The Trinity

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Jan 11, 2013
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John's statement in 1 John 5.20 shows that the One who is eternal life is also the true God. In the context, the Lord Jesus Christ is the nearest antecedent of "He is" (houtos). This point, along with 1 John 1.2, makes it apparent that John is calling the Lord Jesus the true God.

You may disagree and claim that John has already identified someone else as the One who is true, namely God. Furthermore, the Lord Jesus in John 17.3 called the Father the only true God, however, in context neither of them deny that Christ isn't God, and I have referred you to my work on a previous thread.

However, should you object, this doesn't solve the dilemma for you, but only strengthens the Trinitarian argument for two reasons. First, your interpretation leaves us with two individuals who are called eternal life, the Father and the Son. This would only prove that the Lord Jesus is equal to the Father in essence and nature, having a characteristic that only God intrinsically possesses. That is unless, of course, you want to claim that even creatures can be called eternal life.

As I have also pointed out previously, 2 Peter 1.1 describes the faith of the author and his audience, while maintaining that Christ is both, "our God and Savior."
Let me ask again. Where is the PLAIN scripture that states a person must believe Jesus is the Son of God AND also the one true God to inherit eternal life?

I can give you the clearest of scripture to support my belief

If anyone believes Jesus is the Son of God, God lives in him and he in God(they are saved)
1John 4:15

So I guess you believe John is wrong as well as Christ


I repeat, where is your plain scripture, for that is what I am giving you
 
G

GraceBeUntoYou

Guest
I am giving you plain Scripture. The burden is on you to prove otherwise.
 
Jan 11, 2013
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I am giving you plain Scripture. The burden is on you to prove otherwise.
What??????????????????????????

You have given me NO SCRIPTURE that states eternal life hinges on believing Christ is the Son of God AND God Himself, I have already given you two very plain scriptures to show you that is NOT THE CASE

You are letting yourself down by stating the burden is on me.
The BURDEN is on you to come up with a scripture
 
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I am giving you plain Scripture. The burden is on you to prove otherwise.
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
1John 5:13

There's another one
You have to believe in the name Son of God, not Son of God, PLUS God Himself unto salvation
 
G

GraceBeUntoYou

Guest
Sure I have, reading glasses perhaps? Take a gander at 1 John 5.20 once more. Even if you disagree, I must ask... If one does not believe in God's eternality, or believe God to be intrinsically good, but rather an evil God as the gnostic Marcion believed, is this a salvific issue?
 
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Sure I have, reading glasses perhaps? Take a gander at 1 John 5.20 once more. Even if you disagree, I must ask... If one does not believe in God's eternality, or believe God to be intrinsically good, but rather an evil God as the gnostic Marcion believed, is this a salvific issue?
I told you, I am discussing your point where you have stated a person MUST believe Christ is the Son of God AND God Himself unto salvation, and you say this is what scripture states

I have now given you THREE PLAIN SCRIPTURES that prove your assertion to be false, so far you have given me NONE
 
G

GraceBeUntoYou

Guest
I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.
1John 5:13

There's another one
You have to believe in the name Son of God, not Son of God, PLUS God Himself unto salvation

It's not simply believing that Christ is the Son of God, for the even the demons believe (Luke 4.41, "And demons also came out of many, crying, 'You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew that he was the Christ'''). It's about knowing the true Christ in a way the Scripture indicates, and fellow-ship with Him in an intimate way.
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
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Re: You have nothing...

But, you are not led of the Holy Spirit in this subject, and therefore have no true understanding of it. You reason according to the intellectual mind of man, not the spiritual reality. You judge according to the letter of your theology
Wow, that's pretty judgmental to tell someone they are not being led by the Holy Spirit, just because you don't agree with actual truth that they share.

The reality is, if you don't believe Jesus is God then you are denying God became flesh and dwelt among us. This is a serious thing, because it's a foundational truth of the Christian faith. Denying that Jesus is God is to view Him as just a prophet, like the Muslims believe. Only God is perfect. God in the flesh (Jesus) was perfect. To deny Jesus is God is to deny that God died for us and shed His blood, in the flesh, for us.

