

To you grace is a cloak for ongoing vice. Now you won't say that grace means "you can do whatever you want" for you'll imply that "conviction must be present."

Therefore grace to you means "you CAN sin and not surely die." That is a deception of Satan and what you believe is simply a repackaging of the first lie.

If you didn't believe the lie of Satan then you would agree with this Scripture...

Isa 55:7 Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

And this...

Luk 15:18 I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
Luk 15:19 And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
Luk 15:20 And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
Luk 15:21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.

There is no forgiveness in sins nor is there salvation in sins. The Bible is so very clear on this issue.

Sin not having dominion over you is related to the hold of condemnation over a believer when they have had their PAST SINS forgiven. It does not mean that FUTURE CONDEMNATION is not possible.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Ongoing sin after being sanctified by the blood is treating the grace of God with contempt and the blood as unholy (ie. it is a denial that it can truly cleanse one of all unrighteousness).

Skinski7 · Feb 26, 2013

One thing to note though is that because a Biblical repentance message is not being preached many people come into a "notion" that they are saved when the sin never actually stopped and therefore it is quite evident that they never were actually sanctified by the blood.

Loveme1 posted some very good scriptures above.

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

It is simply impossible to approach God through the Holy of Holies by the blood of Christ if one is still engaged in the sins of the flesh. You cannot approach God in your rebellion. The Prodigal Son approached his father with a TRUE HEART (he had forsaken his rebellion and yielded to truth) and not with a heart still set on doing wickedness. In other words we OBEY FROM THE HEART (Rom 6:17) whereby we are set free (Rom 6:18).

Our hearts are sprinkled of an evil conscience by which our old sins are purged once and for all (Heb 9:14, 2Pet 1:9) yet this can only occur if we are WALKING IN THE LIGHT (1Jon 1:7).

We can only walk in the light if we forsake the pig pen (Luke 15:20) and approach God confessing our sins (1Joh 1:8-9). It is then that God will cleanse us of all unrighteousness.

If one is truly washed by the blood they are clean and pure. They are not still defiled and in bondage to their sin. Satan has done a very good job in perverting the power of the Gospel and so many buy into a counterfeit.

This verse means what it says.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Anyone who is still engaged in ongoing sin is still a bond servant to sin (Rom 6:16) and HAS NOT been redeemed (released from bondage by payment of ransom). The blood of Christ is the ransom payment which sets us free.

FREE INDEED!

Not some perceived abstract freedom whilst in practicality you remain a slave. That is a denial of the Gospel.

zone · Feb 26, 2013

i understand why you keep using the Lord's Description of HIS Death and Resurrection as application of your own righteousness:

you like to do it. you think it's about you. you make it about you.

as if your actual death, or your death to your own sin could do anything at all for you or the world.

it doesn't surprise me. you don't understand Why Jesus died and Rose.

but i wonder why it's tolerated. it's been brought to your attention multiple times.
that's what puzzles me.
why it's tolerated.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Skinski7 said:

in your efforts to preach cessation of sin, please be careful to never again apply to yourself the Grain of Wheat Jesus spoke o,f meaning Himself.

it's not about you.

there are enough exhortations concerning sin in the Christian life already given by the Apostles - we can all read.

John 12:24
Truly, truly, I say to you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains alone; but if it dies, it bears much fruit.

~

Jesus intimates that it was only by his death that he would be glorified in the salvation of men, and in the honors and rewards of heaven, Hebrews 2:9; "We see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor." Philippians 2:8-9; "he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross; wherefore God also hath highly exalted him," etc. Hebrews 12:2; "who, for the joy that was set before him, endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." See also Ephesians 1:20-23.

~

Our Lord compares himself to a grain of wheat; his death, to a grain sown and decomposed in the ground; his resurrection, to the blade which springs up from the dead grain; which grain, thus dying, brings forth an abundance of fruit. I must die to be glorified; and, unless I am glorified, I can not establish a glorious Church of Jews and Gentiles upon earth. In comparing himself thus to a grain of wheat, our Lord shows us: -

1. The cause of his death - the order of God, who had rated the redemption of the world at this price; as in nature he had attached the multiplication of the corn to the death or decomposition of the grain.

2. The end of his death - the redemption of a lost world; the justification, sanctification, and glorification of men: as the multiplication of the corn is the end for which the grain is sown and dies.

3. The mystery of his death, which we must credit without being able fully to comprehend, as we believe the dead grain multiplies itself, and we are nourished by that multiplication, without being able to comprehend how it is done.

