The Trinity

[GraceBeUntoYou]

Re: You have nothing...

You are trying to wriggle out of plainly answering the question as everyone can see

I'd hate to see some of your interpretations, that sir, is certain.

 

[mark54]

You see this is the problem the fanatics have on websites like these, Gracebeuntoyou is now stymied, he cannot answer the question repeatedly put to him forthrightly, he has to try and dance around plainly answering it, for we all know the ministers won't preach from the pulpit(or hardly any would) what the fanatical head theologist on the internet will
The head theologist who is led of scholars and theologians and their belief in their own natural intellegence/little grey calls to learn of their great studying




You have just said that scripture proclaims a person must believe Jesus is the Son of God AND God Himself unto salvation, you have also stated the following:

'I believe it is a ministers responsibility to clearly tell their flock from the pulpit any salvational belief as well as the consequences of getting it wrong'

So bearing the above in mind, please plainly and forthrightly answer the question below



Will you roundly condemn as unfit to preach the Gosepl, any minister who wil not plainly state from the pulpit that in order for a person to inherit eternal life they MUST believe Christ is not only the Son of God but God Himself also. A belief he is simply the Son of God and no more is insufficient and means a person cannot be saved with that belief and will therefore go to hell


GRACEBEUNTOYOU
If at anytime you feel you can plainly answer the above I will continue discussion with you
If not, it appears to me you hold no deep convction of the faith from the heart, only the head

 

[mark54]

If these head theologists/fanatics are right, nearly all the Trinitarin ministers should be thrown out of the pulpit, for clearly they are refusing to plainly state salvific belief from the pulpit and the consequences of getting it wrong

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

You see this is the problem the fanatics have on websites like these, Gracebeuntoyou is now stymied, he cannot answer the question repeatedly put to him forthrightly, he has to try and dance around plainly answering it, for we all know the ministers won't preach from the pulpit(or hardly any would) what the fanatical head theologist on the internet will
The head theologist who is led of scholars and theologians and their belief in their own natural intellegence/little grey calls to learn




You have just said that scripture proclaims a person must believe Jesus is the Son of God AND God Himself unto salvation, you have also stated the following:

'I believe it is a ministers responsibility to clearly tell their flock from the pulpit any salvational belief as well as the consequences of getting it wrong'

So bearing the above in mind, please plainly and forthrightly answer the question below



Will you roundly condemn as unfit to preach the Gosepl, any minister who wil not plainly state from the pulpit that in order for a person to inherit eternal life they MUST believe Christ is not only the Son of God but God Himself also. A belief he is simply the Son of God and no more is insufficient and means a person cannot be saved with that belief and will therefore go to hell


GRACEBEUNTOYOU
If at anytime you feel you can plainly answer the above I will continue discussion with you
If not, it appears to me you hold no deep convction of the faith from the heart, only the head

...that moment when you think someone is ignoring you when in reality you just didn't press send.

 

[mark54]

You see this is the problem the fanatics have on websites like these, Gracebeuntoyou is now stymied, he cannot answer the question repeatedly put to him forthrightly, he has to try and dance around plainly answering it, for we all know the ministers won't preach from the pulpit(or hardly any would) what the fanatical head theologist on the internet will
The head theologist who is led of scholars and theologians and their belief in their own natural intellegence/little grey calls to learn




You have just said that scripture proclaims a person must believe Jesus is the Son of God AND God Himself unto salvation, you have also stated the following:

'I believe it is a ministers responsibility to clearly tell their flock from the pulpit any salvational belief as well as the consequences of getting it wrong'

So bearing the above in mind, please plainly and forthrightly answer the question below



Will you roundly condemn as unfit to preach the Gosepl, any minister who wil not plainly state from the pulpit that in order for a person to inherit eternal life they MUST believe Christ is not only the Son of God but God Himself also. A belief he is simply the Son of God and no more is insufficient and means a person cannot be saved with that belief and will therefore go to hell


GRACEBEUNTOYOU
If at anytime you feel you can plainly answer the above I will continue discussion with you
If not, it appears to me you hold no deep convction of the faith from the heart, only the head