Anyone that denies God became flesh - I can't see how that person can know Him?

I wonder if you have ever got down on your knees and begged God from your heart to show you truth from the Holy Spirit, and trusted him completely to show you what you may learn. Scripturally that must be impossible, and sadly, that leaves you with wasted head knowledge, for in effect you condemn people for standing on the plain words of Christ unto salvation. And a day is coming when all of you people who do this will be answerable for it, on that day there will be no audience, no one to impress, and I wonder what you and others will say
Why is it that you heap coal on the heads of others and judge their walk with Christ? Anyone who is born of Spirit is equally yoked and it is said that if God is for us, who can be against us.

I don't know where you get the impression that believers on this site are trying to impress? All believers that are born of God are called to witness to others. We all have different spiritual gifts and use them accordingly. Some have the gift of knowledge, some have the gift of discernment, some of teachers, some of pastors. All believers love the truth and don't like falsehoods that lead people astray. We are here to be edified and to edify.

You are denying God became flesh, so this is a pretty serious thing to deny. You don't believe that God became a man, called Jesus. So is it true then that you also deny His virgin birth?

You need to read all of scripture, not just snippets, because the whole book flows together perfectly.


Some of you must be very frustrated
I have a sneaking suspicion a few of you believe you should be in the pulpit instead of your ministers who you obviously feel cannot do their jobs properly.

I wonder how full a church would be if it heard your preaching?????
If a pastor preaches something different to the truth, then we are to reject them. Just because someone has the title of pastor, does not make them correct. All God's children are called to witness to the truth, not just pastors. If a pastor is teaching false doctrine then a child of God can approach them on it. Don't be deceived by titles. There are many false teachers in the world, so we must check everything.

You know what... God even uses young children.
 
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It's not simply believing that Christ is the Son of God, for the even the demons believe (Luke 4.41, "And demons also came out of many, crying, 'You are the Son of God!” But he rebuked them and would not allow them to speak, because they knew that he was the Christ'''). It's about knowing the true Christ in a way the Scripture indicates, and fellow-ship with Him in an intimate way.
Well firstly I doubt the demons are trusting in the shed blood of christ to inherit eternal life
I absolutely agree it is about knowing Christ and fellowshipping with him in an intimate way

The problem is though I have the plain scripture as to what is required belief to inehrit eternal life, you have none.

And so, neither Christ, Paul, Peter, James, or John commanded anyone to believe Christ was the one true God Himself unto salvation, neither do nearly all of the Trinitarian ministers from their pulpits, neither would at least 90%(proabably far higher than that) of people who go to Trinitarian churches
But people who are well read of scholars and theologians on the internet do demand it

So a plain fact, either a small handful of you on websites like these are right, in which case nearly all of the Trinitarian mnisters should be slung out of the pulpit, or you are wrong
And lets add to that, if you are right, Peter, Paul, James and John, either woefully failed their readers, or they did not have the spiritual insight you and a few others do have on websites like these
 
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Re: You have nothing...

Wow, that's pretty judgmental to tell someone they are not being led by the Holy Spirit, just because you don't agree with actual truth that they share.

.
I will stop your post there, anyone who will not accept the requirement of belief unto salvation that Christ himself laid down by adding to it cannot be being led of the Holy Spirit in doing so, unless the Spirit of God can contradict the word of God, in Trinitarian terms God then contradicts God and the belief collapses
I did not even bother to read the rest of your post I am afraid

Can you confirm you believe a person can be led of the Holy Spirit to contradict the requirement of belief unto salvation that Christ himself laid down by adding to it?
 
Nov 19, 2012
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You have nothing.....again...

You have given me NO SCRIPTURE that states eternal life hinges on believing Christ is the Son of God AND God Himself, I have already given you two very plain scriptures to show you that is NOT THE CASE

Keep moving those goal posts, brother...