~

it bringeth forth much fruit; it shoots out, and rises above ground, and appears in blade, and stalk, and ear, and produces many corns or grains of wheat; all which our Lord intends should be accommodated to himself, and to his death, and the fruits of it. He compares himself to a corn of wheat; to wheat, for the choiceness and excellency of it above all other grain, he being the chiefest among ten thousand, angels or men; and for the purity and cleanness of it, he being, even in his human nature, pure, and free from sin; and for its fruitfulness, he being fruitful in himself, and the cause of all fruitfulness in his people; and for its usefulness for food, he being the bread of life, and the finest of the wheat: and whereas the wheat must be threshed, and ground, and sifted, and kneaded, and baked, before it is fit for food; all this may express the sufferings and death of Christ, in order to be proper food for the faith of his people: and Christ here compares himself to a single corn of wheat, because he was of little account among men, and but little or nothing was expected by them from him; and chiefly because he was alone in the salvation of his people. The death of Christ is signified by the falling of the corn of wheat into the ground, and dying, and shows that Christ's death was not accidental, but designed; it was determined in the counsels and purposes of God, and intended for his glory and the redemption of men; even as wheat falls out of the hands of the sower, not casually, but on purpose, that it may die and spring up again, and produce an increase: and also, that the death of Christ was voluntary, both on his Father's part, and on his own; and was real, and not in appearance only, and yet was but for a short time; as the corn of wheat that dies, soon revives again, and is quickly above ground, so Christ, though he really died, did not long continue under the power of death, but rose again the third day, and now lives for ever.

~

(5) The death of Christ is as it were a sowing, which seems to be a dying of the corn, but indeed is the cause of a much greater harvest: and such as is the condition of the head, so will be the condition of the members.

(b) A wheat corn dies when it is changed in the ground, and becomes the root of a fruitful new plant.

~

12:24 Verily, verily. These prefatory words give solemn emphasis.

Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone. This statement enforces a great truth. The grain of wheat may remain in the granary for a thousand years and be preserved, but it is useless there. It neither reproduces, nor is food. It is when it falls into the ground and undergoes dissolution, that it brings forth fruit. It is fruitful by giving itself up. So, too, Christ must give himself up. His death was needful in order that he might impart life to the nation. There is a lesson here for disciples who would bear much fruit (Joh 15:8).

~

24. Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone; but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit-The necessity of His death is here brightly expressed, and its proper operation and fruit-life springing forth out of death-imaged forth by a beautiful and deeply significant law of the vegetable kingdom. For a double reason, no doubt, this was uttered-to explain what he had said of His death, as the hour of His own glorification, and to sustain His own Spirit under the agitation which was mysteriously coming over it in the view of that death.

~

The salvation of souls hitherto, and henceforward to the end of time, is owing to the dying of this Corn of wheat.

~

1. He foresees that plentiful harvest, in the conversion of the Gentiles, of which this was as it were the first-fruits, v. 23. Christ said to the two disciples who spoke a good word for these Greeks, but doubted whether they should speed or no, The hour is come when the Son of Man shall be glorified, by the accession of the Gentiles to the church, and in order to that he must be rejected of the Jews.

The calling, the effectual calling, of the Gentiles into the church of God greatly redounded to the glory of the Son of man. The multiplying of the redeemed was the magnifying of the Redeemer. [2.] there was a time, a set time, an hour, a certain hour, for the glorifying of the Son of man, which did come at last, when the days of his humiliation were numbered and finished, and he speaks of the approach of it with exultation and triumph: The hour is come.

(2.) The strange way in which this end was to be attained, and that was by the death of Christ, intimated in that similitude (v. 24): "Verily, verily, I say unto you, you to whom I have spoken of my death and sufferings, except a corn of wheat fall not only to, but into, the ground, and die, and be buried and lost, it abideth alone, and you never see any more of it; but if it die according to the course of nature (otherwise it would be a miracle) it bringeth forth much fruit, God giving to every seed its own body." Christ is the corn of wheat, the most valuable and useful grain

~

Note 2 at Joh 12:24: Jesus was comparing His death and resurrection to a grain of wheat being planted in the ground. Just as the grain of wheat has to "die" by being planted in the ground, Jesus would also be laid in the ground for three days. But as the single grain of wheat finds new life through this "death" and multiplies itself many times over, so Jesus would rise again and bring many others with Him from death unto life.

~

1 Corinthians 15
The Resurrection of Christ
1Now I would remind you, brothers,a of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, 2and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

3For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. 7Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. 8Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. 9For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. 11Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

The Resurrection of the Dead
12Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. 15We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19If in Christ we have hopeb in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied.

