Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

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GreenNnice

Guest
#281
#281
What I was saying above is man's heart is utterly deceitful as Jeremiah the prophet said, BUT , when man SEEKS God with all his heart THEN man will understand.

IF we do not acknowledge God, or, we so not desire God, THEN we will NOT seek God :(

Now, with the Holy Spirit in us now--which ONLY happened when God gave Him to us, who He is our advocate, friend, intercessor, and, the Spirit of Truth, could we UNDERSTAND, by His grace, through faith, our DESIRE to seek Him would bring fruit to our life, including salvation.

If we do not FOLLOW His leading in our life, sister, nile, we are NOT sons and daughters of God :(

We, therefore, MUST seek Him, which is penultimately important that we do this, that we know Him, that we know the Father, that we know the Son, for His sheep KNOW His voice, and, now, in today's times, there's much going on this 'hour' in the corridors of time and IF man cannot SEEK God because he does not know His voice then that would be a travesty beyond compare, it would mean 'death,' with 'it,' God does shew mrcy but not hearing His voice means you can't OBEY His voice.

And, why is it sooo important we know His voice? So we can SEEK Him :) The Lord leads. "...you follow Me."

He is Sovereign, but man makes own righteous choices, which, not so coincidentally, IS the way to salvation. The natural man is gone , morality, gone, man does still have morals, but those with regeneration (born again) are spiritually 'touched' by the hand of God :)
 
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Elin

Banned
#283
Jan 19, 2013
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#283
Abiding said:
Matt 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing.

Im afraid you limit foreknowledge. Noone would say God isnt determinitive but what basis
does He determine? Noone would say they have the right to question the potter. But
what and why the potter does what He does is given in scripture

Im sure youve seen this scripture before, im still new at this debate. But surely Jesus knew they wouldnt be willing
but why would God have longed....and not simply brought it to pass?
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That's an awful lot like what zone reports regarding her family, even though she knows God does not will it, or he would do it.

Why would we be surprised that Jesus feels the same about his Jewish brothers?
He was human, you know.

He longed as a human, but he was here to do the Father's will, not his own.
 
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Elin

Banned
#284
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
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#284
eternally-gratefull said:
Matt 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings (Gods will), but you were not willing. (mans will)

It is evident man is able to freely chose to go against the WILL of God. and God allows him to do it.. although the consequences of this chosing your own free will (by them) has had long lasting repercussion (not good) which go even till today.
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You don't really want me to post another objectionable post on the will of God, do you?
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#285
#285
Elin said:
You don't really want me to post another objectionable post on the will of God, do you?
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what, your version. or the true version?

Are you denying it was gods will to gather Isreal, but they chose to go against his will?? that passages says it plain and simple.. to deny it is to deny the literal word of God.
 
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GreenNnice

Guest
#286
#286
When I say 'man makes own righteous choices, I am saying we are IMPUTED the righteousness of Christ, 'clothed in Christ,' as Galatians says, this, of course, is something done that God does for His will and good pleasure.

We become in right standing with God only because of the grace, yes, grace, God gave us :)


How so we STAY in good standing with God AFTER HAVING CHOSEN Him? Simple.

Through faith, and, not our own faith but His measured to us.
This truth here explains both God's voluntary choice to give us freewill and His sovereign choice to 'measure' what amount an individual gets.

What's important to note, ALL humans are given a measure of faith.'

We are to believe in Him with that faith. That is the truth of John 3:16 , in a nutshell, right squirrel ;)
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#287
#287
Elin said:
That's an awful lot like what zone reports regarding her family, even though she knows God does not will it, or he would do it.

Why would we be surprised that Jesus feels the same about his Jewish brothers?
He was human, you know.

He longed as a human, but he was here to do the Father's will, not his own.
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so Jesus was not God?

Jesus said how often. he di dnot speak of just while he was hear on earth, he spoke of the whole Time Isreal was a nation. he ocntinually wanted to be their God. but they continually went against his wishes..
 
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Abiding

Guest
#288
#288
Elin said:
I don't do "yes or no," because that means I have to accept their premise, which I may not agree with.

I believe it all happens at the same time.

The above Scripture states that salvation is by grace, through faith.
So grace is the first cause here.

The second cause is faith.

"Second cause" means it is the vehicle through which the first cause effects (makes happen) the outcome, which is salvation.

So I understand the above Scripture to be stating the order is: grace--->faith--->salvation.

So the question is: what is grace?
Is it regeneration?

If it is, then my answer is "yes."

What do you think grace is?
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In that context as written a few verses earlier "grace" is His mercy. "by grace ye are saved" v5
His mercy was shown in the "riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus"v7

So grace is "Jesus Christ" jn1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

Ill agree that grace comes first
then faith applied to that grace(In Jesus Christ/the gospel)
then salvation occurs(regeneration)

No grace is not regeneration although regeneration is a by grace.
Grace is Jesus Christ and the "free gift" Not of works.

