Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man
- Thread starter Elin
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but....not everyone was given the Law. and not everyone heard of Moses.
what did we do about all those gentiles paul said were lost, without hope and without God in the world?
are all these a gift of God?
that's the question.
i know Ephesians isn't the passage that proves faith is agfit - we already did this.
but you agreed elsewhere that it is a gift, and that so is salvation.
since all men are not saved, does the grace part NOT attached to the passages about faith and salvation have any real bearing the discussion? this is what i don't get.
if it's ultimately salvation by faith, why separate grace from that equation and try to move over to the end conclusion about men who stay condemned? i don't get it.
if the subject is salvation what difference does it make?
if men are saved, it will because of by grace, through faith.
i don't see why the scissoring.
i'll bookmark this because it seems to be the crux of it.
i guess it's really super-charged responses to certain terms used.
which is fine.
just not sure if they really define the ultimate discussion.
have a good workday abiding.
Romans 8:28
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
sunergeó: to work together
Original Word: συνεργέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: sunergeó
Phonetic Spelling: (soon-erg-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I work together
Definition: I cooperate with, work together.
i guess this is synergy.
but it says God causes
it's still Him doing it.
what did we do about all those gentiles paul said were lost, without hope and without God in the world?
are all these a gift of God?
that's the question.
i know Ephesians isn't the passage that proves faith is agfit - we already did this.
but you agreed elsewhere that it is a gift, and that so is salvation.
since all men are not saved, does the grace part NOT attached to the passages about faith and salvation have any real bearing the discussion? this is what i don't get.
if it's ultimately salvation by faith, why separate grace from that equation and try to move over to the end conclusion about men who stay condemned? i don't get it.
if the subject is salvation what difference does it make?
if men are saved, it will because of by grace, through faith.
i don't see why the scissoring.
i'll bookmark this because it seems to be the crux of it.
i guess it's really super-charged responses to certain terms used.
which is fine.
just not sure if they really define the ultimate discussion.
have a good workday abiding.
Romans 8:28
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
sunergeó: to work together
Original Word: συνεργέω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: sunergeó
Phonetic Spelling: (soon-erg-eh'-o)
Short Definition: I work together
Definition: I cooperate with, work together.
i guess this is synergy.
but it says God causes
it's still Him doing it.
you....have....got.....to....mmmmm
RIGHT!
Elin...you should STOP posting because you're not covering the Trinity concurrent to these other discussions!!!
Mark doesn't believe in the Trinity anyways.
he's just uncomfortable with God's Sovereignty.
Mark why don't you go start a thread on the Holy Spirit?
RIGHT!
Elin...you should STOP posting because you're not covering the Trinity concurrent to these other discussions!!!
Mark doesn't believe in the Trinity anyways.
he's just uncomfortable with God's Sovereignty.
Mark why don't you go start a thread on the Holy Spirit?
C
Whenit comes to His salvational plan through Christ, all things wereforeordained to happen exactly as they happened to His Christ. Thereis no argument there. But, to take that pre-determination we know asprophecy concerning the Son and say that that pre-determinationincludes a pre-determined destination for souls would cancel out notonly faith in Christ but the necessity of having judgment. It wouldalso propose that, by Christ's dying, His brought death and notlife.
If you were to set three objects in arow, could you, by the foreknowledge of knowing that the subject willpick one, have determined that he would pick a certain object.Knowing that someone will pick an object does not determine that youknow which one they will pick. God's determinative foreknowledge isthat He brought about the Gospel exactly as He determined it would bebrought about.
Foreknowledge is knowingbeforehand. The reason why God knew beforehand what would happen toHis Son is because He planed it before the foundation of the world.God knows beforehand who will be saved, and if He were to haddetermined who will be saved, then again, faith is not faith, but aforced implantation against someone's will, and in the end, forcingthem to believe in something they would had not believe in the firstplace. It would seem quite contrary to Scripture to say that if oneis foreordained for salvation or death, that can only end in statingthat one is not held accountable for his deeds, and again, wouldnullify the need for judgment.