20But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27For “Godc has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.

mark54 · Feb 26, 2013

Skinski7 said:

mark54 said:

Yet your view of this is clearly unbiblical for it pertains to how you answered my question as to whether a pornography addict has to forsake porn watching BEFORE forgiveness is granted.

You just don't get it, nor will you ever.
If you say the lust of the flesh MUST CEASE BEFORE God will accept a person, THEY THEN HAVE TO BE UNDER LAW
You can't get around that Skinsky, though you may like to. For sin is the transgression of the law
And the power of sin is the law(1Cor15:56)

Your Gosepl, for a truly sincere person who loves God and wants to follow after his Son, if they believe what you say will in alll likelihood end up the Roman wretch as you put it
fOR IN REALITY THEY ARE UNDER THE LAW AS PAUL WAS THEN

I say that the porn watching must cease BEFORE forgiveness is granted. God's grace is His longsuffering (and influence on our hearts) up to that point where He patiently waits (and calls us) willing to grant mercy and forgiveness.

You are fixated with the strawman of watching pornographic films. What about masturbation, must that cease before God will accept a person? For anyone who has previously watched those films can still. gain pleasure of the flesh through the films they watched previously even after they have ceased watching them. Do you believe there is an acceptable difference there to God?
You on the other hand clearly hold the view that God offers the forgiveness and then one can go out and continue to watch porn reasoning that "there may be an ongoing struggle."

Victory will be seen Skinsky, BUT ONLY if the core principal of the Gospel of Grace PAUL WAS GIVEN BY CHRIST TO PREACH IS FOLLOWED.
Tha major difference between your Gospel and mine is that your Gospel has a salvation WITHOUT being released from the bondage of sin while the Gospel that I subscribe has the release from this bondage.

If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! [SUP]18 [/SUP]If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker

The above is the truty of Paul's Gospel Skinsky. It taks time in the real world, just reciting the literal scripture all of the time woodenly is not the reality, as the Phariees proved

To you grace is a cloak for ongoing vice. Now you won't say that grace means "you can do whatever you want" for you'll imply that "conviction must be present."

The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says: [SUP]16 [/SUP]“This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds.”[SUP][b][/SUP]

[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then he adds:
“Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more.”[SUP][c][/SUP]

As you cannot give me any explanation as to what the above enlarged means(certainly not the truth of what it means) you obviously do not understand the basics of the new covenant and therefore how it practically works out in the converts life

Therefore grace to you means "you CAN sin and not surely die." That is a deception of Satan and what you believe is simply a repackaging of the first lie.

QUOTE]

You need to understand the new covenenet, in particular the verses quoted from Hebrews, until you do, you will never truly understand the Gospel of Grace Paul was given to preach

Skinski7 · Feb 26, 2013

Mark,

Yet you will flee from the scriptures I quote. You won't even discuss them because you obviously don't believe them.

All you will do is spout the "rhetoric" of "if the sin has to stop then it means we are under law."

Jesus said "go and sin no more." What do you say to Jesus? "I am not under the law!"

Paul says "depart from iniquity." What do you say to Paul? "I am not under the law!"

James says lay aside all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness. Is James teaching lies?

That verse of not being under the dominion of the law is in the context of the Christian who has been set free from the condemnation under the law due to being washed by the blood of Christ, ie. their former sins do not have a hold over them. Paul then asks the rhetorical question if we should continue to sin because we are not under the law and he says GOD FORBID. Paul then explains the reason why. We are the slave of the one we obey, who we obey reveals our true master.

Not being under the law does not give you a license to keep on sinning which is exactly what you are trying to assert.

What is the opposite of not having to cease from sin?

The opposite is continuing to sin right?

You are trying to defend not having to cease from sin. You are defending the right to sin under grace.

Cannot you see it? It is as obvious as the nose one someone's face.

Somehow Satan has deceived you into defending sin in such a way that you don't even realise that is what you are doing.

Skinski7 · Feb 26, 2013

Zone...

The grain of wheat is applicable to both Jesus and His saints. We die with Him.

Joh 12:21 The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.
Joh 12:22 Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus.
Joh 12:23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
Joh 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.
Joh 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
Joh 12:26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.
Joh 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
Joh 12:28 Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.
Joh 12:29 The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.
Joh 12:30 Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.
Joh 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Joh 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

Luk 9:22 Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.
Luk 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
Luk 9:24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Grain of wheat dies.
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Grain of wheat dies in order that it bear fruit.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Grain of wheat dies in order that it bear fruit.
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. We die to sin being our master.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

The cross is not simply something people trust in. The cross is something people partake in.

