Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Re: Sover"eignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

uh...wha?

i didn't know Lev Davidovich Bronshtein was listening to the Sermon on the Mount and became a brother.

why is this such an emotional and fuzzy appeal to history and reality you don't seem to know anything about?

mixing two separate religions and mixing believers with unbelievers and calling them one?

would you call hitler your brother?

if not, why not?

when does someone become a brother?

Galatians 4
22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by a slave woman and one by a free woman. 23But the son of the slave was born according to the flesh, while the son of the free woman was born through promise. 24Now this may be interpreted allegorically: these women are two covenants. One is from Mount Sinai, bearing children for slavery; she is Hagar. 25Now Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia;e she corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children

She asked me to respond to the post you sent (which I did, and of course no response back) and then said this was her answer.. How else should I take it other than she was responding to how I should treat those people??


I did not know they were my brothers. I thought they were my enemy. Because they do not have the gospel. so we should love them and give them the gospel .

Of course I already said this MANY MANY times.. But you refuse to acknowledge I even believe this.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
Three objections to the sovereignty of God in the actions of men have been addressed Biblically and removed:
1. God's sovereignty violates man's free will.
(Part II, here).

2. It is unjust to hold unregenerate mankind responsible for sin when they are unable to obey God.
(Part III, here)

3. It is unjust to hold mankind guilty of Adam's sin when mankind did not incur that sin.
(Part IV, here)

The last objection may be the most difficult with which to reckon.

V. Sovereignty of God in the Actions of Men:
(strong meat for the mature--Heb 5:11-14)

This will be taking us into God's eternal counsels regarding his justice.
God's justice is a much-neglected stepchild in many Christians' faith and understanding, and something they prefer not to deal with.
We like the good stuff about God, and prefer to have an incomplete view of him.
Therefore, the Scripture references should be diligently studied if one's mind is to be renewed (transformed) by these Scriptures,
for it takes more than just the logic of this to overcome fallen man's strong disposition against it (Mt 20:12; Ro 3:5, 7, 8, 9:14, 19).

One question still remains regarding God operating within the dispositions of men (Ex 12:36, 14:17; 2Sa 24:1; 1Kgs 22:23; 2Kgs 19:7; 1Chr 5:26; Is 13:17; Eze 14:9). How then can God justly hold unregenerate man responsible for what he does when, because of God's operation within his disposition, he voluntarily does as God determines (Ro 9:19)?

That question is resolved in God's choice of election (Ro 9:14-21). As we saw previously in this (Part IV), all men are born justly condemned to damnation (Jn 3:18b-19, 36), because of their guilt of Adam's sin which is imputed to them (Ro 5:12-21).
God elects to save some from their just condemnation (Mt 24:31; Ro 11:7; 2Tim 2:10; Tit 1:1; 1Pe 1:1; cf Ac 13:48) while leaving the remainder in their just condemnation,
and all to serve his own purposes, among them being the glory of his justice (Ex 14:17-18; Eze 28:22-23), which is a foil setting off the glory of his mercy (Ro 9:22-23).

Since he has left them in their just condemnation for the sake of his own purposes, he also operates within their dispositions to effect various of those purposes.
But because his operation within their disposition does not alter their eternal destiny, God does them no injustice in causing them to voluntarily do as he determines, because they suffer no eternal loss thereby.
Also by definition, God can do the reprobate no injustice in causing him to glorify his justice, because it is just that the unjust should glorify the justice of God.

For glory is a debt the reprobate justly owes God (Ro 1:20-21) and, as shown previously (Part III), a debt which God will exact of him to the last penny (Mt 5:26, 18:34), for God is loser to no man.
Therefore, it is just that God should collect (foreclose on) the debt of glory owed to him by the unjust reprobate;
thereby removing any injustice in the sovereignty of God
(operating within the unjust reprobate's disposition in accordance with his Biblical free will, and causing him to voluntarily do as God determines),
holding the unjust reprobate accountable for his debt, because by definition
it is just that the unjust reprobate should glorify the justice of God.

