What does "limited atonement" mean?
- Thread starter Elin
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E
and there-in is the issue. Israel was given so many eye openers, Even while christ was on earth, yet they did not have faith. why? because they trusted in their man-made laws and religion. and got away from the word of God.
What is wrong is to say God did not ALLOW them to see, so they would not be saved. A loving God does not do this.
Jesus meantioned this himself when he stated, it was HIS WILL to gather them as his children. But THEY WERE NOT WILLING.
What is wrong is to say God did not ALLOW them to see, so they would not be saved. A loving God does not do this.
Jesus meantioned this himself when he stated, it was HIS WILL to gather them as his children. But THEY WERE NOT WILLING.
You're handling things a little loosely.
Ro 7:7-8 is not dealing with free will.
I didn't say it was Elin. Simply that I don't believe we can quote Rom8:7&8 to support the notion that because we have limited free will we must at times sin, because those verses do not speak of a mind controlled by the Spirit, but one controlled by the flesh that cannot please God. But all Christians have the Holy Sprit in them who sanctifies them.
"Sinless life" does not equate to the Biblical meaning of "cease to sin."
I would agree
"Limited free will" does not equate to "no will to cease sin."
In and of ourselves we have nothing and can do nothing
,but the Holy Spirit lives in us. The truth is, it does not depend on how much WE strive against the flesh, but how close we in our hearts are prepared to come, how much of our lives from the heart we are prepared to yield to God, how much we truly love him. The more we love him, the more we will look away from ourselves and to His Son and trust him to do for us through the Spirit what we cannot do for ourselves. That is where the battle is won and continues to be one
You'll never sort it out without making correct distinctions.
I'm quite happy seeing it simply as according to my comments above. No need in my mind to 'sort it out' beyond that
It is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh Phil3:3
The above was the whole post Elin.
And as you quoted Christ in a different context than he was meaning, and as you referred to Rom 8:7&8 as reasons the Christian cannot fully obey, and therefore must sin, I think I'll pass on your links thanks.
I haven't thus far read anything new on this thread concerning the faith that is vital to understand for the Christian walk
Ro 7:7-8 is not dealing with free will.
I didn't say it was Elin. Simply that I don't believe we can quote Rom8:7&8 to support the notion that because we have limited free will we must at times sin, because those verses do not speak of a mind controlled by the Spirit, but one controlled by the flesh that cannot please God. But all Christians have the Holy Sprit in them who sanctifies them.
"Sinless life" does not equate to the Biblical meaning of "cease to sin."
I would agree
"Limited free will" does not equate to "no will to cease sin."
In and of ourselves we have nothing and can do nothing
,but the Holy Spirit lives in us. The truth is, it does not depend on how much WE strive against the flesh, but how close we in our hearts are prepared to come, how much of our lives from the heart we are prepared to yield to God, how much we truly love him. The more we love him, the more we will look away from ourselves and to His Son and trust him to do for us through the Spirit what we cannot do for ourselves. That is where the battle is won and continues to be one
You'll never sort it out without making correct distinctions.
I'm quite happy seeing it simply as according to my comments above. No need in my mind to 'sort it out' beyond that
It is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh Phil3:3
The above was the whole post Elin.
And as you quoted Christ in a different context than he was meaning, and as you referred to Rom 8:7&8 as reasons the Christian cannot fully obey, and therefore must sin, I think I'll pass on your links thanks.
I haven't thus far read anything new on this thread concerning the faith that is vital to understand for the Christian walk
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Probably just as well, since your understanding is so loose it qualifies for misunderstanding anyway, even in the above.
You also won't find anything new on the
rebirth vital to sonship, or
nature of righteousness vital to salvation, or
work of the Holy Spirit vital to obedience, or
repentance vital to transformation, or
baptism vital to admittance into God's people, or
etc., etc., etc.
As a matter of fact, I don't find the word
cross mentioned in Romans, or
resurrection mentioned in 2 Corinthians, or
blood mentioned in Philippians, or
death in Galatians, or
salvation in Colossians, or
etc., etc., etc.
Your point?
You also won't find anything new on the
rebirth vital to sonship, or
nature of righteousness vital to salvation, or
work of the Holy Spirit vital to obedience, or
repentance vital to transformation, or
baptism vital to admittance into God's people, or
etc., etc., etc.