Next, you will want to see it written upside-down, and backwards, and on the second tuesday of vernal equinox...


 
Jan 11, 2013
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Re: You have nothing.....again...

Keep moving those goal posts, brother...

Next, you will want to see it written upside-down, and backwards, and on the second tuesday of vernal equinox...
They are not my goalposts, read back a few pages.
 
G

GraceBeUntoYou

Guest
Well firstly I dsoubtb the demons are trusting in the shed blood of christ to inherit eternal life
I absolutely agree it is about knowing Christ and fellowshipping with him in an intimate way

The problem is though I have the plain scripture as to what is required belief to inehrit eternal life, you have none.

And so, neither Christ, Paul, Peter, James, or John commanded anyone to believe Christ was the one true God Hmself unto salvation, neither do nearly all of the Trinitarian ministers from their pulpits, neither would at least 90%(proabably far higher than that) of people who go to Trinitarian churches
But people who are well read of scholars sand theologians on the internet do demand it

So a plain fact, either a small handful of you on websites like these are right, in which case nearly all of the Trinitarian mnisters should be slung out of the pulpit, or you are wrong
And lets add to that, ifr you are right, Peter, Paul, James and John, either woefully fasiled their readers, or they did not have the spiritual insight youv and a few others do have on these websites(plus maybe a small handful of ministers)

Oh, no, John only makes this the central point of His gospel by referring to Christ as God twice in the opening chapter (John 1.1, 1.18), and then goes on to record the confession of doubting Thomas as Christ as, "My Lord and My God!" This same John only speaks of Christ as the uncreated One (John 1.3, “All things were made through Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made”), the One whom the prophet Isaiah saw in a vision sitting upon the throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple (John 12.41 [c.f. Isaiah 6.1-9]). He is confessed to be the direct object of prayer (John 14.14, "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it"), and is referred to in ways only suite for the Divine, saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End (Rev 1.17, 2.8, 3.14, 22.13).”

The apostle Paul warns the church in Corinth that Christ should not be put to the test through way of reminder of what happened to the Israelites when they likewise tested Him (1 Cor. 10.9 [c.f. Psalm 78.18, Numbers 21.5-6]). This Christ that Paul warns of is One who had pre-existed with the Father whom He was equal to (Philippians 2.4-6), possessing all the fullness which makes God, God (Colossians 2.9). He is given doxologies, praise, and thanksgiving (2 Tim. 4:18), both, as God (Titus 2.13, Romans 9.5), and YHWH (Romans 10.13 [c.f. Acts 2.16-21, Joel 2.32]).

Peter addresses his audience, professing ever so clearly that Christ is both, “our God and Savior” (2 Peter 1.1), the One whom Isaiah speaks of when he says, “But do not fear what it fears, or be in dread; honor the LORD Himself as holy” (Isaiah 8.12-13 LXX [c.f. 1 Peter 3.14-15]).

This is the One whom the author of Hebrews denies is an angel (Hebrews 1), but confesses what both, John and Paul have already confessed: All things were created “in,” and “through” Him (Hebrews 1.2 [c.f. John 1.3, Colossians 1.16]), He is ontologically equal to the Father (Hebrews 1.3 [c.f. John 1.1c, Colossians 2.9]), and pre-existed as nothing less than YHWH (Hebrews 1.10 [c.f. John 12.41, Romans 10.13]).

These men, these Apostles frequently use the “Spirit of Christ,” and “Holy Spirit”/”Spirit of God” interchangeably of one another (Acts 16.1-8; Romans 8.9-10 [c.f. Phil. 1.19; Gal. 4.6; 1 Peter 1.10-11]), invariably teaching the complete, and total Deity of Christ.

And in John’s apocalyptic literature, remarkably, he describes the worship due to Christ in a parallel fashion that is due to God (Revelation 4.8-11 [c.f. Revelation 5.8-14]):

"And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within ; and day and night they do not cease to say, "holy , holy, holy is the Lord God , the Almighty, who was and who is and is to come." And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, "Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created." (Revelation 4.8-11)

"And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!" The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped." (Revelation 5:8-14)

But that's all just coincidence, right?
 