If you dont hold to man being regenerated before faith then you cant hold to limited atonement.

I have to get to work. Later if i want ill talk about the word "cause"
 
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GreenNnice

Guest
#289
#289
Elin said:
That's an awful lot like what zone reports regarding her family, even though she knows God does not will it, or he would do it.

Why would we be surprised that Jesus feels the same about his Jewish brothers?
He was human, you know.

He longed as a human, but he was here to do the Father's will, not his own.
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God knows family is tough, He proved it with Jesus, His Son, by Heleaving His hometown , to go preach elsewhere.

Nothing rocket science about some of our family NEVER going to come to Christ, however, we are to HAVE FAITH, becausevof His grace given us to live forever with Him, we are to GO out and witness on our own accord, SEEKING Him as we go forth, and, He WILL provide the 'increase' as 1Cor. 3 states.

Sorry, I'm talking to no one in particular, just you, nile, and, I nic everybody, MY WAY, get over it, I kind of like my nic for you, nile, it flows like a river :D


I think a neat story is my wednesday night bible teacher who came to Christ, and, met the Holy Spirit thereafter and subsequejtly preached of Christ to his 16 grandkids. All saved now :)
 
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Abiding

Guest
#292
#292
Elin said:
That's an awful lot like what zone reports regarding her family, even though she knows God does not will it, or he would do it.

Why would we be surprised that Jesus feels the same about his Jewish brothers?
He was human, you know.

He longed as a human, but he was here to do the Father's will, not his own.
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Thats trash saying that God would do it if He willed it. Honestly what a narrow view of both God and scripture.
And what a cop-out bringing up Jesus humanity there. Not only was He a prophet. He said he that has seen me
has seen the Father.

He also said He 'Never" speaks except what the Father gives Him. You stepped in do-doo there.
Also He could not have been talking from His human side as you imply look at the context..it is not
referring to His life on earth. Thats simply a statement that should embarrass.

God says He will do all His will. If His will is to save those only who receive it than thats what going to
happen. Your idea is just that, an idea. And really, not a very good one. Or one that honors Gods
revealed character.
 
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GreenNnice

Guest
#294
#294
Me, too, off to work.

God though gave every MAN a measure of faith.

It is up to man to put that faith in God.

He CAN put that 'faith' in whatever or whoever he wants, golden calves even ;) , but God gives us our faith for a reason: to have FAITH in His having chosen us to be with Him in heaven. :)
 
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Elin

Banned
#295
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
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#295
GreenNnice said:
These ^^^^are pretty harsh claim's against your prescribed doctrine, nile.

What I thought about Hitler (you brought him up to eg, sister, I'm just going with it :) )
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Are you addressing this to me?

You've got me mixed up with someone else.
 
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Abiding

Guest
#296
#296
To think i read this as a comfort. That it is a comfort to see my family
perish because God has created them to show His justice and wrath and sovereignty.
As an alternative to them refusing Gods provision for salvation.
Oh well im not the sharpest knife in the drawer:p
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#297
#297
Elin said:
;
They're not happy when you disagree, and they're not happy when you agree.

Reminds me of Lk 7:32, children who are not happy with a joyful game, or a mournful one.
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no, we are perfectly happy to agree to disagree..

we call out people when they show pride, and instead of agreeing to disagree., just attack the other person.
 
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Elin

Banned
#298
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
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#298
Abiding said:
Thats not true at all. But its what youve done taking a small statement
from Romans 9 then applied it to a different context...naughty naughty
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I've addressed your interpretation of Ro 9 and 11, here, if you would like to address it.
 
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Abiding

Guest
#299
#299
eternally-gratefull said:
so Jesus was not God?

Jesus said how often. he di dnot speak of just while he was hear on earth, he spoke of the whole Time Isreal was a nation. he ocntinually wanted to be their God. but they continually went against his wishes..
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That is the whole reason for Romans 9......God whats up? didnt you will Israel to do what you asked?
Well it failed. Paul say no. My ultimate will will never fail.

Just like Pharaoh in his hard heart i will harden it even more to cause the world to see my glory.
And Israel in their hardened heart i will raise them up for the same.

But He also tells us that His will was NOT the choices either made.
And that they are simply clay, and He can use people as He pleases.
 
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Elin

Banned
#300
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
#300
mark54 said:
What is said in one context does not necesssarily limit its application in another context.

Then give me a biblical reference to being a slave to sin for the Christian that states their will not to sin is limited.

Is it possible your insight is limited by your unorthodox theology?

What unorthodox theology according to the bible?

Not only possible, but actual.
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Your understanding of the terms of the discussion is inadequate, so we can't really communicate.
Terms = "will not to sin" and "unorthodox"

Actually I have never once heard your theology preached from the pulpit
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For that I am grateful.

Because it is strong meat, only for the mature (Heb 5:11-14).
 
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