Heresy on Christianchat

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7seven7

Guest
Which to my mind means that nobody was acting in accordance with the teaching of Jesus. It is my firm belief that in order to be able to call ourselves Christians we need to act according to the teaching of the Lord Jesus Christ and according to that definition none of the above could truly call themselves Christians. That is a hard thing to say I know but we are specifically instructed not to murder and those who do are breaking the sixth commandment and stand condemned before God, neither do they have any excuse because they all knew the word of God.

You are right, not only were their hands dirty, their hands were sinful like their hearts.
I agree, but I wouldn't say "none of the above could truly call themselves Christians." Those Popes who cleaned up the mess had no part in all that rubbish that went on. They cleaned up the mess and showed mercy. We can't just ignore the good that they did, can we? BUT! Again, there was alot of corruption, both in the Catholic Church, and the Protestant Church. My point was, no one can go pointing fingers without being a hypocrite! Which so many people do to the Catholic Church. Anyway, its the continuation of an earlier discussion with crossnote. God bless.
 
A

AgeofKnowledge

Guest
No you do not. You look perfectly fine and I LOVE your passion for the Lord.

Sometimes, I just can't help interjecting a little humor into serious discussions. It might be a personality flaw of mine. Honestly, it's probably not the only one either.

God bless YOU. :)

Do I really look like that fish? Far out! I need to lose some weight
 
P

Professor

Guest
I've been skimming this thread. I just want to say: All of us who follow the Lord are brothers and sisters in Christ -- Protestant and Catholic alike. Would any of us say that Mother Theresa, for example, did not walk closely with God? I know that we are going to disagree about this or that, but those of us who approach God with a loving heart, desiring to know His will, are God's children. Each one of us.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
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I've been skimming this thread. I just want to say: All of us who follow the Lord are brothers and sisters in Christ -- Protestant and Catholic alike. Would any of us say that Mother Theresa, for example, did not walk closely with God? I know that we are going to disagree about this or that, but those of us who approach God with a loving heart, desiring to know His will, are God's children. Each one of us.
It's a matter of what one actually believes. Contradictory beliefs and teachings can not be from the same source. So much of the so called "christian unity" of the day is just wishful thinking. Much of with a political agenda.

Jam.3

[11] Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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Brother. I have a good reply to this one that might even teach you a thing or two about the Inquisitions. But I really have to go to class right now and i promise to reply when I get back tonight. Just one thing. Please don't speak to me in a bitter tone. I see this as a discussion, not an argument. Whether you like it or not, we are brothers in Christ, and I love you. God bless.
No bitterness here, I realize we are Christians. I just get a little flustered when I hear from any group that ''we are the one true church''.
 
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I would say that the biblical requirement unto salvation is far simpler, and not as demanding as are often mans requirements

But then much theology had not developed by the time the books of the NT had been written down
 
J

jimmydiggs

Guest
OK, brother. To start off, I want to say that no one enters this conversation with clean hands. The Catholic Church has had corruption in it in the past, and done some wrong things. But as you will see, the protestants haven't been innocent either. So if you're claiming that the Catholic Church is evil because of some corrupt members (which you will find anywhere where there is the human element), then you will have to make the same judgement on the Protestant Church too. Here is some information I found about the Spanish inquisition:

The 16th century was a brutal period. The use of torture and execution by burning at the stake was common in Catholic and Protestant Europe. In the Elizabethan courts of Protestant England, people were hung, drawn and quartered for hearing Mass in their own homes (remember how you mentioned martyrdom in your earlier comment?).
Furthermore, not only was the Mass illegal in Elizabeth England but anyone who did not attend anglican services was fined. Anyone who refused to take the Oath of Supremecy after two refusals was executed. To convert to Catholicism was high treason; priests could be executed if caught; informers roamed the country reporting on priests and Catholic activity.