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Jan 11, 2013
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Re: You have nothing...

Wow, that's pretty judgmental to tell someone they are not being led by the Holy Spirit, just because you don't agree with actual truth that they share.


Above has been answered

The reality is, if you don't believe Jesus is God then you are denying God became flesh and dwelt among us. This is a serious thing, because it's a foundational truth of the Christian faith. Denying that Jesus is God is to view Him as just a prophet, like the Muslims believe. Only God is perfect. God in the flesh (Jesus) was perfect. To deny Jesus is God is to deny that God died for us and shed His blood, in the flesh, for us.

You just see it can you. THE MINISTERS DON'T PREACH THE ABOVE FROM THE PULPITS AND TELL PEOPLE THEY MUST BELIEVE IT TO INHERIT ETERNAL LIFE. Why oh why can none of you who want to argue this with me take your blinkers off and actually admit it. Yet you will write the above and TOTALLY IGNORE the fact your ministers WILL NOT PLAINLY PREACH IT FROM THE PULPIT(well maybe an odd few actually would) So what does that say about your ministers if you are right?
Anyone that denies God became flesh - I can't see how that person can know Him?


Why is it that you heap coal on the heads of others and judge their walk with Christ? Anyone who is born of Spirit is equally yoked and it is said that if God is for us, who can be against us.

Me judge their walk, are you serious? It isn't me going around telling people they aren't saved. It's people like you either questioning if I am saved or telling me I cannot be saved by standing on the plain words of Christ unto salvation

I don't know where you get the impression that believers on this site are trying to impress? All believers that are born of God are called to witness to others. We all have different spiritual gifts and use them accordingly. Some have the gift of knowledge, some have the gift of discernment, some of teachers, some of pastors. All believers love the truth and don't like falsehoods that lead people astray. We are here to be edified and to edify.

I believe there are some wonderful Christians on this website who are far more Spirit filled than me and know much more than me, but so far NONE OF THEM have come into this debate and laid extra biblical demands unto salvation

You are denying God became flesh, so this is a pretty serious thing to deny. You don't believe that God became a man, called Jesus. So is it true then that you also deny His virgin birth?

So now I am asked if I deny the virgin birth
The Holy Spirit was on Christ in Bodily shape/form when he walked this earth, do you agree?

You need to read all of scripture, not just snippets, because the whole book flows together perfectly.

What you mean is the whole book flows perfectly if you ignore much plainly written scripture in it


If a pastor preaches something different to the truth, then we are to reject them. Just because someone has the title of pastor, does not make them correct. All God's children are called to witness to the truth, not just pastors. If a pastor is teaching false doctrine then a child of God can approach them on it. Don't be deceived by titles. There are many false teachers in the world, so we must check everything.

But its fine for hardly any of the pastors to plainly preach from the pulpit what you have written above regarding the core of the Christian faith and neccessary belief unto salvation

You know what... God even uses young children.
Well firstly if I remeber correctly you believe no catholic who chooses to remain in the catholic church can be saved, so I guess you've condemned over a billion people to hell in one fail swoop, that's quite an achievement.
Now I have written this before but I guess you didn't see it

I have spent over 30 years in Trinitarian churches, had no doctrinal problems whatsoever. No minister from the pulpit ever stated you must believe Christ is God Himself unto salvation, no parishoner ever spoke to me and said I must believe that, I gave my testimony, helped out at church clubs was filled with the Spirit, spoke in tongues and this was confirmed as genuine. Everything was dandy.
Then I come on the internet, and some of you people have frankly made most of the Trinitarian churches look ridiculous(only some of you thank goodness)
For now I know what official trinitarian belief requires unto salvation, but the ministers don't preach it(or hardly any would). Now whereas if you could take the blinkers of you would have to condemn them for that with your beliefs, I don't
For they have the Spiritual maturity, as do most on this website, not to make this an issue. They know the Holy Spirit will convict a person at conversion as to seeing Christ as God requires. It ain't all about your titles. And so the ministers do not make it an issue, and I for one congratulate them, wheras if you were true to your convictions you would have to say they were unfit to preach from the pulpit

