Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

[Bookends]

This thread is as much about application as

the visit of the Magi,
the flight into Egypt,
the flogging by Pilate,
the crown of thorns,
the mocking by the soldier,
the rejection by unbelieving Israel,
the anointing for burial,
etc., etc., etc.

are about it.

It is not, it's about expressing your ideologies which are grounded in Calvinism. Which is fine, I have nothing against it really, just don't agree with some of it, perhaps a lot of it...I love some of the Calvinist teachers, open to hear what they have to teach, but always need to keep in the back of my mind that we are all fallible, including Calvin. Our ideas, doctrine(s) and comments should always be said in love and humility, which this thread I feel does not. Seems to me that Christian fundamentalism is just as dangerous as what we have on the other side of the spectrum, which is postmodernism.

Can someone tell me why some Calvinist seem to hate Anabaptists? Where the Calvinist the ones burning the Anabaptists at the stake? I'm so glad I don't let any of these Christian sects blow me into a straight jacket of their rigid understanding of biblical isms, and that gathering all the blessed light given in God's word is what sways me one way or another.

Anabaptist - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Abiding]

Elin are you one who believes regeneration comes before faith?

 

[Abiding]

Our Romans 9 back and forth doesnt look productive.
Too many minor themes to settle before it could be.

 

[zone]

Re: Sover"eignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

zone - black
find a single post where ANYONE EVER said the jews can not be saved.
either pay attention, or stop with the very false accusations you are whining about elsewhere, ok chris?
--I am not talking about a Jew or Gentile, I am talking about 'limited atonement' which says that one's faith and hope is useless because if you are doomed you are doomed. What is false is to say that God is the reason and cause of wickedness because He wanted you to be doomed. This would have God judging Himself, seeing that people will be judged by their works (dos). I would understand that as false. However, Truth is, 'whosoever shall believe will be given everlasting live'. He who comes after me, I will never cast aside.


awww.....that's good.
but show where anyone has said there is no hope for people and that faith doesn't matter...OR IS FOLLY.
no one has said that. that's BLASPHEMY

--God has selected the elect for salvation, so says the 'limited atonement'. But, we are told the elect are those who in Christ. We Christians are the ones given to Jesus by God, and therefore are the elect. But to say 'limited atonement' then one has to conclude that no matter your heart desires and how you come to God with a contrite heart and did what was commanded by Jesus, namely: love, if you are destined to hell, then to hell you shall go. That is the only conclusion one can come to when you say God has pre-ordained every one to their final destination. Where then is there any hope in faith?


if they have - FIND IT....show me someone saying no hope no faith...that it's folly. GO GET IT. --'limited atonement'

but you guys are undermining a thread that you don't care about and don't believe. --Of course I do not believe. But I will let others know that their faith and hope is not lost on a theory which says your eternity is already decided.

so why are you here? --But I will let others know that their faith and hope is not lost on a theory which says your eternity is already decided when it says come to me and I will be your Shepherd to led you Home.

you don't even understand what's being said. --Oh contrarily, I do.

evidenced by what i just responded to.

i won't be responding if you don't use the quote feature.
this other way is lazy, and can lead to errors and misinterpretations.

you made all those remarks about what you think limited atonement is, and you never actually made any effort to understand what ELIN (not CALVIN or TULIP) was saying. she stated in her OP what her was and was not intended to do. did you ever read that?

it seems to me you have no intention of actually examining the scriptures and seeing if these things are so - you're appealing to a nebulous emotional response which is fine, but one post on that should suffice.

posting your complaints (about you think was being said - which is wrong anyways) in the manner you did tarred THE PEOPLE posting on THIS THREAD about a specific subject, (which is not new, and is discussed in every bible forum around the world in some for or other) with the notions that you laid out, which i asked to prove and you can not....return to the post where this min-convo started....the accusations youu made that some people say there's no hope, no faith and who knows what else.

NONSENSE.

faith and hope are for people who believe (in something - Obama; a warn winter; Allah - or JESUS)

that's 101.

unregenerate man doesn't have faith and he doesn't have hope.

take the Gospel to them - give them the faith and hope IN THE GOSPEL. if you're not doing that, you're just here talking.

on the other hand - as i asked - go find anywhere on this forum where anyone at any time has said there is no hope or no faith for people. you won't find it. so your philosophizing and sounding all righteously offended for an unknown group of people is moot and void.

UNLESS you are a universalist.

what? you don't believe God elected Israel? huh?

Christians are the elect? find anyone SAYING THEY ARE NOT.

anyone in Christ is the election - you do not understand this?

anyways, as i said, please use the quote feature i don't do the other way.
thanks

 

[zone]

It is not, it's about expressing your ideologies which are grounded in Calvinism. Which is fine, I have nothing against it really, just don't agree with some of it, perhaps a lot of it...I love some of the Calvinist teachers, open to hear what they have to teach, but always need to keep in the back of my mind that we are all fallible, including Calvin. Our ideas, doctrine(s) and comments should always be said in love and humility, which this thread I feel does not. Seems to me that Christian fundamentalism is just as dangerous as what we have on the other side of the spectrum, which is postmodernism.

