Is infant baptism biblical?
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while i agree with you that all believers are to be witnesses to the Gospel of Jesus Christ Crucified, and they all are empowered to overcome sin and to be sanctified and conformed in the image of the Son....i do not belive any christian today receives the Power from on High the Disciples received at Pentecost. they have received the gift of the Holy Spirit.
but it doesn't say we are Baptized in the Spirit.
we are baptized BY The Spirit into Christ - His death, and raised to His life....in baptism...in water. for remission of sins.
that's what i currently believe.
i am a cessationist (Pentecostal gifts) and always have been.
none of us performs miracles (though some of us claim to), our names are not on the 12 foundations (though we have people who think they are Apostles today, with the authority Peter and Paul - receiving new revelation etc).
Christ was the Cornerstone...the Apostles built the foundation along with Him, and we are being built stone by living stone on top of that. into an house.
they received Power from on High to lay the Foundation laid once for all.
and no other foundation may be laid than that.
unless we are moving Jesus around and overthrowing Him as the Cornerstone laid once for all in Zion:
Hebrews 12:22
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly
but i know you're not saying that, and i do respect your position.
i just disagree.
zone
but it doesn't say we are Baptized in the Spirit.
we are baptized BY The Spirit into Christ - His death, and raised to His life....in baptism...in water. for remission of sins.
that's what i currently believe.
i am a cessationist (Pentecostal gifts) and always have been.
none of us performs miracles (though some of us claim to), our names are not on the 12 foundations (though we have people who think they are Apostles today, with the authority Peter and Paul - receiving new revelation etc).
Christ was the Cornerstone...the Apostles built the foundation along with Him, and we are being built stone by living stone on top of that. into an house.
they received Power from on High to lay the Foundation laid once for all.
and no other foundation may be laid than that.
unless we are moving Jesus around and overthrowing Him as the Cornerstone laid once for all in Zion:
Hebrews 12:22
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly
but i know you're not saying that, and i do respect your position.
i just disagree.
zone
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Okay.
I had to look up what a "cessationist" was. . . .there are a lot of terms used on these sites that I have never heard of.
Yes, Jesus Christ is the foundation, the chief cornerstone. He was baptized with holy spirit. The apostles also taught upon that foundation. . .they also being baptized with holy spirit, the power from on high. That foundation laid, we build upon it and I believe that every thing that was available to the early church is still available to the church today.
I had to look up what a "cessationist" was. . . .there are a lot of terms used on these sites that I have never heard of.
Yes, Jesus Christ is the foundation, the chief cornerstone. He was baptized with holy spirit. The apostles also taught upon that foundation. . .they also being baptized with holy spirit, the power from on high. That foundation laid, we build upon it and I believe that every thing that was available to the early church is still available to the church today.
Yes infants are born innocent, and remain that way until they reach the point of accountability. At that point it is their decision to be baptized and have it 'count'.
But being born innocent they are justified with God, and therefore don't need it? Isn't it that accountability that makes the Baptism necessary?
I can see it as an affirmation of the innocent's place with God, and a parent's vow to raise the infant in a Christian way, but I'm not sure that's not more of our doing to make us feel good.
But being born innocent they are justified with God, and therefore don't need it? Isn't it that accountability that makes the Baptism necessary?
I can see it as an affirmation of the innocent's place with God, and a parent's vow to raise the infant in a Christian way, but I'm not sure that's not more of our doing to make us feel good.
hi peaceful.
have you seen Jesus?
are you receiving revelation, which is doctrine for the Christian faith delivered once for all to the saints?
why isn't it in my Bible?
and you don't know anyone who is doing this, nor is authorized to do this:
Acts 13
Barnabas and Saul on Cyprus
4So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus. 5When they arrived at Salamis, they proclaimed the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews. And they had John to assist them. 6When they had gone through the whole island as far as Paphos, they came upon a certain magician, a Jewish false prophet named Bar-Jesus. 7He was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, a man of intelligence, who summoned Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God. 8But Elymas the magician (for that is the meaning of his name) opposed them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith. 9But Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him 10and said, “You son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, full of all deceit and villainy, will you not stop making crooked the straight paths of the Lord? 11And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you will be blind and unable to see the sun for a time.” Immediately mist and darkness fell upon him, and he went about seeking people to lead him by the hand. 12Then the proconsul believed, when he saw what had occurred, for he was astonished at the teaching of the Lord.
why were they given such power and authority?