I do not understand what is wrong wioth a few of you people on here
Well I do actually you have made a god out of doctrine that is not required according to SCRIPTURE unto salvation
 
Jan 11, 2013
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Oh, no, John only makes this the central point of His gospel by referring to Christ as God twice in the opening chapter (John 1.1, 1.18), and then goes on to record the confession of doubting Thomas as Christ as, "My Lord and My God!" This same John only speaks of Christ as the uncreated One (John 1.3, “All things were made through Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made”), the One whom the prophet Isaiah saw in a vision sitting upon the throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple (John 12.41 [c.f. Isaiah 6.1-9]). He is confessed to be the direct object of prayer (John 14.14, "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it"), and is referred to in ways only suite for the Divine, saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End (Rev 1.17, 2.8, 3.14, 22.13).”

The apostle Paul warns the church in Corinth that Christ should not be put to the test through way of reminder of what happened to the Israelites when they likewise tested Him (1 Cor. 10.9 [c.f. Psalm 78.18, Numbers 21.5-6]). This Christ that Paul warns of is One who had pre-existed with the Father whom He was equal to (Philippians 2.4-6), possessing all the fullness which makes God, God (Colossians 2.9). He is given doxologies, praise, and thanksgiving (2 Tim. 4:18), both, as God (Titus 2.13, Romans 9.5), and YHWH (Romans 10.13 [c.f. Acts 2.16-21, Joel 2.32]).

Peter addresses his audience, professing ever so clearly that Christ is both, “our God and Savior” (2 Peter 1.1), the One whom Isaiah speaks of when he says, “But do not fear what it fears, or be in dread; honor the LORD Himself as holy” (Isaiah 8.12-13 LXX [c.f. 1 Peter 3.14-15]).

This is the One whom the author of Hebrews denies is an angel (Hebrews 1), but confesses what both, John and Paul have already confessed: All things were created “in,” and “through” Him (Hebrews 1.2 [c.f. John 1.3, Colossians 1.16]), He is ontologically equal to the Father (Hebrews 1.3 [c.f. John 1.1c, Colossians 2.9]), and pre-existed as nothing less than YHWH (Hebrews 1.10 [c.f. John 12.41, Romans 10.13]).

These men, these Apostles frequently use the “Spirit of Christ,” and “Holy Spirit”/”Spirit of God” interchangeably of one another (Acts 16.1-8; Romans 8.9-10 [c.f. Phil. 1.19; Gal. 4.6; 1 Peter 1.10-11]), invariably teaching the complete, and total Deity of Christ.

And in John’s apocalyptic literature, remarkably, he describes the worship due to Christ in a parallel fashion that is due to God (Revelation 4.8-11 [c.f. Revelation 5.8-14]):

"And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within ; and day and night they do not cease to say, "holy , holy, holy is the Lord God , the Almighty, who was and who is and is to come." And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, "Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created." (Revelation 4.8-11)

"And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!" The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped." (Revelation 5:8-14)

But that's all just coincidence, right?
I'm not interested in any of that, for none of it says a person must believe Christ is the Son of God AND God Himself unto salvation. You have your theological extrapolations, I have the plain scripture.

It is you who refuse to accept the requirement of belief unto salvation that Christ himself laid down by adding to it, therefore on this issue it is iompossible for you to be being led of the Holy Spirit

Too much studying, led of the academic mind is the only thing that could have caused you to do that
 
C

cfultz3

Guest

Oh, no, John only makes this the central point of His gospel by referring to Christ as God twice in the opening chapter (John 1.1, 1.18), and then goes on to record the confession of doubting Thomas as Christ as, "My Lord and My God!" This same John only speaks of Christ as the uncreated One (John 1.3, “All things were made through Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made”), the One whom the prophet Isaiah saw in a vision sitting upon the throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple (John 12.41 [c.f. Isaiah 6.1-9]). He is confessed to be the direct object of prayer (John 14.14, "If you ask Me anything in My name, I will do it"), and is referred to in ways only suite for the Divine, saying, “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End (Rev 1.17, 2.8, 3.14, 22.13).”

