Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man
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what do you mean "one choosing to do (what) with (what) faith"?
faith is for a reason - to believe God.
to believe the Testimony about and of Jesus.
if we believe Him, we will read what He said we are to do.
we'll know what He wants us to do, because He already told us.
maybe i didn't understand your issue.
faith is for a reason - to believe God.
to believe the Testimony about and of Jesus.
if we believe Him, we will read what He said we are to do.
we'll know what He wants us to do, because He already told us.
maybe i didn't understand your issue.
C
Elin, are you really going to go there. You know that I am not talking about my faith. Anyone who reads that can see that it was a hypothetical position one would face if they were told about limited atonement. It is not my logic at play here, but the conclusion of limited atonement at play. How else can it be concluded!!! Limited atonement would tell someone that Christ did not die for them but for His pre-chosen ones.
C
Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
When we were unable to find a way for salvation by our own works, Christ died for us. It was by a gracious act of God that we receive salvation through faith and not through the Law, seeing that the Law justified no one.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
So then, let us die to the flesh in obeying it and obey from the spirit. If we try to obey by the flesh, we cannot please God, seeing that those who are spiritual do mind the things from the Spirit. And they of the flesh, fleshly things.
What am I missing?
When we were unable to find a way for salvation by our own works, Christ died for us. It was by a gracious act of God that we receive salvation through faith and not through the Law, seeing that the Law justified no one.
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
So then, let us die to the flesh in obeying it and obey from the spirit. If we try to obey by the flesh, we cannot please God, seeing that those who are spiritual do mind the things from the Spirit. And they of the flesh, fleshly things.
What am I missing?
"Without strength" = "powerless," spiritual powerlessness
"unable" = spiritual powerlessness
"cannot be subject to (obey)) the law = spiritual powerlessness
"cannot please God = spiritual powerlessness
"faith I had"
"my faith"
You are missing the spiritual powerlessness of unregenerate mankind to do anything that pleases God, including to believe.
That causes you to cobble together the inconsistency of: "your" faith and "no necessity to live out 'your' faith in election."
Faith in the elect is a gift of God, not something the unregenerate has the power to do.
And if you have the faith that is the gift of God, you do not think the way your fallen human logic dictates; i.e., no need to live it out because it doesn't matter.
Those in God's family don't think that way.
That's pure fallen human logic talking.
That is what you are missing.
"unable" = spiritual powerlessness
"cannot be subject to (obey)) the law = spiritual powerlessness
"cannot please God = spiritual powerlessness
"faith I had"
"my faith"
You are missing the spiritual powerlessness of unregenerate mankind to do anything that pleases God, including to believe.
That causes you to cobble together the inconsistency of: "your" faith and "no necessity to live out 'your' faith in election."
Faith in the elect is a gift of God, not something the unregenerate has the power to do.
And if you have the faith that is the gift of God, you do not think the way your fallen human logic dictates; i.e., no need to live it out because it doesn't matter.
Those in God's family don't think that way.
That's pure fallen human logic talking.
That is what you are missing.
A
I agree with most all you have taught. Limited atonement is still not settling with me yet.
Although i find since im prolly 99% monergists maybe im wrong about the 1%. Cant sit on
uncle finnys lap...so im working on that.
I totally dont like your use of Romans 9. But have a truckload of clearer verses that
show God is sovereign and decreed all before creation....etc. So in otherwords most,
not all scriptural use i like. And most, not all conclusions come out the same. So far.
Ill admit i could have taken a cc break to work out these issues that i didnt know i had.
And i also understand im being highly critical of all you write at least lately. And thats
gotta cause something im sure. But im trying to be objective and see the points being made.
Oh i sure do agree that "everything" is controlled by Gods will. Im just a tad unsure
exactly what that entails at the moment. And i truley do believe at this point that both
sides are pushing some individual scriptures past their intent.
I often just have to dive in and let the chips fall where they may sometimes.
If i turn out to be dead wrong in some areas...it wont be the first time. Thats why
i serve up treats and beverages to those im a bother to sad huh? but true!
Although i find since im prolly 99% monergists maybe im wrong about the 1%. Cant sit on
uncle finnys lap...so im working on that.
I totally dont like your use of Romans 9. But have a truckload of clearer verses that
show God is sovereign and decreed all before creation....etc. So in otherwords most,
not all scriptural use i like. And most, not all conclusions come out the same. So far.
Ill admit i could have taken a cc break to work out these issues that i didnt know i had.
And i also understand im being highly critical of all you write at least lately. And thats
gotta cause something im sure. But im trying to be objective and see the points being made.
Oh i sure do agree that "everything" is controlled by Gods will. Im just a tad unsure
exactly what that entails at the moment. And i truley do believe at this point that both
sides are pushing some individual scriptures past their intent.