As a matter of fact, I don't find the word
cross mentioned in Romans, or
resurrection mentioned in 2 Corinthians, or
blood mentioned in Philippians, or
death in Galatians, or
salvation in Colossians, or
etc., etc., etc.
Your point?
My point is, if there is nothing in your thread (that I recall) that can better enhance a persons walk with God, than what we alrerady know, then there isn't much point to me in continuing in it, sorry I did not make myself plainer. And as you are quoting a Christ out of context according to your point, it sems a bit of a muddle to me
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Knowledge of God should always be beneficial to a Christian.
"let him who boasts boast in this, that he understands and knows me." (Jer 9:24)**
And I suspect the muddle is not in the thread.
**Jer 9:23-24:
"Let not the wise man boast in his wisdom
or the strong man boast in his strength
or the rich man boast in his riches,
but let him who boasts boast in this:
that he understands and knows me,
that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness,
justice and righteousness on earth,
for in these I delight," declares the LORD.
"let him who boasts boast in this, that he understands and knows me." (Jer 9:24)**
And I suspect the muddle is not in the thread.
**Jer 9:23-24:
"Let not the wise man boast in his wisdom
or the strong man boast in his strength
or the rich man boast in his riches,
but let him who boasts boast in this:
that he understands and knows me,
that I am the LORD, who exercises kindness,
justice and righteousness on earth,
for in these I delight," declares the LORD.
Firstly you said my knowledge was loose, but have decided it seems not to tell me how you reason that Rom8:7&8 is proof that the Christians will to obey is liimted
The biblical reference of Christ that you quoted and Paul in Rom6 concerning slavery to sin, do not have the same context you have used the term to mean in the point you were making
Concerning your biblical quote
The Christian has absolutely nothing to boast of.
Their salvation is a gift from God
Their one and only righteousness in God's sight is faith in Christ
And any true Spiritual knowledge they have is because the Holy Spirit has revealed that knowledge to them
He is the one who sanctifies them
Let Him who boasts, boast in the Lord
1Cor1:31
The biblical reference of Christ that you quoted and Paul in Rom6 concerning slavery to sin, do not have the same context you have used the term to mean in the point you were making
Concerning your biblical quote
The Christian has absolutely nothing to boast of.
Their salvation is a gift from God
Their one and only righteousness in God's sight is faith in Christ
And any true Spiritual knowledge they have is because the Holy Spirit has revealed that knowledge to them
He is the one who sanctifies them
Let Him who boasts, boast in the Lord
1Cor1:31
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Why do you people talk about FREE WILL? There are only two WILLS on earth, and according to God you CAN ONLY obey one of the TWO!
There is the will of GOD that people should not sin! And then there is the will of SATAN that they should. And God says it VERY clearly.... YOU CANNOT SERVE BOTH WILLS.... Not may not CANNOT! God did not say you may not serve MAMMON and GOD, he said YOU CANNOT seve MAMMON AND GOD!
Now let uncle Cobus teach you something about GOD and HIS WILL!!!! Not even SATAN can stand up tp God's will. If God wills something not you, not me and not even SATAN can stand against God WILLING TO DO SOMETHING. Why did Satan not STOP God to send His Son? Why did Satan not stop God to RESURRECT His Son? Why did Satan not succeed in having Christ become sinner as well? SATAN cannot stand against God's will.
Now! let us get God's will on us and let me show you, IF GOD WANTS TO MAKE A PERSON SERVE HIM, THERE IS NO CHANCE THAT THAT PERSON, NOR SATAN, NOR ANY OTHER PERSON CAN STAND IN GOD'S WAY. HE (GOD) WILL DO WHAT HE WILLS!
There is two verse to consider here, and please see HOW GOD WILLS in these verses. Please NOTE how GOD WILLS here, not me not you not Satan... GOD!!!
Ezekiel 36:26 and 27...A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
In the light of GOD is GOD and if HE wills, what can appose Him, ALL I ASK IS...
God also will that for me PLEASE! AMEN!
There is the will of GOD that people should not sin! And then there is the will of SATAN that they should. And God says it VERY clearly.... YOU CANNOT SERVE BOTH WILLS.... Not may not CANNOT! God did not say you may not serve MAMMON and GOD, he said YOU CANNOT seve MAMMON AND GOD!
Now let uncle Cobus teach you something about GOD and HIS WILL!!!! Not even SATAN can stand up tp God's will. If God wills something not you, not me and not even SATAN can stand against God WILLING TO DO SOMETHING. Why did Satan not STOP God to send His Son? Why did Satan not stop God to RESURRECT His Son? Why did Satan not succeed in having Christ become sinner as well? SATAN cannot stand against God's will.