Then the proconsul believed, when he saw what had occurred, for he was astonished at the teaching of the Lord
if we had anyone authorized to being laying the foundation today, we would be reading about their Acts in the scriptures.
we don't, because those powers ceased. just as they were intended to.
i know we have people claiming to be Apostles and claiming to work miracles and shows signs as they did.
and? let's see it then.....oh. it's always in MaiuMaiu or someplace.
now, we have this:
2 Timothy 3
All Scripture Is Breathed Out by God
10You, however, have followed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness, 11my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystra—which persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me. 12Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whoma you learned it 15and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of Godb may be competent, equipped for every good work.
have you seen Jesus?
are you receiving revelation, which is doctrine for the Christian faith delivered once for all to the saints?
why isn't it in my Bible?
and you don't know anyone who is doing this, nor is authorized to do this:
Acts 13
Barnabas and Saul on Cyprus
4So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus. 5When they arrived at Salamis, they proclaimed the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews. And they had John to assist them. 6When they had gone through the whole island as far as Paphos, they came upon a certain magician, a Jewish false prophet named Bar-Jesus. 7He was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, a man of intelligence, who summoned Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God. 8But Elymas the magician (for that is the meaning of his name) opposed them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith. 9But Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him 10and said, “You son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, full of all deceit and villainy, will you not stop making crooked the straight paths of the Lord? 11And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you will be blind and unable to see the sun for a time.” Immediately mist and darkness fell upon him, and he went about seeking people to lead him by the hand. 12Then the proconsul believed, when he saw what had occurred, for he was astonished at the teaching of the Lord.
why were they given such power and authority?
Then the proconsul believed, when he saw what had occurred, for he was astonished at the teaching of the Lord
if we had anyone authorized to being laying the foundation today, we would be reading about their Acts in the scriptures.
we don't, because those powers ceased. just as they were intended to.
i know we have people claiming to be Apostles and claiming to work miracles and shows signs as they did.
and?
let's see it then.....oh. it's always in MaiuMaiu or someplace.now, we have this:
2 Timothy 3
All Scripture Is Breathed Out by God
10You, however, have followed my teaching, my conduct, my aim in life, my faith, my patience, my love, my steadfastness, 11my persecutions and sufferings that happened to me at Antioch, at Iconium, and at Lystra—which persecutions I endured; yet from them all the Lord rescued me. 12Indeed, all who desire to live a godly life in Christ Jesus will be persecuted, 13while evil people and impostors will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and being deceived. 14But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, knowing from whoma you learned it 15and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17that the man of Godb may be competent, equipped for every good work.
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Does Circumcision in OT = Baptism of the Holy Spirit? There is only one baptism. Baptism of the HS only happens upon repentance, belief and faith in the Work of Christ. Where as Water baptism is just a symbol and declaration, an outward witness of the one baptism of the Spirit. Did not God look at the circumcision of the heart in both Covenants? Therefore I think circumcision and water baptism is a sign or an outward expression, which can improperly used by spurious believer.
Just because many OT Jew where Circumcised doesn't mean that they where saved. Which is to say just because Jews were Jews in Israel doesn't mean they were saved. Just because some goes to a church doesn't make them saved. Read about the wicked sons of Eli in 1 Samuel 2, where they circumcised? I bet they were being priests and sons of Eli, but their hearts where far from God.