And thus, all mankind is shut up in sin (Ro 3:19; Gal 3:22) and without excuse (Ro 1:20),
so that Christ may be his only hope, source and remedy (Ro 5:20-21; Gal 3:22; Col 1:16-20).
God has decreed that all things shall come to all men (Gentile as well as Jew) in Christ alone (2Co 1:20; Mt 11:27; Jn 14:6; Ro 15:8; Gal 3:16) and,
therefore, God has shut up all men (Jew as well as Gentile) in guilt and sin (Ro 3:9-12, 19, 5:19-20, 11:30-32),
not leaving even the possibility that man can have anything outside Christ, except a promise to perish (Jn 3:16; 18, 36).
And in this way the wisdom of God (1Co 2:7, 1:24-25) accomplishes his eternal decree (Ps 2:7; Lk 22:22; Jn 6:40, 10:18, 14:31; Ac 2:23)
regarding the glory and exaltation of his Christ, for the sake of God's pleasure in his own glory (Eph 1:9-11; Col 1:17-20, 26-38, 2:2-3; Rev 4:11).

God glorifies his mercy by saving only some men, because the glory of his justice is more important than the salvation of all men.

Oh, the depths of the riches of the wisdom and knowlege of God!
How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!

"Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?" (that he may instruct God--Isa 40:13)

"Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?" (Job 41:11; Lk 17:9)**

For from him and through him and to him are all things,
To him be the glory forever! Amen!


---Ro 11:33-36---

**There is nothing in us that can make God a debtor to us, which he would be if he chose us because he knew we would choose him.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
Only logically.

I think rebirth, sonship, faith, forgiveness, indwelling of the Holy Spirit are all one dynamic event.
if you can please tell me if you deny that faith leads to salvation/etc
because i only got into this type of discussion originally after several
folks said regeneration proceeds faith. And even claimed if you didnt get
it you were not saved and even called it another gospel.

Well of coarse i dont believe its even part of the gospel...when i share the
gospel i only tell them briefly about the fall and what Jesus did and explain
repentance and faith......so i was alarmed and still am.

Yes or no please. Id sure like to know.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
V. Sovereignty of God in the Actions of Men:

OH....WOW.
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
My "ideology" is from Scripture.

Until you show that it is not Scripture, your statement is without merit.
Oh so you read these things from scripture, made all these deductions, and became the new Calvin 2 without any teachings from the outside, hmm, everything you say and interpret must be true then.
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
okay...i could send you a summary on it, a page or two if you want to. that's all.
but hear what you are saying.
i've been disabled for 10 years. so i have a lot of time to read.
Yes, I'd like the summary but will keep in mind this, "Research on the origins of the Anabaptists has been tainted both by the attempts of their enemies to slander them and the attempts of their supporters to vindicate them" Anabaptist - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My comment about not having enough time to read stuff wasn't a dig against you or anyone who has time, sorry if you took it that, my point was all this extracurricular reading should never come before our desire for the bible and we always need keep in mind that nothing equal to or greater then Bible, even Luther. And that preconceived notions will always get in the way true biblical interpretation.

Peace Zone, love yah too dear.
 

Bookends

Senior Member
Aug 28, 2012
4,225
99
48
"If it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15
 
Jan 11, 2013
2,256
17
0
m
my point was all this extracurricular reading should never come before our desire for the bible and we always need keep in mind that nothing equal to or greater then Bible, even Luther. And that preconceived notions will always get in the way true biblical interpretation.
QUOTE]

Amen Bookends
 
Jan 11, 2013
2,256
17
0
My "ideology" is from Scripture.