Now! let us get God's will on us and let me show you, IF GOD WANTS TO MAKE A PERSON SERVE HIM, THERE IS NO CHANCE THAT THAT PERSON, NOR SATAN, NOR ANY OTHER PERSON CAN STAND IN GOD'S WAY. HE (GOD) WILL DO WHAT HE WILLS!
There is two verse to consider here, and please see HOW GOD WILLS in these verses. Please NOTE how GOD WILLS here, not me not you not Satan... GOD!!!
Ezekiel 36:26 and 27...A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
In the light of GOD is GOD and if HE wills, what can appose Him, ALL I ASK IS...
God also will that for me PLEASE! AMEN!
PS I see you missed the point COMPLETELY... Show me ANY PERSON's OTHER that GODS will in these two verses! Do not state your opinion, SHOW me where there is a will OTHER than that of God!
Please also SHOW SCRIPTURE where God did put a NEW HEART and A NEW Spirit in Israel. If HE HAD they WOULD HAVE WALKED IN HIS STATUTES...
Do you SEE why Israel was not obedient to God? They NEVER received the NEW HEART and NEW SPIRIT from God. I ask what if they did? Would they still be ABLE to be disobedient, I VOTE NO!!!
I say, if God puts HIS HEART AND SPIRIT IN ANY PERSON, that person IS BORN OF GOD, AND A MAN OF GOD... PERFECT!
Please also SHOW SCRIPTURE where God did put a NEW HEART and A NEW Spirit in Israel. If HE HAD they WOULD HAVE WALKED IN HIS STATUTES...
Do you SEE why Israel was not obedient to God? They NEVER received the NEW HEART and NEW SPIRIT from God. I ask what if they did? Would they still be ABLE to be disobedient, I VOTE NO!!!
I say, if God puts HIS HEART AND SPIRIT IN ANY PERSON, that person IS BORN OF GOD, AND A MAN OF GOD... PERFECT!
So do I, but I think we may lay different emphasis on what the second verse means
BTW
I hope you also agree with the following:
I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[SUP][c][/SUP] [SUP]20 [/SUP]Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? [SUP]21 [/SUP]For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe
1Cor1:19-21
For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. [SUP]27 [/SUP]But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. [SUP]28 [/SUP]God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, [SUP]29 [/SUP]so that no one may boast before him. [SUP]30 [/SUP]It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. [SUP]31 [/SUP]Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”[SUP][[/SUP][SUP]d[/SUP][SUP]]
25-31
[/SUP]Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”[SUP][[/SUP][SUP]a[/SUP][SUP]][/SUP]; [SUP]20 [/SUP]and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.”[SUP][[/SUP]
1Cor3:18-20
This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[SUP][c][/SUP]
1Cor2:13
BTW
I hope you also agree with the following:
I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[SUP][c][/SUP] [SUP]20 [/SUP]Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? [SUP]21 [/SUP]For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe
1Cor1:19-21
For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. [SUP]27 [/SUP]But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. [SUP]28 [/SUP]God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, [SUP]29 [/SUP]so that no one may boast before him. [SUP]30 [/SUP]It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. [SUP]31 [/SUP]Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”[SUP][[/SUP][SUP]d[/SUP][SUP]]
25-31
[/SUP]Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise. [SUP]19 [/SUP]For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”[SUP][[/SUP][SUP]a[/SUP][SUP]][/SUP]; [SUP]20 [/SUP]and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.”[SUP][[/SUP]
1Cor3:18-20
This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.[SUP][c][/SUP]
1Cor2:13
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M
Sort of yet there's a little more to it, lemme see if I can help explain it.
6Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you,
but you must master it.”
Notice God said YOU (meaning the individual) not anybody else, and not God doing it for us. And he didnt say resisting satan,
again I'll reiterate....God said YOU must master and overcome.
Even though the phrase God helps those that help themselves isnt found in the bible, this would be a good example of this phrase in proper application.
This points to the fact that God doesnt step in to do everything for us
We have to do our part too.
God gave us a brain. He wants us to use it, to have discernment.
We have that ability to choose between our own sinful nature which satan can entice, or Gods holy nature.
In the Garden satan didnt will adam and eve to make a choice away from God
He enticed the will of their own desire to make their own decision.