The apostle Paul warns the church in Corinth that Christ should not be put to the test through way of reminder of what happened to the Israelites when they likewise tested Him (1 Cor. 10.9 [c.f. Psalm 78.18, Numbers 21.5-6]). This Christ that Paul warns of is One who had pre-existed with the Father whom He was equal to (Philippians 2.4-6), possessing all the fullness which makes God, God (Colossians 2.9). He is given doxologies, praise, and thanksgiving (2 Tim. 4:18), both, as God (Titus 2.13, Romans 9.5), and YHWH (Romans 10.13 [c.f. Acts 2.16-21, Joel 2.32]).

Peter addresses his audience, professing ever so clearly that Christ is both, “our God and Savior” (2 Peter 1.1), the One whom Isaiah speaks of when he says, “But do not fear what it fears, or be in dread; honor the LORD Himself as holy” (Isaiah 8.12-13 LXX [c.f. 1 Peter 3.14-15]).

This is the One whom the author of Hebrews denies is an angel (Hebrews 1), but confesses what both, John and Paul have already confessed: All things were created “in,” and “through” Him (Hebrews 1.2 [c.f. John 1.3, Colossians 1.16]), He is ontologically equal to the Father (Hebrews 1.3 [c.f. John 1.1c, Colossians 2.9]), and pre-existed as nothing less than YHWH (Hebrews 1.10 [c.f. John 12.41, Romans 10.13]).

These men, these Apostles frequently use the “Spirit of Christ,” and “Holy Spirit”/”Spirit of God” interchangeably of one another (Acts 16.1-8; Romans 8.9-10 [c.f. Phil. 1.19; Gal. 4.6; 1 Peter 1.10-11]), invariably teaching the complete, and total Deity of Christ.

And in John’s apocalyptic literature, remarkably, he describes the worship due to Christ in a parallel fashion that is due to God (Revelation 4.8-11 [c.f. Revelation 5.8-14]):

"And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within ; and day and night they do not cease to say, "holy , holy, holy is the Lord God , the Almighty, who was and who is and is to come." And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying, "Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created." (Revelation 4.8-11)

"And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. And they sang a new song: "You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth." Then I looked and heard the voice of many angels, numbering thousands upon thousands, and ten thousand times ten thousand. They encircled the throne and the living creatures and the elders. In a loud voice they sang: "Worthy is the Lamb, who was slain, to receive power and wealth and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and praise!" Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing: "To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!" The four living creatures said, "Amen," and the elders fell down and worshiped." (Revelation 5:8-14)

But that's all just coincidence, right?
Bless you G-BUY :)
 
G

GraceBeUntoYou

Guest
Well firstly I doubt the demons are trusting in the shed blood of christ to inherit eternal life
I absolutely agree it is about knowing Christ and fellowshipping with him in an intimate way

The problem is though I have the plain scripture as to what is required belief to inehrit eternal life, you have none.

And so, neither Christ, Paul, Peter, James, or John commanded anyone to believe Christ was the one true God Himself unto salvation, neither do nearly all of the Trinitarian ministers from their pulpits, neither would at least 90%(proabably far higher than that) of people who go to Trinitarian churches
But people who are well read of scholars and theologians on the internet do demand it

So a plain fact, either a small handful of you on websites like these are right, in which case nearly all of the Trinitarian mnisters should be slung out of the pulpit, or you are wrong
And lets add to that, if you are right, Peter, Paul, James and John, either woefully failed their readers, or they did not have the spiritual insight you and a few others do have on websites like these
It is no longer about the "plain scripture," and it never was. What is really going on here is that you believe your interpretation is Divinely inspired, kind of the like the Monarchians of the 2nd and 3rd century. And if you don't agree with what's being said, then oh the cry of, "I want plain scripture!" And yet the Scripture being presented can be the plainest of all.
 