About the Spanish Inquisition:
The Spanish Inquisition was established in 1478 and is the most famous, or infamous, of all Inquisitions. In 1492, Spain was finally united as a single country after nearly 8 centuries of struggle against the Moors. Queen Isabella knew that Spains unity depended upon a strong Church. She set about halting many abuses.
One of the more serious problems faced by Isabella was the number of Jews and Moors who had pretended to convert to the Catholic religion without really believing in it. These false converts had risen to high positions in government and Church, and many were secretly plotting the downfall of Isabella, Spain and the Church.
The method chosen by Isabella to find these agents was the Inquisition. What is often overlooked is that the Spanish Inquisition was instituted for persons who proffessed to be Catholics and not for practicing Jews or Moslems. It also aimed to unearth and bring to penance bigamists, adulterers, heretics (like me apparently), blasphemers and other baptized men and women who violated the teachings of the Catholic Church.
At first there were abuses, with many people being falsely accused, tortured and imprisoned. Popes Leo X, Paul III, Paul IV and Sixtus IV condemned these abuses. Pope Leo X, for example, excommunicated the Catholic tribunal at Toledo and ordered the arrest of the witnesses who appeared before it for perjury.New judges were appointed,headed by the Dominican friar Thomas de Torquemanda. He reformed procedures, making them more lenient, improving prison conditions and personally heard appeals. Torquemanda was pious and just, and certainly does not deserve the reputation foisted upon him by slanderers who have an "axe to grind" against all things Catholic.
The 16th century was a brutal period. The use of torture and execution by burning at the stake was common in Catholic and Protestant Europe. In the Elizabethan courts of Protestant England, people were hung, drawn and quartered for hearing Mass in their own homes (remember how you mentioned martyrdom in your earlier comment?).
Furthermore, not only was the Mass illegal in Elizabeth England but anyone who did not attend anglican services was fined. Anyone who refused to take the Oath of Supremecy after two refusals was executed. To convert to Catholicism was high treason; priests could be executed if caught; informers roamed the country reporting on priests and Catholic activity.

Mate, I'm not saying that everybody in the Catholic Church is perfect. But Her teachings are true and just! Here's what the Catechism says about the past:

2298 In times past, cruel practices were commonly used by legitimate governments to maintain law and order, often without protest from the Pastors of the Church, who themselves adopted in their own tribunals the prescriptions of Roman law concerning torture. Regrettable as these facts are, the Church always taught the duty of clemency and mercy. She forbade clerics to shed blood. In recent times it has become evident that these cruel practices were neither necessary for public order, nor in conformity with the legitimate rights of the human person. On the contrary, these practices led to ones even more degrading. It is necessary to work for their abolition. We must pray for the victims and their tormentors.

Brother! Nobody comes into this discussion about violence with clean hands. Including the Protestants. God bless.
Just helping cite your sources :)

Catholic Apologetics - Lumen Verum - Apologetics course part two <--- partly from here such as this line: "The 16th Century was a brutal period. The use of torture, execution by burning
at the stake, was common in Catholic and Protestant Europe." with bits and pieces clipped after.

Along with this piece: http://www.scta.org.au/catholicanswers/vol4_df/TheInquisition.doc <--- click
"The use of torture and execution by burning at the stake was common in Catholic and Protestant Europe. In the Elizabethan courts of Protestant England, people were hung, drawn and quartered for hearing Mass in their own homes."

Some other possible sources, although it looks like one person said it and the rest copied it:
DefendtheFaith - page 378 of 407 <--- click
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=..._n9zsmbGn01fBOhYusgQ0Lg&bvm=bv.43287494,d.b2I <--- click
 
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jimmydiggs

Guest
Would any of us say that Mother Theresa, for example, did not walk closely with God?
She did a lot of work, that's about all I can say. If she did not believe and preach the Gospel, then all her work is just a pile of bloody rags.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
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Just helping cite your sources :)

Catholic Apologetics - Lumen Verum - Apologetics course part two <--- partly from here such as this line: "The 16th Century was a brutal period. The use of torture, execution by burning
at the stake, was common in Catholic and Protestant Europe." with bits and pieces clipped after.

Along with this piece: http://www.scta.org.au/catholicanswers/vol4_df/TheInquisition.doc <--- click
"The use of torture and execution by burning at the stake was common in Catholic and Protestant Europe. In the Elizabethan courts of Protestant England, people were hung, drawn and quartered for hearing Mass in their own homes."

Some other possible sources, although it looks like one person said it and the rest copied it:
DefendtheFaith - page 378 of 407 <--- click
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=..._n9zsmbGn01fBOhYusgQ0Lg&bvm=bv.43287494,d.b2I <--- click
In both cases the church overstepped her bounds by wielding the sword.
 
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7seven7

Guest
No you do not. You look perfectly fine and I LOVE your passion for the Lord.

Sometimes, I just can't help interjecting a little humor into serious discussions. It might be a personality flaw of mine. Honestly, it's probably not the only one either.

God bless YOU. :)
Hey thats exactly what I do sometimes lol I like that in people. I wouldn't call it a personality flaw, brother! It could be seen as a gift, depending on who you're talking to haha. God bless Nimo!!! And you, mate!
 
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7seven7

Guest
Just helping cite your sources :)

Catholic Apologetics - Lumen Verum - Apologetics course part two <--- partly from here such as this line: "The 16th Century was a brutal period. The use of torture, execution by burning
at the stake, was common in Catholic and Protestant Europe." with bits and pieces clipped after.

Along with this piece: http://www.scta.org.au/catholicanswers/vol4_df/TheInquisition.doc <--- click
"The use of torture and execution by burning at the stake was common in Catholic and Protestant Europe. In the Elizabethan courts of Protestant England, people were hung, drawn and quartered for hearing Mass in their own homes."