Its called deception. If there were only satans will and Gods will satan would be able to read our thoughts as God does.
Since satan cannot read our thoughts but can only gauge our reaction by his influence, this means we also have the liberty of our own thoughts thirdly aside from satans and Gods. There is often more than one choice in any given decision.
But only one true and correct choice of Gods will.
Notice...from the beginning in the instance regarding Cain.
God himself stated, and I quote "YOU must master it".
---God didnt even say call upon me and I will help you
---He also didnt say ask me and I will do it for you.
From the beginning God was saying, we on our own accord being given of sound body and mind of our own will.........
----Must master the choice in constantly deciding between sin and righteousness.
God isnt gonna do it for us.
If we look at it from the direction of suggesting that there is only satans will and Gods will, this would elude to the suggestion that even when satan was in heaven there was only Gods will and satans.
There was more than just them two up there.
If satan was an angel in heaven being given his own free will then so would every other angel also have their own free will.
Not just a follower of satan or God
What you are trying to say could be better worded as
-----that there are only two "Outer Influences" to the desires of the flesh which we are inherently born into as a resulting factor of the fall of man.
The way the bible words it is if any is not for Christ then they are against Him. Even if they arent following satan they are still in the same category as an anti-Christ. It doesnt have to be satan himself its just any person choosing anything other than Gods will which can include their own will is still an anti-Christ.
Our own natural will is to choose selfishly,
to look out for number one,
to take care of ourselves first.
This stems from basic survival starting with crying for food as a baby when we're hungry. Wanting it when we want it and will do anything to get it.
Thats following our instinct as opposed to following God
When we start relying upon God is when we begin to see with open eyes that God provides and we dont have to choose selfishly any longer.
It is then when a person will start to step away from their own will and heed to Gods will.
We have been given a higher brain intellect over all the animals to be able to use reasoning over our own will and over our instinct.
This is what God was saying we must be able to master.
An easy for instance would be noticing now as an adult when you are hungry and telling yourself you will wait an hour, until after finishing CC forum logging or something of this nature.
Your body tells you your hungry and you with a higher brain intellect reason above the instincts of the desire of the flesh and master it telling it to wait.
And it obeys.....fasting for instance
We Master Reasoning with the desires of the flesh by reasoning with what God would want compared to what we ourselves want.
Animals cant do that ....we can.
James 1:13 also points out that it is our own evil desires which are already present. Satan can provoke them, entice them, and instigate what is already present within us, but he cannot will one to do anything unless he has possessed them.
13When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire , he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death
This doesnt give credit to satan but instead states and makes clear again as with Cain that it is our own desire that is present which we must stop passing the blame of everything to satan and own up to the fact that we are born of sin with our own present sinful nature to master and that it is often our own desires we are succumbing to.
Let me also point this out with James 4:1
"What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you?"
Just like with quarrels and fights, this doesnt say it is always satans doing.
but from the battle WITHIN OURSELVES. That struggle of denying ourself, dying to the flesh to be born to the holy spirit.
Another way of understanding it is to think of it in reverse of obtaining the knowledge of Good and Evil.
When Adam and Eve already knew good, satan gave the knowledge of evil.
This started the battle within. The knowledge that there was choices outside Gods direction and that even they themselves could choose away from God.
Thats the death part. Sin seperates us from God and our spirit is dead to him.
We gain life in Christ by knowing him and regaining that knowledge again of Good and righteousness, because were not saved until we accept Christ and his ways, correct.
When we are born into sin, we already inherently have the knowledge of evil and in reverse fashion when God starts working on someone satan tries to impede them from having the knowledge of GOOD.
On the other hand if someone is already choosing evil for not knowing any better
IE: not knowing what sin is yet until theyre told,
the devil can sit back without having to do anything when one is simply exercising their own will.
It can be understood that when we are already not choosing Gods will of our own accord, satan doesnt have to do a darn thing.
Thats why most so called "good people" that don't yet know Christ often arent plagued by demons, because they are already fulfilling the will of their own desires of the flesh over Gods will without satans help.
It is more often the ones God is working on that satan then starts to focus on to pull them back.
6Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you,
but you must master it.”
Notice God said YOU (meaning the individual) not anybody else, and not God doing it for us. And he didnt say resisting satan,
again I'll reiterate....God said YOU must master and overcome.
Even though the phrase God helps those that help themselves isnt found in the bible, this would be a good example of this phrase in proper application.