Until you show that it is not Scripture, your statement is without merit.
Thing is Elin, the Bible's a big book, and many can say their 'ideaology' is from scripture according to their reasoning of certain passages/verses of scriptures. Wheras another person who can say their 'ideolgy' is from scripture can go to different scriptures and extrapolate them to a conclusion different from your own. Now as we are all humble people we just accpet we see certain things differently from each other don't we:)
I believe scripture is my bottom line, I've never read of Calvin, Luther, Bonhoeffer or any of the other theologians or scholars often mentioned on websites such as these, nor hardly anything of church fathers, but you and I still disagree on much. And I have been to church for overr 30 years.
Where OSAS/free will is concerned its a great topic because there's scripture that can easily be produced to support both sides of the argument, I admit that, yet I have my own personal opinion as to which is nearer the truth obviously.

What to a point put me off the Calvanist approach was a chap on another website, who kept producing Rom 9:15&16, they seemd to be the most important verses in the bible to Him, and he reckoned he was an authority to teach the word, and he would damn people to hell at will. He even reckoned if you didn't accept predestination you were looking to Rome, and he reckoned no one who went to a catholic church could be saved. So at a swoop he condemned over a billion people to hell.Some(and I am not referring to you here) Calvanists have come accross as pretty condemning people to me. And I am far from catholic theology BTW.

As for your threads I have followed. You maybe be suprised to know I was pretty much in agreement with most of what you wrote at first, absolutely, I thought you bput it really well. We could, to a point almost have been soulmates as it were on the subjects. But you can't use what Paul or Christ said about slavery to sin to say that proves man is limited in his will to obey as a Christian, nor can you use Rom8:7&8 to say that endorses that viewpoint, that is where we parted. If I remeber correctly, you did initially give the biblical truth of Christ and Paul's words concerning slavery to sin, but when you linked it to the Christian then having limited will to obey/not sin you are stepping outside of the context they meant.
That Calvanist on the other website, never spoke hardly anything about the Holy Spirit, and when you asked him questions like:
When Paul said we are not under law did he mean the Mosaic law solely or the Mosaic law plus Ten Commandments as well, he wouldn't respond. He knew much of some of the letter of predestination(or his view of it) and fre will, but wasn't so sure as to the heart of the Gospel of Grace, I am in no way speaking of or suggesting of you here, just him.
I am hoping in your discussions you will incorporate the role of the Holy Spirit at some point, for he is key in the sanctification progress as I guess we agree, and ultimately the amount we sin or do not sin depends on the amount of work He is allowed to do in our life.
 
Last edited:

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
if you can please tell me if you deny that faith leads to salvation/etc
because i only got into this type of discussion originally after several
folks said regeneration proceeds faith
. And even claimed if you didnt get
it you were not saved and even called it another gospel.

Well of coarse i dont believe its even part of the gospel...when i share the
gospel i only tell them briefly about the fall and what Jesus did and explain
repentance and faith......so i was alarmed and still am.

Yes or no please. Id sure like to know.
Salvation is through faith, by grace, therefore, salvation is by grace, through faith. (Eph 2:8)

Does that answer your question?
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
V. Sovereignty of God in the Actions of Men:

OH....WOW.
It was clear enough to understand?

A lot of underlying Biblical doctrine is contained in each one of these, and so to keep each one from being a book, they really have to be concise, which can make them difficult to understand.

SUMMATION:

The Biblical doctrine of the sovereignty of God was presented in five parts:

I. Introduction - God's foreknowledge, Biblically God's foreknowledge is determinative (here).
Scripture's presentation of events occurring because God's foreknowledge is determinative (Ac 4:28, 2:23) necessarily means that, because his foreknowledge of is all things, then his foreknowledge of all things is determinative.

Then four objections to the sovereignty of God in the actions of men were Biblically addressed and removed:

II. God's sovereignty violates man's free will (here).

III. It is unjust to hold unregenerate mankind responsible for sin when he is unable to obey God (here).

IV. It is unjust to hold unregenerate mankind guilty of Adam's sin when they did not incure that sin (here).

V. It is unjust to hold unregenerate mankind responsible for their sin when, because of God's operation within their dispositions (hearts), they voluntarily do as God determines (here).
 
