Breaking News! Man of Lawlessness revealed?

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I think it's pride that's making me go back and forth with someone I know is dug into their trench.
I know from experience, if enough truth is presented, that's usually enough to convince someone who is open to being convinced.
I know enough truth has been presented, so any more back and forth is just me being prideful.

*sigh*

The word of God can cure my cc forum-itis.
 
1still_waters said:
It was the temple priest system that was holding him back before the rebellion.
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there are also two more reasons why this doesn't work...ananias was actually a -retired- high priest when menahem's followers murdered him...he had influence...but the high priestly authority belonged to someone else...

and secondly...ananias was not even the first high priest murdered by menahem's people...the sitting high priest jonathan had been assassinated by the sicarii in AD 56...
 
zone said:
okay....so you have the man of lawlessness being apostate christians - plural?

the son of perdition?

or is it going to be one bad guy?
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well more like an apostate christian leader...maybe the leader of the second beast apostate church...

it could be one person or it could be multiple people operating in a succession...paul does say that the mystery of lawlessness has been at work for a long time...i think an example of that would be diotrephes who is mentioned as a power hungry church leader in third john...
 
RachelBibleStudent said:
there are also two more reasons why this doesn't work...ananias was actually a -retired- high priest when menahem's followers murdered him...he had influence...but the high priestly authority belonged to someone else...

and secondly...ananias was not even the first high priest murdered by menahem's people...the sitting high priest jonathan had been assassinated by the sicarii in AD 56...
Click to expand...

None of this equates to Menahem not being held back.

It's just a recital of some nifty historical facts.
 
1still_waters said:
Actually once the standards were against the temple, it was too late. The standards went up in AD70.
It's not a warning if the city had already been invaded and fallen.

Menahem and the armies entering the land are the warning. They actually go hand in hand.
Look at how they work out in Luke and Matthew.

Luke 21
[SUP]20 [/SUP]“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.[SUP]21 [/SUP]Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.

Matt 24
[SUP]15 [/SUP]“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[SUP][c][/SUP] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), [SUP]16 [/SUP]“then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Your Roman standards happened AFTER it was surrounded. And actually once they were in it.

The surrounding of Jerusalem, and the abomination (Menaham) were the perfect warning to flee.

Menahem and the surrounding were the siren warning.
The standards were the tornado.

Saying the standards on the temple were the warning, is like saying your house that just got destroyed by the tornado is the warning that a tornado is on the way!

No the sirens that went off before the tornado arrived are the warning!
The sirens in this case are the approaching armies and Menahem and the Jewish rebellion in Jerusalem.
The standards are the tornado.
Click to expand...

the abomination of desolation was not a warning to jerusalem...it was a warning to judea...

the siege of jerusalem...and the setting up of the imperial standards after jerusalem fell...was a warning to those in judea that they would be next...lucilius bassus was assigned to 'clean up' the rest of the rebels from the judean countryside...

to use your tornado analogy...the farmhouse down the street just got demolished by a tornado...you might want to go into your storm cellar if you haven't already...
 
RachelBibleStudent said:
the abomination of desolation was not a warning to jerusalem...it was a warning to judea...

the siege of jerusalem...and the setting up of the imperial standards after jerusalem fell...was a warning to those in judea that they would be next...lucilius bassus was assigned to 'clean up' the rest of the rebels from the judean countryside...

to use your tornado analogy...the farmhouse down the street just got demolished by a tornado...you might want to go into your storm cellar if you haven't already...
Click to expand...
Jerusalem is in Judea.
It was a warning to those in Jerusalem, seeing Jerusalem is in Judea.
The two aren't mutually exclusive.
 
zone said:
sorry, i'm learning about menahem as i go here...

"menahem's sicarii"

this is the same cult Judas came from.

they are both called the son of perdition.
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actually judas iscariot more likely was -not- a member of the sicarii...i used to think he was but i changed my mind...

the sicarii probably did not actually exist in jesus' time...there is no evidence of their presence until a decade or two later... furthermore judas' -father- was also called iscariot...and it is even less likely that the sicarii were around in the generation -before- jesus...

iscariot is probably just a greek transliteration of the hebrew 'ish kerioth' or 'man of kerioth'...kerioth was a small judean city...
 
1still_waters said:
THIS GENERATION. Matthew 24:34

It's not an assumption.
It's fact.

You're going more on assumption.

I'm going off of the repeated claims of a coming judgement on that generation.
Matthew 12:45
Matthew 23:36
Matthew 24:34
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the greek word for 'generation' can also mean 'race' or 'age'...'this age' would make particularly good sense considering jesus was asked about the 'end of the age'
 
1still_waters said:
Like I said earlier.