This points to the fact that God doesnt step in to do everything for us
We have to do our part too.
God gave us a brain. He wants us to use it, to have discernment.
We have that ability to choose between our own sinful nature which satan can entice, or Gods holy nature.
In the Garden satan didnt will adam and eve to make a choice away from God
He enticed the will of their own desire to make their own decision.
Its called deception. If there were only satans will and Gods will satan would be able to read our thoughts as God does.
Since satan cannot read our thoughts but can only gauge our reaction by his influence, this means we also have the liberty of our own thoughts thirdly aside from satans and Gods. There is often more than one choice in any given decision.
But only one true and correct choice of Gods will.
Notice...from the beginning in the instance regarding Cain.
God himself stated, and I quote "YOU must master it".
---God didnt even say call upon me and I will help you
---He also didnt say ask me and I will do it for you.
From the beginning God was saying, we on our own accord being given of sound body and mind of our own will.........
----Must master the choice in constantly deciding between sin and righteousness.
God isnt gonna do it for us.
If we look at it from the direction of suggesting that there is only satans will and Gods will, this would elude to the suggestion that even when satan was in heaven there was only Gods will and satans.
There was more than just them two up there.
If satan was an angel in heaven being given his own free will then so would every other angel also have their own free will.
Not just a follower of satan or God
What you are trying to say could be better worded as
-----that there are only two "Outer Influences" to the desires of the flesh which we are inherently born into as a resulting factor of the fall of man.
The way the bible words it is if any is not for Christ then they are against Him. Even if they arent following satan they are still in the same category as an anti-Christ. It doesnt have to be satan himself its just any person choosing anything other than Gods will which can include their own will is still an anti-Christ.
Our own natural will is to choose selfishly,
to look out for number one,
to take care of ourselves first.
This stems from basic survival starting with crying for food as a baby when we're hungry. Wanting it when we want it and will do anything to get it.
Thats following our instinct as opposed to following God
When we start relying upon God is when we begin to see with open eyes that God provides and we dont have to choose selfishly any longer.
It is then when a person will start to step away from their own will and heed to Gods will.
We have been given a higher brain intellect over all the animals to be able to use reasoning over our own will and over our instinct.
This is what God was saying we must be able to master.
An easy for instance would be noticing now as an adult when you are hungry and telling yourself you will wait an hour, until after finishing CC forum logging or something of this nature.
Your body tells you your hungry and you with a higher brain intellect reason above the instincts of the desire of the flesh and master it telling it to wait.
And it obeys.....fasting for instance
We Master Reasoning with the desires of the flesh by reasoning with what God would want compared to what we ourselves want.
Animals cant do that ....we can.
James 1:13 also points out that it is our own evil desires which are already present. Satan can provoke them, entice them, and instigate what is already present within us, but he cannot will one to do anything unless he has possessed them.
13When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire , he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death
This doesnt give credit to satan but instead states and makes clear again as with Cain that it is our own desire that is present which we must stop passing the blame of everything to satan and own up to the fact that we are born of sin with our own present sinful nature to master and that it is often our own desires we are succumbing to.
Let me also point this out with James 4:1
"What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you?"
Just like with quarrels and fights, this doesnt say it is always satans doing.
but from the battle WITHIN OURSELVES. That struggle of denying ourself, dying to the flesh to be born to the holy spirit.
Another way of understanding it is to think of it in reverse of obtaining the knowledge of Good and Evil.
When Adam and Eve already knew good, satan gave the knowledge of evil.
This started the battle within. The knowledge that there was choices outside Gods direction and that even they themselves could choose away from God.
Thats the death part. Sin seperates us from God and our spirit is dead to him.
We gain life in Christ by knowing him and regaining that knowledge again of Good and righteousness, because were not saved until we accept Christ and his ways, correct.
When we are born into sin, we already inherently have the knowledge of evil and in reverse fashion when God starts working on someone satan tries to impede them from having the knowledge of GOOD.
On the other hand if someone is already choosing evil for not knowing any better
IE: not knowing what sin is yet until theyre told,
the devil can sit back without having to do anything when one is simply exercising their own will.
It can be understood that when we are already not choosing Gods will of our own accord, satan doesnt have to do a darn thing.
Thats why most so called "good people" that don't yet know Christ often arent plagued by demons, because they are already fulfilling the will of their own desires of the flesh over Gods will without satans help.
It is more often the ones God is working on that satan then starts to focus on to pull them back.