What would seem to be absurd would beimplying that one's faith does not matter, because, in the end, onewill end up where they were foreordained to be. But, on the otherhand, Scripture says that 'whosoever believes in the Son' shallreceive everlasting life. God gives hope to the world through HisSon, this doctrine of yours says quite the opposite.
If you were to set three objects in arow, could you, by the foreknowledge of knowing that the subject willpick one, have determined that he would pick a certain object.Knowing that someone will pick an object does not determine that youknow which one they will pick. God's determinative foreknowledge isthat He brought about the Gospel exactly as He determined it would bebrought about.
Foreknowledge is knowingbeforehand. The reason why God knew beforehand what would happen toHis Son is because He planed it before the foundation of the world.God knows beforehand who will be saved, and if He were to haddetermined who will be saved, then again, faith is not faith, but aforced implantation against someone's will, and in the end, forcingthem to believe in something they would had not believe in the firstplace. It would seem quite contrary to Scripture to say that if oneis foreordained for salvation or death, that can only end in statingthat one is not held accountable for his deeds, and again, wouldnullify the need for judgment.
What would seem to be absurd would beimplying that one's faith does not matter, because, in the end, onewill end up where they were foreordained to be. But, on the otherhand, Scripture says that 'whosoever believes in the Son' shallreceive everlasting life. God gives hope to the world through HisSon, this doctrine of yours says quite the opposite.
E
How about,, lets see what you believe, And if you don't Agree to disagree like so many in here do.
When we puff ourselves up. Our message (true or false) gets lost.. and we lose our ability to speak and bring light to Gods word.
If I was a new believer coming in here and looking for answers, and saw people talk like, "I am mature so I can see truth, You can't, Your wrong, Your making things up, Non Responsive. Go here your question was answered, You are asked 20 times to answer yes or no to a question, and you beat around the bush instead of answering.. You claim other people are beating their wife, Etc Etc Etc.. I would not even look to you for answers, I would think you are to proud to learn anything,, Thus how can you teach anyone anything.
When we puff ourselves up. Our message (true or false) gets lost.. and we lose our ability to speak and bring light to Gods word.
If I was a new believer coming in here and looking for answers, and saw people talk like, "I am mature so I can see truth, You can't, Your wrong, Your making things up, Non Responsive. Go here your question was answered, You are asked 20 times to answer yes or no to a question, and you beat around the bush instead of answering.. You claim other people are beating their wife, Etc Etc Etc.. I would not even look to you for answers, I would think you are to proud to learn anything,, Thus how can you teach anyone anything.
E
I do also. The moment we place trust in God, is the very same moment we are justified, is the very same moment we then are regenerate because of our forgiveness of sin, which caused our spiritual death in the first place.
The problem comes when we must be regenerate to have faith (regeneration precedes salvation) in this senerios. regeneration must be for a time before one has faith, because he has to think of what he has now been given the ability to understand before he makes his choice to have faith. Even if you think all who are regenerate will have faith, this would not matter.
The problem comes when we must be regenerate to have faith (regeneration precedes salvation) in this senerios. regeneration must be for a time before one has faith, because he has to think of what he has now been given the ability to understand before he makes his choice to have faith. Even if you think all who are regenerate will have faith, this would not matter.
E
lol.. And this is supposed to speak about what I said?
If I have said something against ellin she does not believe, she has every right to correct. me.. If I ignore it, it is on me..
You know. Like the mellinnial reign of Christ were we are under mosaic law and glorifying Isreal type of stuff?? Which you state I believe., but is far from the truth.
If I have said something against ellin she does not believe, she has every right to correct. me.. If I ignore it, it is on me..
You know. Like the mellinnial reign of Christ were we are under mosaic law and glorifying Isreal type of stuff?? Which you state I believe., but is far from the truth.
Ac 2:48 was not prophecy, it was an after-the-event explanation.
You gotta' stop basing your theology on what your erroneious human thinking regards as the necessary consequences, and start basing it on what the text actually states.
Your notion of divine foreknowledge is too human, and does not agree with what it means in every place that it is used in Scripture.
You gotta' stop basing your theology on what your erroneious human thinking regards as the necessary consequences, and start basing it on what the text actually states.
Your notion of divine foreknowledge is too human, and does not agree with what it means in every place that it is used in Scripture.