C

cfultz3

Guest
God glorifies his mercy by saving only some men, because the glory of his justice is more important than the salvation of all men.
OH WOW INDEED

What I see: it is more important for God to damn souls to show that He was sinned against then to have mercy towards those who come to Him. It is more important to show creation He is a God of revenge instead of pointing gracefully to Jesus.

OH WOW INDEED
 
A

Abiding

Guest
Salvation is through faith, by grace, therefore, salvation is by grace, through faith. (Eph 2:8)

Does that answer your question?
No not even close. I explained in detail. Do you believe God regenerates you then gives you faith.
Yes or No please
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
OH WOW INDEED

What I see: it is more important for God to damn souls to show that He was sinned against then to have mercy towards those who come to Him. It is more important to show creation He is a God of revenge instead of pointing gracefully to Jesus.

OH WOW INDEED
In other words. In this senerio, God proved satan was right all along. But that does not matter, Satan will still be throne in hell judicially charged. Because God is God and it does not matter what is true and what is not.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
Ac 4:27-28 - Those who conspired "against God's holy servant, Jesus, did what
God's purpose determined
before to be done."

In looking at the Biblical meaning of foreknowledge in Ac 4:28, there are two things:

  • the meaning of "determine" in its statement that "God determines beforehand what is done."
  • determine = to fix (to set or place definitely; establish) conclusively or authoritatively; to decide; to ordain
It does not imply that He predetermines all things.
Wrong.

God's foreknowledge is presented as determinative in Ac 4:28.

Therefore, it necessarily follows that, because his foreknowledge is of all things,

then his foreknowledge of all things is a determinative foreknowledge.

God doesn't have two kinds of foreknowledge, one that determines and one that does not,

just as he doesn't have two kinds of omniscience, one that knows all, and one that does not.

That's absurd.








 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Wrong.

God's foreknowledge is presented as determinative in Ac 4:28.

Therefore, it necessarily follows that, because his foreknowledge is of all things,

then his foreknowledge of all things is a determinative foreknowledge.

God doesn't have two kinds of foreknowledge, one that determines and one that does not,

just as he doesn't have two kinds of omniscience, one that knows all, and one that does not.

That's absurd.


And thats Rude.

Acts 4: 28 does not prove your point.

God can easily predetermine things based on foreknowledge.

Imagine how great a leader you would be if you could see into the future, and know all things.

You could chose two people to do something for you. look into the future. See th eone guy does not get it right, the other does. and chose to pick the right person.

You did not force anyone to do anything, you just chose the best man for the Job because you KNEW he would get it done.

This is the way scripture says God works out his will. He can make sure his will is done, and yet still be called a God of love, because he does not force anyone to do anything.

God made us willed people. It is his WILL that we have a will and we make right decisions based on trusting him. If he did not want this, he never would have given us a will to think in the first place.
 
A

Abiding

Guest
Wrong.

God's foreknowledge is presented as determinative in Ac 4:28.

Therefore, it necessarily follows that, because his foreknowledge is of all things,

then his foreknowledge of all things is a determinative foreknowledge.

God doesn't have two kinds of foreknowledge, one that determines and one that does not,

just as he doesn't have two kinds of omniscience, one that knows all, and one that does not.

That's absurd.








Matt 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

Im afraid you limit foreknowledge. Noone would say God isnt determinitive but what basis
does He determine? Noone would say they have the right to question the potter. But
what and why the potter does what He does is given in scripture

Im sure youve seen this scripture before, im still new at this debate. But surely Jesus knew they wouldnt be willing
but why would God have longed....and not simply brought it to pass?
 
Last edited:
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Matt 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings (Gods will), but you were not willing. (mans will)

It is evident man is able to freely chose to go against the WILL of God. and God allows him to do it.. although the consequences of this chosing your own free will (by them) has had long lasting repercussion (not good) which go even till today.