Just because many OT Jew where Circumcised doesn't mean that they where saved. Which is to say just because Jews were Jews in Israel doesn't mean they were saved. Just because some goes to a church doesn't make them saved. Read about the wicked sons of Eli in 1 Samuel 2, where they circumcised? I bet they were being priests and sons of Eli, but their hearts where far from God.
D
Jewish immersion is usually done in a Mikveh, which means a pool where water has gathered. A Mikveh is an essential in any Synagogue and they were also part of the temple.
Immersion is not for physical cleaning; that would be done beforehand. It is for Spiritual cleansing in a purification ceremony.
The terms Purity and Impurity are inadequate translations from the Hebrew and give a physical rather than spiritual sound to the process.
Immersion is conducted for various occasions.
Women after childbirth or menstruation
A bride before her wedding
Priests (in the Temple) before divine service
Men on the eve of Yom Kippur (also optionally, before Shabbat)
For converts to Judaism
In preparation of a dead person for burial
For new kitchen utensils
Yochanon the "immerser" was Jewish (John the baptist)...he was from a Jewish sect, and water immersion was very common in temple times. Jesus was most likely "immersed" to start "divine service"....It would also be used for converts to JUDAISM...which later became used in Christianity. Infants were never immersed because they were NEVER ritually unclean. Dedication by sprinkling is not a Jewish custom...but why not...if you're christian and want to use it as a sign of dedication. How many sects are there of Christianity? Probably they would be cut in half if the Jewish roots of NT teaching was investigated a little more thoroughly.
Yochanon the "immerser" was Jewish (John the baptist)...he was from a Jewish sect, and water immersion was very common in temple times. Jesus was most likely "immersed" to start "divine service"....It would also be used for converts to JUDAISM...which later became used in Christianity. Infants were never immersed because they were NEVER ritually unclean. Dedication by sprinkling is not a Jewish custom...but why not...if you're christian and want to use it as a sign of dedication. How many sects are there of Christianity? Probably they would be cut in half if the Jewish roots of NT teaching was investigated a little more thoroughly.
i actually don't necessarily disagree, bookends.
the idea i was considering about water baptism, since we (or at least i have) decided the scriptures say it is commanded - is if it is a New Covenant ordinance (or sacrament, if you will).
and if so, ought we to consider our little children as members of the Covenant household of God?
the scriptures seem to say yes.
what would be the objection to it?
people can decide based on their own theology whether or not someone can fall away from the faith...as a 10 year old or a 50 year old.
unless we believe in actual baptismal regeneration, why would we not baptize our children?
this is the question i'm wondering about.
if profession of faith is actually what matters, and not the baptism (if The Lord doesn't work through the baptism by water to baptize us into Christ's death), then why would it matter whether we baptize our children or not?
prolly not making myself clear, but see what i'm wondering?
the idea i was considering about water baptism, since we (or at least i have) decided the scriptures say it is commanded - is if it is a New Covenant ordinance (or sacrament, if you will).
and if so, ought we to consider our little children as members of the Covenant household of God?
the scriptures seem to say yes.
what would be the objection to it?
people can decide based on their own theology whether or not someone can fall away from the faith...as a 10 year old or a 50 year old.
unless we believe in actual baptismal regeneration, why would we not baptize our children?
this is the question i'm wondering about.
if profession of faith is actually what matters, and not the baptism (if The Lord doesn't work through the baptism by water to baptize us into Christ's death), then why would it matter whether we baptize our children or not?
prolly not making myself clear, but see what i'm wondering?
hi peaceful.
have you seen Jesus?
are you receiving revelation, which is doctrine for the Christian faith delivered once for all to the saints?
why isn't it in my Bible?
have you seen Jesus?
are you receiving revelation, which is doctrine for the Christian faith delivered once for all to the saints?
why isn't it in my Bible?