Ezekiel 36 is about the restoration of the NATION of Israel. This restoration is in the future. Israel had offended God through bloodshed and idolatry (v18). Her punishment meant dispersal among the nations - exile (v19). Yet the Lord would not leave them there; they would return to their land (v24). He would cleanse them and transform them and they would follow him (v25-28). The land and it's people would flourish again (v29-38). The surrounding nations would know that the Lord had acted (v36).
However because of their wickedness millions of INDIVIDUAL people stand condemned despite God giving the Israelite PEOPLE umpteen opportunities to repent. Eventually God gave up on them and hardened their hearts whereby they stood condemned. This was their choice and neither did God force His will on them as individuals despite their being told to "Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near." Isaiah 55:6.
Firstly we are given the choice to repent and turn to God, or stay as we are, the servants of another master. There are millions of people who have responded to the call, as many Israelites have done on a personal level. I pray for the state of the nation and indeed the whole world but nations are made up of individuals and I as a child of God want to make my salvation secure by receiving Christ into my heart and life. The Bible says, "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God." John 1:12
We accept Jesus by faith. The Bible says, "God saved you by his special favour when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it." Ephesians 2:8-9
Accepting Jesus means believing that Jesus is the Son of God, who he claimed to be, then inviting him to guide and direct our lives. I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live Deu 30:19
I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. Joh 10:10b
And here is Jesus' invitation. He said, "I'm standing at the door and I'm knocking. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in." Revelation 3:20
However because of their wickedness millions of INDIVIDUAL people stand condemned despite God giving the Israelite PEOPLE umpteen opportunities to repent. Eventually God gave up on them and hardened their hearts whereby they stood condemned. This was their choice and neither did God force His will on them as individuals despite their being told to "Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near." Isaiah 55:6.
Firstly we are given the choice to repent and turn to God, or stay as we are, the servants of another master. There are millions of people who have responded to the call, as many Israelites have done on a personal level. I pray for the state of the nation and indeed the whole world but nations are made up of individuals and I as a child of God want to make my salvation secure by receiving Christ into my heart and life. The Bible says, "Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God." John 1:12
We accept Jesus by faith. The Bible says, "God saved you by his special favour when you believed. And you can't take credit for this; it is a gift from God. Salvation is not a reward for the good things we have done, so none of us can boast about it." Ephesians 2:8-9
Accepting Jesus means believing that Jesus is the Son of God, who he claimed to be, then inviting him to guide and direct our lives. I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life, that you and your offspring may live Deu 30:19
I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. Joh 10:10b
And here is Jesus' invitation. He said, "I'm standing at the door and I'm knocking. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in." Revelation 3:20
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Midnite and PS, thank you for replying...
I read what you write and I just cannot understand why you wrote all that. You two are SO CLOSE to see and hopefully experience something GREAT, something from GOD!
Please allow me to show you something.... Firstly, MIDNIGHT.... You said that WE SHOULD RULE OVER SIN (KJV) and you are right. that we can do by CHOICE! Every sin we do is a CHOICE! And every sn we do SATAN DEFENATELY has a part in. Satan is the MASTER of SIN from THE BEGINNING!
Midnight if there were no SATAN there will be NO SIN! Please know this. God did not MAKE sinners, God made INNOCENT AND HOLY CREATURES.. God even called it ALL WAS VERY GOOD. God will NEVER call sin good, let alone VERY good. And let me just show you BOTH... You BOTH agreed that Sin is NOT God’s will or statutes or judgements (righteousness)....
Now I would like to show PS... EVERYTHING God said in the Old Testament to Israel, became AVAILABLE for ALL in the NEW Testament, with a Spiritual falvour, if you want to call it that. You know what I mean. God said HE would make people that are not ISRAEL, He would make them HIS PEOPLE, of ALL nations. So there is only ONE promise God made to Israel that we cannot get, I wonder if you know which one?
But this one in EZEKIEL is promised to us in the NEW TESTAMENT,,,, Come on PS can you give us the verse that promise us that gift? I think you can!
Midnight look at this Scripture... 1 John 3:8... ALL sinners are in this group, whether on your books they sinned of themselves or of Satan.... He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Both of you ponder a bit on this verse… PLEASE!!!! Pray and read it and ask God to SHOW you what this means…
I ask, Lord HELP US UNDERSTAND YOUR WILL, AMEN!
I read what you write and I just cannot understand why you wrote all that. You two are SO CLOSE to see and hopefully experience something GREAT, something from GOD!