Some other possible sources, although it looks like one person said it and the rest copied it:
DefendtheFaith - page 378 of 407 <--- click
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CDUQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fclio.missouristate.edu%2Fchuchiak%2Ftemplate%2FSpan_INQ_Origins.ppt&ei=IM84UYjMJeGh2gXItoCgDA&usg=AFQjCNF_1nf_n9zsmbGn01fBOhYusgQ0Lg&bvm=bv.43287494,d.b2I <--- click
Yes, brother, there wasn't a chance on earth i was going to write the whole lot. I typre with my index fingers and it takes a very very long time lol. I just wanted to show enough to make my point about nobody being perfect. Including the actions of the corrupt in the Catholic Church. I didn't clip out pieces intentionally to fool anyone. It didn't work out that way anyway. But on the topic of Defend the Faith, have you read anymore of it? It's really very interesting for anyone who hasn't heard the defence of the Catholic Church on alot of topics (not aiming anything at you).
 
7

7seven7

Guest
She did a lot of work, that's about all I can say. If she did not believe and preach the Gospel, then all her work is just a pile of bloody rags.
She did all her work in the name of the Lord. But even if she didn't, do you think that the Lord would take no notice to the love that she showed people? We don't know fullywhat our Lord sees as a pile of rags and as precious gems. It's whats in a person's heart that ALSO matters to the Lord.
 
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7seven7

Guest
Anyway, this thread has gone wayyyyyy off topic. It's been a pleasure and a blessing being a part of this discussion with you all. God bless and guide you always.
Charlie
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
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She did all her work in the name of the Lord. But even if she didn't, do you think that the Lord would take no notice to the love that she showed people? We don't know fullywhat our Lord sees as a pile of rags and as precious gems. It's whats in a person's heart that ALSO matters to the Lord.
For God only the work of Christ matters. We are to trust that work for our right standing with God, not our own hearts.

[h=3]Heb.10[/h][7] Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
[8] Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
[9] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
[10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
[h=3]Jer.17[/h][9] The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
[h=3]Prov.28[/h][26] He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool: but whoso walketh wisely, he shall be delivered.
 
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7seven7

Guest
For God only the work of Christ matters. We are to trust that work for our right standing with God, not our own hearts.
Amen! But I wasn't talking about our perception of our hearts. I was talking about what GOD knows is in our hearts. If there is a person living in the middle of the desert, who has never heard the Word of God before, but still acts in love and kindness all their life towards everybody they come accross, do you think they have a chance of spending eternity with God?
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,622
282
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Amen! But I wasn't talking about our perception of our hearts. I was talking about what GOD knows is in our hearts. If there is a person living in the middle of the desert, who has never heard the Word of God before, but still acts in love and kindness all their life towards everybody they come accross, do you think they have a chance of spending eternity with God?
If they have never heard and believed they gospel, how can they be saved?
 
7

7seven7

Guest
If they have never heard and believed they gospel, how can they be saved?
Wow! so you think that our Lord would just leave them for damnation, even though they are totally unaware of and never heard about Christ, and even though they live in love? Brother, do you really think that our LOVING GOD could be so harsh?
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,622
282
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Wow! so you think that our Lord would just leave them for damnation, even though they are totally unaware of and never heard about Christ, and even though they live in love? Brother, do you really think that our LOVING GOD could be so harsh?
You are trusting your heart too much, pal. God is not what you think He is, He is what He says He is in His Word. Where do you find any promise of salvation to people who never believed the gospel?
 
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7seven7

Guest
You are trusting your heart too much, pal. God is not what you think He is, He is what He says He is in His Word. Where do you find any promise of salvation to people who never believed the gospel?
Believed the Gospel? They have never had access to the Gospel. They don't KNOW the Gospel. How can they believe it? It's got nothing to do with my heart, and EVERYTHING to do with knowing that my Lord understands people's situations and looks forward to receiving them, not for reasons to damn them. My Father loves us all. Even the ones who have never had any way of knowing Him. God bless.
 

Katy-follower

Senior Member
Jun 25, 2011
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Wow! so you think that our Lord would just leave them for damnation, even though they are totally unaware of and never heard about Christ, and even though they live in love? Brother, do you really think that our LOVING GOD could be so harsh?
John 14:6: Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me"

Romans 1:20: "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse"

John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life"

Being somewhat of a 'good' person doesn't make you righteous, only the blood of Jesus. There is only one way.

John 3:3: Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

As the church we spread the "good news" to the world. We have missionaries that travel to these far out countries to share the gospel. Scripture says that some will perish for they didn't receive the love of the truth that they might be saved :(

You say "living in love," but what exactly would that be, apart from Christ? No one can love with a Godly love without the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. Without the Spirit it would be a work of self.
 
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