Can someone tell me why some Calvinist seem to hate Anabaptists? Where the Calvinist the ones burning the Anabaptists at the stake? I'm so glad I don't let any of these Christian sects blow me into a straight jacket of their rigid understanding of biblical isms, and that gathering all the blessed light given in God's word is what sways me one way or another.

Anabaptist - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

oh i hope you don't just fall down a rabbit trail without looking into the subject from the beginning.
may want be sure to see what the Anbaptists did themselves and to whom, and from where they started.
just to keep a balanced view

 

[zone]

Our Romans 9 back and forth doesnt look productive.
Too many minor themes to settle before it could be.

i'm sorry for derailing mike.
i'll leave it.

 

[Abiding]

i'm sorry for derailing mike.
i'll leave it.

Huh?

 

[Abiding]

Your not bothering me i got you on ignore

 

[Abiding]

new recipe try one

 

[cfultz3]

Re: Sover"eignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

not complaints, just the end conclusion of the matter.

i won't be responding if you don't use the quote feature.
this other way is lazy, and can lead to errors and misinterpretations.

you made all those remarks about what you think limited atonement is, and you never actually made any effort to understand what ELIN (not CALVIN or TULIP) was saying. she stated in her OP what her was and was not intended to do. did you ever read that?

it seems to me you have no intention of actually examining the scriptures and seeing if these things are so - you're appealing to a nebulous emotional response which is fine, but one post on that should suffice.

posting your complaints (about you think was being said - which is wrong anyways) in the manner you did tarred THE PEOPLE posting on THIS THREAD about a specific subject, (which is not new, and is discussed in every bible forum around the world in some for or other) with the notions that you laid out, which i asked to prove and you can not....return to the post where this min-convo started....the accusations youu made that some people say there's no hope, no faith and who knows what else.

NONSENSE.

faith and hope are for people who believe (in something - Obama; a warn winter; Allah - or JESUS)

that's 101.

unregenerate man doesn't have faith and he doesn't have hope.

take the Gospel to them - give them the faith and hope IN THE GOSPEL. if you're not doing that, you're just here talking.

on the other hand - as i asked - go find anywhere on this forum where anyone at any time has said there is no hope or no faith for people. you won't find it. so your philosophizing and sounding all righteously offended for an unknown group of people is moot and void.

UNLESS you are a universalist.

what? you don't believe God elected Israel? huh?

Christians are the elect? find anyone SAYING THEY ARE NOT.

anyone in Christ is the election - you do not understand this?

anyways, as i said, please use the quote feature i don't do the other way.
thanks

 

[cfultz3]

As per request. (it keeps bunching words up together.....)

Ac4:27-28-Those who conspired "against God's holy servant, Jesus, didwhat God'spurpose determined before tobe done."

In looking at the Biblical meaning of foreknowledge in Ac 4:28, there are two things:

• the meaning of "determine" in its statement that "God determines beforehand what is done."

It states that God predetermined what would happen to His Son in theirhands and everything happened exactely as was willed by God. It doesnot imply that He predetermines all things. If all things arepredetermined, then one can conclude something along the lines of'limited atonement'. It can even be said that God predetermined thefall of the angels, even the fall of man, even the eternal death ofsouls. From this predetermined concept, it can even be concluded thatthe reason why God made man was because He foreordained the death ofHis Son (I speak as a man).

God knows in advance what is going to happen because he has determined that it shall happen.

Foreknowledge does not equal foreordained. Again, if all things are predetermined,even one's salvation, why then go through the process of sending His Son? If one is already destined, why even bother to come to Christ,seeing that wither you do or not, you will end up where you were destined to go.

Andto what God determines, there is no altering.

• the eternal principles stated in Ac 4:28
  1) It is God, not men, who determines what happens.
  2) What God determines, shall happen, because he has determined that it shall happen.

This is made in the assumption that God determines all things. It says that He determined exactly what would happen to Jesus. What one would consider Old Testament prophecy concerning Him. God ever determined what the death of His Son would bring about. Namely,salvation through grace. The conclusion of the rebellion. The bringing in of His Kingdom. All of this was promised to those who would come to Him as their Savior. If we are predetermined to Heaven,then His death means nothing more than acquiring a victory which we already had obtained in God's predetermination of one's eternity. If we are predetermined to Hell, then His death means nothing more than acquiring an obedience to God's Law which we already had in, again,God's predetermination. If our eternal destination is pre-determined, then it can only be concluded that Jesus' death was nothing more than a show in an already set play.

And then in looking at the nature of God:

Scripture does not present a God whose will or plans are

• conditioned on or determined by (Ex 9:6; Ac 4:28),
• thwarted by (2Chr 20:6; Job 9:12, 42:2; Is 14:27; Da 4:35),
• or who sustains loss because of (Jn 6:37; Ac 13:48) the actions of men.

