Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

[zone]

I dont think anyone is having doubt about that truth Kath. That man has been condemned, or
not capable to save himself or even have a heart for God on his own.. That is just his condition
and standing.

But that isnt the problem here. We talked about that before. All good things come from above
so yes we should consider faith a gift. That still doesnt mean its given after regeneration.
Thats just the contention of some to build limited atonement on.

Its not a matter of what God "can" do. Its a matter of what scripture is saying He "is" doing.

i understand mike.
and you have really good points.


but here's my issue with this:

ultimately i see two things going on that i really am baffled about why they are even involved.

one is the term limited atonement.
it's no secret this is a hot button issue.
nevertheless, i don't have to adopt calvinism or attend a c-church or even fellowship with calvinists if i don't want to.

the simple thing is, the Atonement is absolutely sufficient to accomplish everything God wills, for all He saves.

it really has to be that simple for me. and i don't have to have anything to do with TULIP.

the second thing is:
faith after regeneration or not, again, in the bigger picture, if faith is a gift, and if saving faith is saving, and those who are saved are regenerated, i don't understand the problem.

i don't.
only the regenerate will be saved. right?
Jesus said so.

so i am not sure about possibly jettisoning a whole bunch of stuff i know just by reading is true, because of concerns over TULIP.

is the problem that we don't like the idea that God will only save some?
because at the end of the day, that's what we are told.

and it is really clear that He said He will accomplish everything He wills to.
so, i guess that's why i'm a Lutheran.

hey....are you still at verk?

 

[Elin]

Your answering questions in a roundabout way as to not really answer them.

I dunno' why you think the following was not a clear answer.

Do you think regeneration comes before faith?

Yes or No please.

Only logically (do I see regeneration coming first).

I think (in reality,) rebirth, sonship, faith, forgiveness, indwelling of the Holy Spirit are all one dynamic event.

I assume you want the truth about what I think, but the truth about what I think doesn't fit within your parameters.
That's not my fault.

But remember that doctrines have implications and they need to be
forthright and accountable to the word of God as a whole.
Putting verses here and their to formulate a theory is not called "meat"

Agreed, which is why I don't do it.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Well my Bro Abiding.

I think we can figure she will not answer.. Thats all we need to know.. Don;t work to hard Bro!

 

[zone]

Im on lunch break...good questions but will
look at this post again after the work day.

k bud...whatcha working on?

 

[zone]

No, she said she thinks they all happen the same time, The sequence is only logic.

What is the sequence?

We still do not know what she thinks. it is like abiding says, She keeps answering in a roundabout way without really answering.

but is this the Inquistion or does she get to actually present a full case EG?
look at all the work. and it's her own.
i think it's trashy jumping all over it.

you don't have to agree.
i know you don't.

i see more round about from everybody BUT Elin. me included.
i don't see anybody more up front, period.
she's not blabbering she's presenting scripture.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

but is this the Inquistion or does she get to actually present a full case EG?
look at all the work. and it's her own.
i think it's trashy jumping all over it.

you don't have to agree.
i know you don't.

i see more round about from everybody BUT Elin. me included.
i don't see anybody more up front, period.
she's not blabbering she's presenting scripture.

How can I agree or disagree? I have no clue what her standing on the question is.. It makes a huge difference.

I have discussed this with many hard lined calvanists which say alot of the same things she does. They gave the same answer she did. But they stated quite clearly. They believe regeneration still comes first. (the logical order) .thus we had a starting point with where to discuss.

But we have no idea what elin thinks, because she will not answer. thus we have no basis of discussion.

 

[zone]

It makes a huge difference.

in terms of this thread and this subject, explain what the huge difference is.

Re: Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

 

[cfultz3]

still cannot figure out why my words are being bunched-up...sorry

In Scripture, God'sforeknowledge is not knowing in advance what men will do, and thenbasing his actions on theirs, it is knowing in advance what he willdo.

No argument here. So, in His Sovereignty, He determined that salvation will be by faith and it happened. But, to take that determination and say that He has determined who shall be saved or doomed, instead of saying, "we are saved by believing in the One He send (God's work which He requires of us)", negates the purpose of having sent Him, in that He was sent to reconciliate those who want to return to a fellowship with God to God.

Ac 15:13 -"known to the Lord for ages is his work."

How do you get that out of :
Act15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying,Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

Ac 2:33 - "God's set purpose and foreknowledge."

How do you get that out of:
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the righ thand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Isa 37:26 - "Long ago I ordained it; in days of old I planned it; now I have brought it to pass"

God fulfilling His purposed willthrough man does not mandate that all things have beenper-determined. What it does show is that God in His foreknowledgelead them to do what He purposed. God purposed Moses to speak, butMoses chose not to, but rather asked God to send someone who would dothe speaking. Now, if God purposed all things to happen and if Mosesdenied it, then could it not be concluded that Moses thawed God'spurpose? Which we all know that no one can do such. That would leadto me to say that we come to God willfully and not as aper-determined subject of a will forced on us.