Modern theologians disconnect the aspect of "us dying with Him" as related to the "crucifixion of our flesh" in a practical sense.

Instead they teach "us dying with Him" is forensic in application and is grounded in simply "trusting in the finished work."

The doctrine of Penal Substitution has so perverted the minds of these men that they simply cannot conceive that WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING. In their minds to imply that WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING is the equivalent of denying the "Finished Work on the Cross."

They reason they hold this view is that they truly believe that reconciliation to God is purely via a judicial exchange and thus HAS NOTHING to do with the conduct of a believer. Anything at all related to conduct infringes on their false notion of the judicial exchange.

What is truly diabolical is how Satan has managed to corrupt the Redemption message in such a way as to implant hooks which negate the "doing" which God requires. These hooks serve as an antidote against any allusion that "doing" has anything whatsoever to do with justification.

You see all God wants is for human beings to come into agreement with Him. He wants human beings to align themselves with reality. Sin is when human beings hold the counsel of God in contempt and exercise their will contrary to the will of God. The plan of Redemption through Jesus Christ is to bring those in rebellion back into a right relationship whereby they are aligned with the will of God.

Satan wants man to walk contrary to the will of God and thus he attempts to deceive people into believing that they can walk contrary to God and not suffer condemnation. Satan beguiled Eve in this way and the false teachers do the exact same thing today.

Satan is a roaring lion, not a pussy cat.

He that have an ear let him hear.

Professor · Feb 26, 2013

Satan is not deceiving us into defending sin. We, as Christians, are pained when we sin. But truth is, we all continue to sin. Each one of us. Are you ever angry? Do you ever lust? Do you ever gossip or slander? I mentioned, on a different post, evidence for this. Look at the Lord's Prayer -- the prayer that Jesus taught us to pray. It includes these words: forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who have sinned against us. And Peter asks Jesus how often he should forgive the person who sins against him. Peter asks "seven times?" and Jesus answers "seventy times seven times." From Jesus' mouth, He understands that we will sin. Does this give us license to intentionally sin? Of course not. But we still do it. When we do it, God brings it to our attention, and we are pained that we hurt Him. We ask forgiveness and we start anew.

Skinski7 said:

zone · Feb 26, 2013

Skinski7 said:

you didn't die an agonizing death on a cross.
i doubt you've even been slapped in the mouth.

so you quit porn. big deal

you must be born again.
if you had been, you'd never go on like you do.

over.

mark54 · Feb 26, 2013

Skinski7 said:

mark54 said:

You know that sin is transgressdion of the law.

Is it acting in love to demand of others what you do not even attempt to do yourself?

No, I guess yo are going to hell then Skinsky(by your rules)

Is it acting in love to crush people with impossible demands you yourself do not even try and keep?
Nope, I guess you are going to hell then Skinski

You say the Christyian does not have to sdo any good work in helping others, just crucify their flesh and make of themself a pure heart. Outrageous Skinsky, ands a lie, here lets quote the literal scripture, you are condemned again, so you are going to hell(according to your rules)

Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. James1:27

So Skinski you have no pure asnd faultlerss religion, do you? So by your own standards you are guilty, you must go to hell

Hve byou ever fasted Skinski and told anyone you fasted, or wanted in your cheart for anyone to know you fasted?

If so you are a hypocrite,

If someone who maligned you, lied about you and poersecuted you and asked you to lend to them, would you do it with only love in your heart for the person who asked of you? And would you never expect anytghing back from them? If you can't answerf that according to Christ'sv teaching, you are a sinner Skinski, you must go to hell.
Have byou ever called anyone a fool Skinski?
If so you sinned deliberaqtely, you're going to hell

Do you not invite friends and family home for a measl but raqther the poor lame and blind?
If not you are a sinner Skinski, you are ignoring Christ's teachings, you are ghoing to hell

I'll quote siomne more scripture once you have responded to the above

I am going to do what you do now. Lets see if you pass the test according to the literal scriptures, or whether byou arte goling to hell too along with everyone who goes to mainstream churches(that is what you beliecvew is it not?)

Don't try for cheap grace Skinski. IE If I don't watch porno movies, get drunk, sleep with someone smoke, or swear I am OK. You are not Skinsky, nowhere near

Reformed Theology - Penal Substitution and the Imputed Righteousness of Christ

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