God's Sovereign will has been, is, and shall be done. But, besides Jesus fulfilling the Father's will in salvation being through grace, what is the final destination of God's will if not to bring us back into a fellowship with Him. If God through that act of grace has then selectively chosen who shall receive everlasting life, then what does that tell us if not that He is unfair. Unfair in the sense of, "But God, you said if I believe in Christ I shall receive everlasting life". Would it not lead one to conclude that God lied because He did not really mean 'whosoever' when He could have said 'God so loved the elect, that He gave His only begotten Son, so that when those elect shall believe upon Him, shall be given everlasting life"?And in the end, all those who were not elected would not had wasted their time in having placed their confidence in Him and would had been better served in having not believed in the first place
.

Rather,Scripture presents a God

• who ordains or decrees everything (Lam 3:37), down to the last detail (Ps 50:11, 139:16, 147:4; Mt 10:30),

Again,God's Sovereignty foreknowledge, and omniscient does not equal a pre-determination of all things. Just because these are qualities He possess does not mean that things outside of His salvational plan are pre-ordained. But, He has, does, and will use His Sovereignty to fulfill His will in those He foreknew would act in a certain matter because He is omniscient.It would be illogical to conclude that He purposely pre-ordained man's fall so that that which He had pre-planned would come to pass.If He wanted man to come back into a relationship with Him, why not just re-create Adam and Eve minus Satan?

It is men, not Scripture, who present God as simply knowing in advance what men are going to do, and then basing his plans on their action.

It is God who presents Himself as knowing in advance what men was goingto do. Hence, the reason the death of Christ was pre-ordained before the foundation of the world.



shortenedfor length.......

 

[cfultz3]

Correction:

From this predetermined concept, it can even be concluded thatthe reason why God made man was because He foreordained the death ofHis Son (I speak as a man).

Should be:

From this predetermined concept, it can even be concluded that the reason why God made man was because He foreordained the death of His Son (I speak as a man) just for the joy of having done it.

 

[zone]

Huh?

he-e-e-e-e-y...the fee on that pic is a white head scarf.

but - not sweaty prayer over it needed (like waaziz face)

 

[Bookends]

oh i hope you don't just fall down a rabbit trail without looking into the subject from the beginning.
may want be sure to see what the Anbaptists did themselves and to whom, and from where they started.
just to keep a balanced view

Good idea Zone. thanks. I just wish I had all the time in the world to read all the stuff out there, but it could take me away from what is really worthy to be read.

 

[Elin]

It is not, it's about expressing your ideologies which are grounded in Calvinism.

My "ideology" is from Scripture.

Until you show that it is not Scripture, your statement is without merit.

 

[zone]

Good idea Zone. thanks. I just wish I had all the time in the world to read all the stuff out there, but it could take me away from what is really worthy to be read.

okay...i could send you a summary on it, a page or two if you want to. that's all.
but hear what you are saying.
i've been disabled for 10 years. so i have a lot of time to read.

Can someone tell me why some Calvinist seem to hate Anabaptists? Where the Calvinist the ones burning the Anabaptists at the stake?

Anabaptist - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Elin]

Elin are you one who believes regeneration comes before faith?

Only logically.

I think rebirth, sonship, faith, forgiveness, indwelling of the Holy Spirit are all one dynamic event.

 

[Elin]

Our Romans 9 back and forth doesnt look productive.
Too many minor themes to settle before it could be.

Yeah, you're right on that.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Re: Sover"eignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

Nor did I state it was an excuse.


Ah, now we're down to it.

I didn't state it, you inferred it.

And you are upset because although I also didn't state it, you think I inferred it about you.

So you get to infer about me, but I don't get to infer about you (which I did not do anyway).

Looks like a double standard to me.

Yeah I get it, You just said it just to say it.. Like everyone in here believes this.. Well one other will.. We are not stupid!

Why are you harboring centuries-old grievances?

Why? should we not understand where certain thinking comes from? It is you guys who always like to use history. I guess we just pick and chose which history to look at?

Do you believe in the forgiveness Jesus taught, or not?

Do you?

And by the same ridiculous standard, do you acknowledge all the grievances zone listed here?

I guess you did not see my answer. Yes I acknowledge them. I have never denied them. But for some reason, I keep saying one thing, and you all keep saying I don't.

I'm thinkin' Mt 7:3-5, 6:12 here.

So now you calling all those jews Zone mentioned your brother?? wow ok...........

 

[zone]

Re: Sover"eignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

So now you calling all those jews Zone mentioned your brother?? wow ok..

uh...wha?

i didn't know Lev Davidovich Bronshtein was listening to the Sermon on the Mount and became a brother.

why is this such an emotional and fuzzy appeal to history and reality you don't seem to know anything about?

mixing two separate religions and mixing believers with unbelievers and calling them one?

would you call hitler your brother?

if not, why not?

when does someone become a brother?

Galatians 4
22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children