Anytime you want to plainly answer the oft put question FORTHRIGHTLY feel free to do so

 

[mark54]

And I would refer you to my post prior to your previous post. The answer is really quite clear. While I do not condemn them, I would be one to say that if they do not adhere to what the Scriptures proclaim, that Christ is both, the Son of God, and God by nature, then they stand condemned

Just read the above

So you believe nearly all the Trinitarian ministers in the churches stand condemned

But you wont personally condemn them as unfit to preach even though they won't preach salvational belief from the pulpit and the consequences of getting it wrong(according to you)
Wonderful, so that is how one Trinitarian on the internet sees the ministers in Trinitarian churchers, they nearly all stand condemned

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

You see this is the problem the fanatics have on websites like these, Gracebeuntoyou is now stymied, he cannot answer the question repeatedly put to him forthrightly, he has to try and dance around plainly answering it, for we all know the ministers won't preach from the pulpit(or hardly any would) what the fanatical head theologist on the internet will
The head theologist who is led of scholars and theologians and their belief in their own natural intellegence/little grey calls to learn




You have just said that scripture proclaims a person must believe Jesus is the Son of God AND God Himself unto salvation, you have also stated the following:

'I believe it is a ministers responsibility to clearly tell their flock from the pulpit any salvational belief as well as the consequences of getting it wrong'

So bearing the above in mind, please plainly and forthrightly answer the question below



Will you roundly condemn as unfit to preach the Gosepl, any minister who wil not plainly state from the pulpit that in order for a person to inherit eternal life they MUST believe Christ is not only the Son of God but God Himself also. A belief he is simply the Son of God and no more is insufficient and means a person cannot be saved with that belief and will therefore go to hell


GRACEBEUNTOYOU
If at anytime you feel you can plainly answer the above I will continue discussion with you
If not, it appears to me you hold no deep convction of the faith from the heart, only the head

Anytime you want to plainly answer the oft put question FORTHRIGHTLY feel free to do so

I really wish that I could ignore the fact that you're ignoring me.

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

First of all, most pastors in so-called "Trinitarian churches" are not Trinitarian, a vast majority are Modalist, and are doctrinally ignorant. I believe that if the minister teaches anything other than what's Scriptural, they then stand condemned. If they teach that Christ's Deity is not salvific, or teach against Christ's Deity in general, or if they teach contrary to the resurrection of Christ, or anything of that nature, they stand condemned. My position is that every critical detail that Scripture declares about Christ is salvific.

 

[mark54]

And I would refer you to my post prior to your previous post. The answer is really quite clear. While I do not condemn them, I would be one to say that if they do not adhere to what the Scriptures proclaim, that Christ is both, the Son of God, and God by nature, then they stand condemned

Just read the above

So you believe nearly all the Trinitarian ministers in the churches stand condemned

But you wont personally condemn them as unfit to preach even though they won't preach salvational belief from the pulpit and the consequences of getting it wrong(according to you)
Wonderful, so that is how one Trinitarian on the internet sees the ministers in Trinitarian churchers, they nearly all stand condemned


I don't know, so the theologian and scholar on the internet clearly does not believe the ministers in their churches are doing their jobh proplerly, and most of them are condemned

I dunno, why are you people on the intrernet, why are you not preaching in the churchers instead of the ministers and telling people plainly the truth friom the pulpit, truth that the ministers mainly refuse to preach, tis a mystery to me, it truly is

 

[mark54]

First of all, most pastors in so-called "Trinitarian churches" are not Trinitarian, a vast majority are Modalist, and are doctrinally ignorant. I believe that if the minister teaches anything other than what's Scriptural, they then stand condemned. If they teach that Christ's Deity is not salvific, against Christ's Deity in general, or if they teach contrary to the resurrection of Christ, or anything of that nature, they stand condemned.