Ro 9:22 -"prepared for (God's) destruction"

Rom 9:18 Tells us that He will havemercy on whom He will have mercy and whom He will, He will harden.And if we go to verse 24, we see that He is speaking about the JewsHe hardened and oppose to those who are in Christ (v25), whom He hasmercy (grace). We understand that they were harkened because theywere stiff-necked, not just because God wanted it that way. It wouldseem fit to say that God suffered with them for so long that Hedecided to call another people His people, namely, those in Christthrough grace, as opposed to those of the Law.


If we would, when we turn to Mat23:31-33, we see that they were not prepared by God solely fordestruction but that they themselves were filling up the measure oftheir fathers, which was having killed the prophets and would fill iteven more by killing the Prophet who spoke this to them: JesusChrist. So, they brought it onto themselves and it was not aper-planned destruction from God.

1Pe 1:20 -"Christ was foreknown before the creation of the world, but wasrevealed in these last times."

And so, God knew beforehand that Christwas needed to bring salvation through faith. This does not qualifyGod having per-determined one's destiny, but having known a need fora Savior.

 

[zone]

But we have no idea what elin thinks, because she will not answer. thus we have no basis of discussion.

that's odd...because i don't know what she "thinks"
but i know what's she posting.
and i can understand what that is saying.

once again...no basis for discussion?
what a joke.

look at all the work.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

that's odd...because i don't know what she "thinks"
but i know what's she posting.
and i can understand what that is saying.

once again...no basis for discussion?
what a joke.

look at all the work.

look at all the work?

I would believe she believes in regeneration first. And it looked like Abiding thought so too. And she got on him for saying it..

why is she afraid to say it?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

in terms of this thread and this subject, explain what the huge difference is.

Re: Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

Whats the huge difference?

Are people made alive before their sin (which causes death) forgiven or is it not?

Is faith a work of us or God

if regeneration must come first. And faith is a work, Then are people who do not agree still saved, even though they had faith?

Which is the question abiding keeps answering, and to be honest, he got me thinking, I would like to know also.

 

[zone]

Whats the huge difference?

Are people made alive before their sin (which causes death) forgiven or is it not?

Is faith a work of us or God

if regeneration must come first. And faith is a work, Then are people who do not agree still saved, even though they had faith?

Which is the question abiding keeps answering, and to be honest, he got me thinking, I would like to know also.

faith is a work?
huh?

people who do not agree with what?
that they wanted to be saved? huh?

Are people made alive before their sin (which causes death) forgiven or is it not?

this makes no sense at all....so i have no idea what your objection is.
anyways....maybe you'll formulate your alternative.
who knows.

 

[zone]

look at all the work?

I would believe she believes in regeneration first. And it looked like Abiding thought so too. And she got on him for saying it..

why is she afraid to say it?

so what if she did?
are all men going to be saved or not?

that's the question on the table. and free will.
that's what people aren't liking - their free will thing got debunked.
God in His Time Machine seeing who would choose Him.

saving faith is saving faith.
God will save who He wills.

no clue what the issue is.
*yawn*

peach Christ Crucified and see what happens.
simple.

 

[Elin]

look at all the work?

I would believe she believes in regeneration first. And it looked like Abiding thought so too. And she got on him for saying it..

why is she afraid to say it?

I can hear you!

 

[Elin]

No argument here. So, in His Sovereignty, He determined that salvation will be by faith and it happened. But, to take that determination and say that He has determined who shall be saved or doomed, instead of saying, "we are saved by believing in the One He send (God's work which He requires of us)", negates the purpose of having sent Him, in that He was sent to reconciliate
those who want to return to a fellowship with God to God.

You are not thinking Biblically.

Unregenerate man does not want fellowship with God.

How do you get that out of :
Act15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying,Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

Typo. . .should be Ac 15:18.

First mistake I ever made.

How do you get that out of:
Act 2:33 Therefore being by the righ thand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Typo #2. . .should be Ac 2:23.

The earth's axis must be shifting.

That would leadto me to say that we come to God willfully and not as a pre-determined subject of a will forced on us.

You've failed to grasp the Biblical meaning of free will.

Review it here.

Rom 9:18 Tells us that He will havemercy on whom He will have mercy and whom He will, He will harden.And if we go to verse 24, we see that He is speaking about the JewsHe hardened and oppose to those who are in Christ (v25), whom He hasmercy (grace).