Folks who see it will see it.
Keep digging.
It's fun outside of the historicist trench. :P

I don't know why I'm going back and forth with someone who is dug into their trench.
Actually I do know why and I need to stop!
Click to expand...

i'm not entrenched.
come on still.....i've done homework for others before.

cough up.
 
Zone said..

did josephus say anything about lying signs or whatever?
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I'd think a guy who convinced an entire group they could overcome the Roman armies is guilty of a lying sign and wonder.

Also, I think you'd consider the wall of Jericho coming down a HUGE sign or wonder right?
Guess what Menahem did?
He gave the illusion of victory by coyly taking down a wall!
A lying sign to a people who had a history of a mighty sign from God that involved a collapsing wall.

In the mean time, one Manahem, the son of Judas, that was called the Galilean, (who was a very cunning sophister, and had formerly reproached the Jews under Cyrenius, that after God they were subject to the Romans,) took some of the men of note with him, and retired to Masada, where he broke open king Herod’s armory, and gave arms not only to his own people, but to other robbers also. These he made use of for a guard, and returned in the state of a king to Jerusalem; he became the leader of the sedition, and gave orders for continuing the siege; but they wanted proper instruments, and it was not practicable to undermine the wall, because the darts came down upon them from above. But still they dug a mine from a great distance under one of the towers, and made it totter; and having done that, they set on fire what was combustible, and left it; and when the foundations were burnt below, the tower fell down suddenly.
Click to expand...
 
1still_waters said:
Not really.
If one thinks their actions are going to be held accountable to God, they tend to act umm..untyrant like.
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unless they think they are actually guided by God...ruling on God's behalf...as menahem would have believed...
 
RachelBibleStudent said:
actually judas iscariot more likely was -not- a member of the sicarii...i used to think he was but i changed my mind...

the sicarii probably did not actually exist in jesus' time...there is no evidence of their presence until a decade or two later... furthermore judas' -father- was also called iscariot...and it is even less likely that the sicarii were around in the generation -before- jesus...

iscariot is probably just a greek transliteration of the hebrew 'ish kerioth' or 'man of kerioth'...kerioth was a small judean city...
Click to expand...

hmm...i gotta look into it.

Judas Iscariot, (died c. ad 30), one of the Twelve Apostles, notorious for betraying Jesus. Judas’ surname is more probably a corruption of the Latin sicarius (“murderer” or “assassin”) than an indication of family origin, suggesting that he would have belonged to the Sicarii, the most radical Jewish group, some of whom were terrorists. Other than his apostleship, his betrayal, and his death, little else is revealed about Judas in the Gospels. Always the last on the list of the Apostles, he was their treasurer. John 12:6 introduces Judas’ thievery by saying, “. . . as he had the money box he used to take what was put into it.

judas was called the son of destruction from the very beginning.
a devil.
not just a thief.

i'll look into it again.
i had notes years ago.
 
RachelBibleStudent said:
unless they think they are actually guided by God...ruling on God's behalf...as menahem would have believed...
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sounds like he was a psychopath...they don't usually really believe in God...they think they are God.
if he really believed in God i doubt he would have done what he did.
 
1still_waters said:
I know enough truth has been presented, so any more back and forth is just me being prideful.
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i wouldn't say much truth has been presented at all...just a tenuously remote similarity being blown out of proportion to invent a new doctrine...
 
1still_waters said:
Zone said..



I'd think a guy who convinced an entire group they could overcome the Roman armies is guilty of a lying sign and wonder.

Also, I think you'd consider the wall of Jericho coming down a HUGE sign or wonder right?
Guess what Menahem did?
He gave the illusion of victory by coyly taking down a wall!
A lying sign to a people who had a history of a mighty sign from God that involved a collapsing wall.
Click to expand...

particularly if God had sent them strong delusion in order that they believe it.
hmmm....

so this candidate helped untold numbers continue believing Jesus was not the deliverer.
after so short a time since He had been there.

mkay.
i can dig it.
 
1still_waters said:
None of this equates to Menahem not being held back.

It's just a recital of some nifty historical facts.
Click to expand...

it shows the logical inconsistency to the claim that menahem was the man of lawlessness held back by the temple priesthood...

menahem's sicarii did away with one sitting high priest already...yet he was still being held back by the priesthood?
and then his sicarii assassinate a -retired- high priest...and suddenly the priesthood is now out of the way?
 
1still_waters said:
Jerusalem is in Judea.
It was a warning to those in Jerusalem, seeing Jerusalem is in Judea.
The two aren't mutually exclusive.
Click to expand...

if jesus especially meant jerusalem...he would have just said jerusalem...

he said judea...which was next in line to be purged of rebels after jerusalem fell...
 
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