Please allow me to show you something.... Firstly, MIDNIGHT.... You said that WE SHOULD RULE OVER SIN (KJV) and you are right. that we can do by CHOICE! Every sin we do is a CHOICE! And every sn we do SATAN DEFENATELY has a part in. Satan is the MASTER of SIN from THE BEGINNING!
Midnight if there were no SATAN there will be NO SIN! Please know this. God did not MAKE sinners, God made INNOCENT AND HOLY CREATURES.. God even called it ALL WAS VERY GOOD. God will NEVER call sin good, let alone VERY good. And let me just show you BOTH... You BOTH agreed that Sin is NOT God’s will or statutes or judgements (righteousness)....
Now I would like to show PS... EVERYTHING God said in the Old Testament to Israel, became AVAILABLE for ALL in the NEW Testament, with a Spiritual falvour, if you want to call it that. You know what I mean. God said HE would make people that are not ISRAEL, He would make them HIS PEOPLE, of ALL nations. So there is only ONE promise God made to Israel that we cannot get, I wonder if you know which one?
But this one in EZEKIEL is promised to us in the NEW TESTAMENT,,,, Come on PS can you give us the verse that promise us that gift? I think you can!
Midnight look at this Scripture... 1 John 3:8... ALL sinners are in this group, whether on your books they sinned of themselves or of Satan.... He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Both of you ponder a bit on this verse… PLEASE!!!! Pray and read it and ask God to SHOW you what this means…
I ask, Lord HELP US UNDERSTAND YOUR WILL, AMEN!
You are only scratching the surface Corbus, but I am glad you spoke about choice to midnite, at least you recognise that sin is a choice which means those who sin are choosing satan's path who you say is the Master of Sin from the beginning. Remember that Jesus himself told us we need to CHOOSE which master we will follow.
I also hope you take to heart that it is OUR choice. You are correct to say that Gentiles will be grafted onto the vine and he will make His people from ALL nations, but there is a proviso which is that we turn from wickedness (Satan) and turn to righteousness and follow God. The point being is that this is the choice WE make. Notice in the following verses how important it is that WE turn.
Eze 3:19 But if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, or from his wicked way, he shall die for his iniquity, but you will have delivered your soul.
Eze 3:20 Again, if a righteous person turns from his righteousness and commits injustice....he shall die. Because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds that he has done shall not be remembered, but his blood I will require at your hand.
Eze 3:21 But if you warn the righteous person not to sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he took warning, and you will have delivered your soul."
In all seriousness people of the Reformed persuasion seem to sit back and say they have been elected, while others have not. This is such a dangerous doctrine and according to the scripture above the blood of the unrighteous will be upon their hands!
Ezekiel is saying that firstly WE need to have turned to Him, and as far as I can tell this comprises work for some people which means they are lost for eternity! Then when we are right with God it is our duty to tell others to turn. This is a far cry from being elected and it is even further from the simple message of salvation which is simply to believe in God which the Reformed say is work.
All I can say is "May God have mercy on your soul."
I also hope you take to heart that it is OUR choice. You are correct to say that Gentiles will be grafted onto the vine and he will make His people from ALL nations, but there is a proviso which is that we turn from wickedness (Satan) and turn to righteousness and follow God. The point being is that this is the choice WE make. Notice in the following verses how important it is that WE turn.
Eze 3:19 But if you warn the wicked, and he does not turn from his wickedness, or from his wicked way, he shall die for his iniquity, but you will have delivered your soul.
Eze 3:20 Again, if a righteous person turns from his righteousness and commits injustice....he shall die. Because you have not warned him, he shall die for his sin, and his righteous deeds that he has done shall not be remembered, but his blood I will require at your hand.
Eze 3:21 But if you warn the righteous person not to sin, and he does not sin, he shall surely live, because he took warning, and you will have delivered your soul."
In all seriousness people of the Reformed persuasion seem to sit back and say they have been elected, while others have not. This is such a dangerous doctrine and according to the scripture above the blood of the unrighteous will be upon their hands!
Ezekiel is saying that firstly WE need to have turned to Him, and as far as I can tell this comprises work for some people which means they are lost for eternity! Then when we are right with God it is our duty to tell others to turn. This is a far cry from being elected and it is even further from the simple message of salvation which is simply to believe in God which the Reformed say is work.
All I can say is "May God have mercy on your soul."
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