No, if you go to Ex 33:19, you will see that it is part of the name of God,
and Paul uses it as proof of God's right to dispense mercy as he chooses,
to vindicate God's justice in his election of Isaac and Jacob only on the basis of his sovereign freedom.

Review the discussion here.

 

[Elin]

Whats the huge difference?

Are people made alive before their sin (which causes death) forgiven or is it not?

Is faith a work of us or God

if regeneration must come first. And faith is a work, Then are people who do not agree still saved, even though they had faith?

Which is the question abiding keeps answering, and to be honest, he got me thinking, I would like to know also.

I was not given a choice between regeneration and forgiveness.

I was given a choice between regeneration and faith.

And I will restate.

That's all just human logic.

I believe the reality is all of them are one dynamic event.

 

[cfultz3]

You are not thinking Biblically. Unregenerate man does not want fellowship with God.

I am sure you are not saying that what I said was not Biblical. Perhaps, you meant that I am not thinking the same as you?
Anyway, understanding that 'regenerated' means 'having been born again as a child of God', then how can one be born as a child of God if they were 'not a child of God' before that regeneration? That is, one must first be unregenerated before they can be regenerated. So then, how does one who is unregenerated become regenerated: by hearkening to the conviction of of the Spirit to turn to Jesus. It is within the reasoning of man to choose good or evil, to choose life or death, to choose God or self. Much in the same way that Adam and Even chose evil over good, disobedience over obedience, death over life. We are made in the image of God, we are beings of reasoning.

You've failed to grasp the Biblical meaning of free will. Review it here.

Perhaps, you meant that I failed to understand freewill as you do?
Freewill = choose you this day between good or evil, life or death...Choose you this day Grace or the Law, choose you this day God's way or your way. Jesus chose good over evil by doing the Father's will. He chose life over death in His temptation. He chose the grace found in God over the Law as a means to salvation. Freewill = God, you are my Lord. I will come and follow you.

No, if you go to Ex 33:19, you will see that it is part of the name of God, and Paul uses it as proof of God's right to dispense mercy as he chooses, to vindicate God's justice in his election of Isaac and Jacob only on the basis of his sovereign freedom. Review the discussion here.

What is a part of God's name?
And the reason He chose those in Christ to be His people is because the Jews killed all the prophets He sent, even the Prophet of all prophets. And God chose those in Christ to be given mercy through the act of salvation through faith. If this grace is not the mercy of God, then I do not know what is.

 

[Abiding]

I dunno' why you think the following was not a clear answer.


I assume you want the truth about what I think, but the truth about what I think doesn't fit within your parameters.
That's not my fault.


Agreed, which is why I don't do it.

I dont have any parameters for your truth. I was just wanting to know.
But i wont any longer.

All one dynamic event? Ill accept that as your answer.
Would have been easier to just have said "yes" but
i understand a guy can expect too much.

 

[Elin]

Must go, have an early start in the morning, you all get a break from me for a week

You know Elin, I've been wondering why you never put a certain scripture before me to try and back up what you have been saying, I guess you thought it may just be a bit to hard to defend if you did

No, I think you have an inadequate understanding of the terms of the discussion, and therefore we cannot communicate.

A particular Scripture will not fix that, for discussion of it would only be futile.

 

[GreenNnice]

No, I think you have an inadequate understanding of the terms of the discussion, and therefore we cannot communicate.

A particular Scripture will not fix that, for discussion of it would only be futile.

Boooooooooooooo.


Booo, nilE .

Have I put the fear of God in ya yet?



Boo-boo.


How about that time?

Let me shift my axis (green re-situates his butt on the seat).


Boo-boo-booo.

But your Lordship Salvation doctrine is a skeeery, skeery jig-a-ma-lig.

YOU , in your whole presentation, hav e forgotten the MERCY of God, that comes, often, asva complement or aside to His grace given man who makes a boo-boo.



God forgives us. That truth right there trashes your argument of 'external constraints' within voluntary choices of man.

How do you and Hebrews get along, nilE? The book, not the people

Can you HEAR me now?

Ohzone, you often where blinders when you talk to people who are speaking against GRACE AND MERCY given mankind, that comes from.freewill choice boo-boos that God forgives of. And, forgives not just once but 70x7 times....

He practices what He preaches, doesn't He.
;;;;;;;;;/;;;;;;;;;;;;

Excellejt, cee, way to rebuke those 'choice' boo-boos of nilE.

Biblical free will is simple.

I am the way, the truth, the life; no man comes to the Father but through Me.'

Simple. Peeeesh what, want more.

Jesus wept.


Renmember, what Jesus did, God WAS doing, too. Right????

Does man need the Holy Spirit to be His Helper or his dictator?