and you don't know anyone who is doing this, nor is authorized to do this:
Acts 13
Barnabas and Saul on Cyprus
4So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus. 5When they arrived at Salamis, they proclaimed the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews. And they had John to assist them. 6When they had gone through the whole island as far as Paphos, they came upon a certain magician, a Jewish false prophet named Bar-Jesus. 7He was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, a man of intelligence, who summoned Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God. 8But Elymas the magician (for that is the meaning of his name) opposed them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith. 9But Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him 10and said, “You son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, full of all deceit and villainy, will you not stop making crooked the straight paths of the Lord? 11And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you will be blind and unable to see the sun for a time.” Immediately mist and darkness fell upon him, and he went about seeking people to lead him by the hand. 12Then the proconsul believed, when he saw what had occurred, for he was astonished at the teaching of the Lord.
why were they given such power and authority?
Then the proconsul believed, when he saw what had occurred, for he was astonished at the teaching of the Lord
if we had anyone authorized to being laying the foundation today, we would be reading about their Acts in the scriptures.
we don't, because those powers ceased. just as they were intended to.
i know we have people claiming to be Apostles and claiming to work miracles and shows signs as they did.
and? let's see it then.....oh. it's always in MaiuMaiu or someplace.
Acts 13
Barnabas and Saul on Cyprus
4So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus. 5When they arrived at Salamis, they proclaimed the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews. And they had John to assist them. 6When they had gone through the whole island as far as Paphos, they came upon a certain magician, a Jewish false prophet named Bar-Jesus. 7He was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, a man of intelligence, who summoned Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God. 8But Elymas the magician (for that is the meaning of his name) opposed them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith. 9But Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him 10and said, “You son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, full of all deceit and villainy, will you not stop making crooked the straight paths of the Lord? 11And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you will be blind and unable to see the sun for a time.” Immediately mist and darkness fell upon him, and he went about seeking people to lead him by the hand. 12Then the proconsul believed, when he saw what had occurred, for he was astonished at the teaching of the Lord.
why were they given such power and authority?
Then the proconsul believed, when he saw what had occurred, for he was astonished at the teaching of the Lord
if we had anyone authorized to being laying the foundation today, we would be reading about their Acts in the scriptures.
we don't, because those powers ceased. just as they were intended to.
i know we have people claiming to be Apostles and claiming to work miracles and shows signs as they did.
and?
let's see it then.....oh. it's always in MaiuMaiu or someplace.
I can't say why these things do not happen as much today as in the book of Acts. I could blame it on no one having enough faith. . . but I can't because I know of people that have tremendous faith. I just believe that any thing given to us in the church epistles are FOR us as the body of Christ, the church.
Yes, I believe that the scriptures are God-breathed and are for doctrine reproof and correction so that we may be fully equipped. . .does that negate other scripture. . .no. I do not believe that there is any new revelation to be given. .but I do believe that people can operate the manifestations of the Spirit for exhortation and edification of the household of believers. If 2 Timothy 3:16,17 is true then things written throughout the church epistles are true; as well as revelation that has been given and fulfilled.
There is no offense meant and no offense taken. . . .
Yes He has,He has promised to provide for our needs,He never promised us that He would provide for our wants. Just because one may want a pony does not mean He will give us one.
God said no to Paul's request that the thorn be removed,it never was. God's answer was that His grace was sufficient for him.
God said no to Paul's request that the thorn be removed,it never was. God's answer was that His grace was sufficient for him.
I
Here's what I was taught when I was involved in a non-denom church...made sense to me then & still does.
Baptism is a conscious choice. As a baby(child) you don't understand a relationship with Christ..you don't understand the blood,the sacrifice,the new priesthood...so how can getting baptised as an infant secure your salvation & entry into heaven?