I have been to various Trinitarian churches for over 30 years
I HAVE NEVER ONCE heard any minister from the pulpit plainly state Christ is God Himself, let alone state eternal life hinges on believing it
In nearly all cases IT IS AN INTERNET THING of people making these demands
And in most cases on the internet it is the scholar/theologian who makes these demands

I have to go out, will respond to any subsequent questions later, but as you believe nearly all the ministers in Trinitarian churches stand condemned, but you are right, I have to do some deep thinking about your comments, will respond further later

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

And I would refer you to my post prior to your previous post. The answer is really quite clear. While I do not condemn them, I would be one to say that if they do not adhere to what the Scriptures proclaim, that Christ is both, the Son of God, and God by nature, then they stand condemned

Just read the above

So you believe nearly all the Trinitarian ministers in the churches stand condemned

But you wont personally condemn them as unfit to preach even though they won't preach salvational belief from the pulpit and the consequences of getting it wrong(according to you)
Wonderful, so that is how one Trinitarian on the internet sees the ministers in Trinitarian churchers, they nearly all stand condemned


I don't know, so the theologian and scholar on the internet clearly does not believe the ministers in their churches are doing their jobh proplerly, and most of them are condemned

I dunno, why are you people on the intrernet, why are you not preaching in the churchers instead of the ministers and telling people plainly the truth friom the pulpit, truth that the ministers mainly refuse to preach, tis a mystery to me, it truly is

Evidently you've never been to a Reformed Church, perhaps that of the Presbyterian, or Reformed Baptist "flavor." There are many pastors that do their duty, and then you have many more that are of the Joel Osteen type.

 

[mark54]

Evidently you've never been to a Reformed Church, perhaps that of the Presbyterian, or Reformed Baptist "flavor." There are many pastors that do their duty, and then you have many more that are of the Joel Osteen type.

You believe nearly all of trinitarian mnisters stand condemned. though I will congratulate you, at least you have admitted that is what you believe, no one else has actually put their head above the parapet so to speak
Now I have to go out, as I said, will respond to any subsequent questions later, PROVIDING they relate to the subject being discussed SALVIFIC belief unto salvation according to scripture

 

[GraceBeUntoYou]

You believe nearly all of trinitarian mnisters stand condemned. though I will congratulate you, at least you have admitted that is what you believe, no one else has actually put their head above the parapet so to speak
Now I have to go out, as I said, will respond to any subsequent questions later, PROVIDING they relate to the subject being discussed SALVIFIC belief unto salvation according to scripture

That's not exactly what I said. What I said is that those pastors who teach against key elements of the Christian faith, or what Scripture indicates to be apart of that faith (i.e., 2 Peter 1.1 does indicate that Christ's Deity was a key tenet to both, the author, and his congregations faith), those are the ones that stand condemned. The churches around here (unless they're Reformed, or apart of the Southern Baptist Convention), they usually do not tend to have strong doctrinal sermons as they should. That does not necessarily mean that the pastor of that congregation stands condemned just because one Sunday they preach something other than Trinitarian doctrine. There are other very important doctrines that are also salvific, the Trinity is just one in a pool of others (though, I would consider it to be high on the "priori-tie" list).

 

[JLHillsSr]

Matthew 1 vs 20, Jesus is of the Holy Spirit.

Luk 1:35 KJV - And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

This is the meaning of Mat. 1:20

 

[JLHillsSr]

One question
When did Christ become God on earth
At His Baptism or birth?
If he was fully God from birth, why did the Spirit descend on him in bodily shape/form at his Baptism, what was the need?

If Christ was not fully God and man until his Baptism, who was he before this?

he is the word became flesh... concieved by the the holy spirit in mary's womb... At CONCEPTION.
The Holy spirit descended to show he was messiah... to identify, empower/recieve and example... TRINITY, TRINITY, TRINITY.

This was not the Holy Spirit. It was Jehovah revealing himself.

Mat 3:17 KJV - And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Luk 3:22 KJV - And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

The voice is the Father.

Mat 17:5 KJV - While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
Mar 1:11 KJV - And there came a voice from heaven, [saying], Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Mar 9:7 KJV - And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
Luk 9:35 KJV - And there came a voice out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.

 

[JLHillsSr]

Re: You have nothing...

Now this is eternal life(note what constitutes eternal life) That they may know you(the Father) the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent
John17:3

Is there anything else you want to discuss, or do you not accept the plain words of Christ

Christ clearly knows his rank in identifying The Father above him. That however proves nothing.