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It is no longer about the "plain scripture," and it never was. What is really going on here is that you believe your interpretation is Divinely inspired, kind of the like the Monarchians of the 2nd and 3rd century. And if you don't agree with what's being said, then oh the cry of, "I want plain scripture!" And yet the Scripture being presented can be the plainest of all.
Well of course it can't be about plain scripture to you because you haven't got any that states your belief unto salvation
But I guess that's handy because that means your vast studying and extrapolations of scripture you revel in can come into play

In other words you will ignore and usurp the plain scripture in order to accept the reasoning of the fallible human/acadcemic mind. And because you have no plain scripture to suport your extra biblical demands for salvation, I guess its time to attack me personally
 
G

GraceBeUntoYou

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Well of course it can't be about plain scripture to you because you haven't got any that states your belief unto salvation
But I guess that's handy because that means your vast studying and extrapolations of scripture you revel in can come into play

In other words you will ignore and usurp the plain scripture in order to accept the reasoning of the fallible human/acadcemic mind. And because you have no plain scripture to suport your extra biblical demands for salvation, I guess its time to attack me personally
Don't you just love it? You attack someone's idea, and they take it so personally, "they're attacking me!"

Extrapolations? Oh, that's right, just like those extrapolations you set forth when you say, "And lets add to that, if you are right, Peter, Paul, James and John, either woefully failed their readers, or they did not have the spiritual insight you and a few others do have on websites like these."

What makes Scripture, "plain"? Do you have some kind of standard which measures the "plainness" of Scripture? If I cite 1 John 5.20 as a text in support of my view, it would be ideal for you to discuss why it does not support my view, not some deaf cry of "plain Scripture!" You can look at 2 Peter 1.1, for example, and conclude that two persons are being spoken of, but then I could come to 2 Peter 1.1 and conclude that there is only one referent. How do you determine what is "plain"?


I think it would be best practice to observe the authors style, and grammar, and yet if we dare go into any of that, it's just "theological extrapolations."
 
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Don't you just love it? You attack someone's idea, and they take it so personally, "they're attacking me!"

Extrapolations? Oh, that's right, just like those extrapolations you set forth when you say, "And lets add to that, if you are right, Peter, Paul, James and John, either woefully failed their readers, or they did not have the spiritual insight you and a few others do have on websites like these."

What makes Scripture, "plain"? Do you have some kind of standard which measures the "plainness" of Scripture? If I cite 1 John 5.20 as a text in support of my view, it would be ideal for you to discuss why it does not support my view, not some deaf cry of "plain Scripture!" You can look at 2 Peter 1.1, for example, and conclude that two persons are being spoken of, but then I could come to 2 Peter 1.1 and conclude that there is only one referent. How do you determine what is "plain"?
I know this puts you in an impossible position, but I have given you three plain and clear verse of scripture as to the belief eternal life hinges on as to who Christ is unto salvation
So far you have given me NONE.
I have given you no extrapolations of scripture to support what I believe, just the plain text, that's it.

As for Peter, James, John and Paul, as you brought it up

Please tell me why you believe they did not clearly and plainly state in their letters what to you is the core of the Christian faith and eternal life hinges on believing. As far as I can see there can only be two possible reasons. Either they were not blessed with the spiirtual insight and knowledge a few of you are on websites like these and elsewhere, or, they woefully failed their readers by not plainly telling them that on which eternal life hinged
Christ, Paul and John can actually be quoted as plainly contradicting what you stress eternal life hinges on believing.

And can you tell me by what authority you refuse to accept the requiremnt of belief unto salvation that Christ himself laid down as to who a person must believe him to be to inherit eternal life by adding to it