I remember at our church we would have what they called a "dedication ceremony" which would consist of what what was basically a Catholic baptism,but the parents were basically committing themselves to raising the child in a Godly influence,then when the kid was of a proper thinking age & understood baptism,then the kid would make that choice & be properly dunked. So after all my rambling...my point is that I don't believe just 'cause you get splashed with some water when yer' a baby that is the be all end all & yer' off to heaven. I do believe however that when a child dies that sin't of a proper age to comprehend salvation or Jesus,I think they go straight to the Father. But that's another can of worms. LOL
Baptism is a conscious choice. As a baby(child) you don't understand a relationship with Christ..you don't understand the blood,the sacrifice,the new priesthood...so how can getting baptised as an infant secure your salvation & entry into heaven?
I remember at our church we would have what they called a "dedication ceremony" which would consist of what what was basically a Catholic baptism,but the parents were basically committing themselves to raising the child in a Godly influence,then when the kid was of a proper thinking age & understood baptism,then the kid would make that choice & be properly dunked. So after all my rambling...my point is that I don't believe just 'cause you get splashed with some water when yer' a baby that is the be all end all & yer' off to heaven. I do believe however that when a child dies that sin't of a proper age to comprehend salvation or Jesus,I think they go straight to the Father. But that's another can of worms. LOL
hi iTOREtheSKY.
i feel uncomfortable with 'dunking' and 'splashing with some water' and stuff.
it's sacred but that's okay.
as for the dedications in your church, my denom also baptizes infants.
but instead of baptizing them again when they can articulate their faith, they are catechized:
cat·e·chizedcat·e·chiz·ing
Definition of CATECHIZE
1
: to instruct systematically especially by questions, answers, and explanations and corrections; specifically : to give religious instruction in such a manner
2
: to question systematically or searchingly
...and they are then confirmed as adult members in good standing, able to go on in the faith they were raised in, and become servants and even teachers. and they will marry, and have their children baptized also. i think that's how it is supposed to work.
like your church, we also place our faith in the Lord that He receives our children should they perish.
the babies and kids until the time they are catechized are also believed to be members in good standing, as they are the children of the New Covenant faithful parents.
there's scriptural support for this, as some have posted in this thread (see 1Still_waters on 'households' etc).
so, we're not so far apart in our beliefs...but we do not re-baptize.
i feel uncomfortable with 'dunking' and 'splashing with some water' and stuff.
it's sacred
but that's okay.as for the dedications in your church, my denom also baptizes infants.
but instead of baptizing them again when they can articulate their faith, they are catechized:
cat·e·chizedcat·e·chiz·ing
Definition of CATECHIZE
1
: to instruct systematically especially by questions, answers, and explanations and corrections; specifically : to give religious instruction in such a manner
2
: to question systematically or searchingly
...and they are then confirmed as adult members in good standing, able to go on in the faith they were raised in, and become servants and even teachers
. and they will marry, and have their children baptized also. i think that's how it is supposed to work.like your church, we also place our faith in the Lord that He receives our children should they perish.
the babies and kids until the time they are catechized are also believed to be members in good standing, as they are the children of the New Covenant faithful parents.
there's scriptural support for this, as some have posted in this thread (see 1Still_waters on 'households' etc).
so, we're not so far apart in our beliefs...but we do not re-baptize.
I
I don't believe any "ritual" secures your entry into heaven ,save believing in the life-death & resurrection of Jesus. But I do think that as you gain mental capacity as you grow older your knowledge of God increases,thus you are more accountable for your salvation or lack there of. Does that make sense? lol
sure it makes sense.
but is baptism a just a ritual?
elsewhere it was suggested it was a tradition, even a hold-over nostalgic thing from the OT (or inter-testamental period) and actually should have been stopped....that kind of ritual?
or is it actually commanded as part of the Gospel?
that's i guess what i wanted to establish...is...did Jesus include it in His Great Commission.
if He did, why did He command it?
but is baptism a just a ritual?
elsewhere it was suggested it was a tradition, even a hold-over nostalgic thing from the OT (or inter-testamental period) and actually should have been stopped....that kind of ritual?
or is it actually commanded as part of the Gospel?
that's i guess what i wanted to establish...is...did Jesus include it in His Great Commission.
if He did, why did He command it?