 

[JLHillsSr]

Re: You have nothing...

Here's the problem, as Trinitarians, we believe that Christ is the Son of God, absolutely. We also believe, however, that the Son has the same ontological nature as the Father, and is in that sense, God (John 1.1, Hebrews 1.3, Colossians 2.9). We do not affirm that Christ is God to the exclusion of His Sonship. No, we affirm that Christ is both, the Son of God, and God by His inherent nature. Yes, I believe it is a ministers responsibility to clearly tell their flock from the pulpit any salvational belief as well as the consequences of getting it wrong. Anyone who teaches against what the inspired text of Scriptures proclaims concerning Christ is condemned... regardless of what the issue is, whether the virgin birth, the physical resurrection, the pre-existence of Christ, or Christ's divine identity as God.

Just an addition if I may:


Psa 82:6 KJV - I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.
Isa 41:23 KJV - Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye [are] gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold [it] together.
Jhn 10:34 KJV - Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Jhn 8:28 KJV - Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.


If he speaks only of the things that the Father teaches him, what is being said in the prior verses? Maybe he is making an example of being gods!!!

 

[JLHillsSr]

Re: You have nothing...

John 17:3 has been explained. If you can not see the clarity of the plain text, it is no one's fault but your's.
It clearly states that you must believe on both the Father and the Son.

 

[JLHillsSr]

I have been to various Trinitarian churches for over 30 years
I HAVE NEVER ONCE heard any minister from the pulpit plainly state Christ is God Himself, let alone state eternal life hinges on believing it
In nearly all cases IT IS AN INTERNET THING of people making these demands
And in most cases on the internet it is the scholar/theologian who makes these demands

I have to go out, will respond to any subsequent questions later, but as you believe nearly all the ministers in Trinitarian churches stand condemned, but you are right, I have to do some deep thinking about your comments, will respond further later

This is because they do not see Jehovah as being indwelt in the Body. They see that the Body is God.

 

[PS]

Re: You have nothing...

Just an addition if I may:


Psa 82:6 KJV - I have said, Ye [are] gods; and all of you [are] children of the most High.
Isa 41:23 KJV - Shew the things that are to come hereafter, that we may know that ye [are] gods: yea, do good, or do evil, that we may be dismayed, and behold [it] together.
Jhn 10:34 KJV - Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?

Jhn 8:28 KJV - Then said Jesus unto them, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am [he], and [that] I do nothing of myself; but as my Father hath taught me, I speak these things.


If he speaks only of the things that the Father teaches him, what is being said in the prior verses? Maybe he is making an example of being gods!!!

Psalm 82 is important, it tells us the the judges who are ordinary people are called 'god' and this explains so much that is confusing in the Old Testament.

Psalm 82.
1 God stands in the congregation of the mighty; he judges among the gods. (Notice multiple gods and the God at the beginning should be lower case.)

2 How long will you judge unjustly, and show partiality to the wicked? Selah. (The Almighty is a Just God and would not favour the wicked.)

(God in verse 1 is capitalized due to it being at the beginning of a sentence, in reality this is a human judge and the psalmist is asking how long will they continue to judge unjustly and favour the wicked. This is not Almighty God.)

3 Defend the poor and fatherless; do justice to the afflicted and needy.
4 Deliver the poor and needy; free them from the hand of the wicked.

(The psalmist is pleading with the judges who they call god to defend the poor, needy and the fatherless which they are not doing. Almighty God teaches we should look after the poor and the needy and these human gods were not doing that.)

5 They do not know, nor do they understand; they walk about in darkness; all the foundations of the earth are unstable.

(The Almighty God does not walk in darkness and these human judges who are called god are doing untold harm to the foundation of the nation.)

6 I said, “You are gods, and all of you are children of the Most High.

(The Most High was the chief judge of the Israilites including Moses they were not the Almighty and those under him are his children who are all judges and they are also gods.)

7 But you shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.”

(They will die like men because they are men.)

8 Arise, O God, judge the earth; for You shall inherit all nations.

(Finally the Psalmist pleads with Almighty God to step in and make judgement. This is what the almighty has done and this is why the Jewish Nation is suffering)