I often just have to dive in and let the chips fall where they may sometimes.
If i turn out to be dead wrong in some areas...it wont be the first time. Thats why
i serve up treats and beverages to those im a bother to
sad huh? but true!
A
Elin, Kath threw a speedball across the plate
giving a Bob Dewaay paper. And by definition im a 5 solas reformed...haha
but silly me. I didnt know the definitions. And feel a tad foolish calling myself
a theological name when i didnt know what they have previously pumped into it.
Synergy was only a word and a bible one at that. But apparently it now adays
means more. So ill have to change hats. help me pick
giving a Bob Dewaay paper. And by definition im a 5 solas reformed...haha
but silly me. I didnt know the definitions. And feel a tad foolish calling myself
a theological name when i didnt know what they have previously pumped into it.
Synergy was only a word and a bible one at that. But apparently it now adays
means more. So ill have to change hats. help me pick
Ah! I see we are moving in a certain direction. Now if God would ONLY give us a SHEPEARD to keep the whole flock together. Some person God gave ALL the wisdom too to lead us in His Word, to the FULL knowledge of HIS Truth and Will.
If we were ALL taken from a riverbed, on a dry season, by the clay collector. And this lump of clay was carried to God's workshop for His stock. Now God takes that ckay and start to make TWO types of vessels, from the SAME lump. That piece of clay that was in His hands when He made you, did you have ANY input to what HE will make of you?
Can ANY man tell God what to do? Could Jesus HIS begotten Son tell Him what to do? If even the Words of Jesus was NOT HIS OWN, But that of the Father that sent Him.... Just how in detail did God plan and predetermined EVERYTHING here on earth? Bookends asked a good queation about how God will judge a person, if HE predetermined where that person will go. I will answer with Scripture.... And I can only pray he understands the answer.
The answer is... All sinners are already judged, the Prince of this world is already judged. Did Jesus not say sinners will DIE in theiir sin, and that the son of perdition HE could not keep, in God, but the other's HE DID. Father I pray for them I PRAY NOT FOR THE WORLD.... Why would God have Jesus say that?
Why would there be some, THAT GOD NEVER KNEW? Can God create something that HE NEVER KNEW? I have given a lot of answers that no person has responded too. I even asked questions but it seems nobody is willing to answer them.
One of these questions is.... What is the difference between these two babies.... One is born where one parent is a believer, and that baby is born holy! The other is born where the parents are not believers and the baby is born UNCLEAN!
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
One baby is HOLY, and the other is UNCLEAN? One vessel God makes out of clay is for HONOUR, the other for DISHONOUR? And what baby has the say to what parents will he be born too? What vessel tells the potter what to make him. Oh you foolish people, who can council GOD? I certainly CANNOT! If i could I would have TOLD Him to make me holy! Wonder if He will do it?
What if I ask? What if I do as HE says... And ASK HIM FOR WISDOM, but I HAVE TO ASK IN FAITH... Apperently it is UNCONDITIONAL, as long as I ask in FAITH! Where do I get this FATIH from.. so it is conditional AGAIN! Man if only I understood!
All I know about God is this.... HE IS CHANGING ME! Why and to what I DO NOT KNOW, and do you want to know the TRUTH... I DO NOT CARE! HE WILL DO AS HE WILLS, I HAVE NO SAY! But I TRUST HIM!
One thing I do HOPE, not will HOPE... I have no will, let alone a free one... HAHAHA if people had wills, there would be more destinations than HELL and HEAVEN.... there would be more WAYS that the WIDE ONE TO HELL, and the NARROW one to heaven.
There are ONLY TWO ways, and TWO wills, we do EITHER of the two. Every action you do, like me RIGHT NOW, I only do what God wants me to do, like type this message, or I do what Satan wants me to do, and that is let us GOOGLE some evil sights, or whatever other lame thing HE WANTS (WILLS).
No man EVER had a will, but a CHOICE TO DO ONE OF TWO WILLS.... Adam could EAT, or NOT EAT! FINISH!
If we were ALL taken from a riverbed, on a dry season, by the clay collector. And this lump of clay was carried to God's workshop for His stock. Now God takes that ckay and start to make TWO types of vessels, from the SAME lump. That piece of clay that was in His hands when He made you, did you have ANY input to what HE will make of you?
Can ANY man tell God what to do? Could Jesus HIS begotten Son tell Him what to do? If even the Words of Jesus was NOT HIS OWN, But that of the Father that sent Him.... Just how in detail did God plan and predetermined EVERYTHING here on earth? Bookends asked a good queation about how God will judge a person, if HE predetermined where that person will go. I will answer with Scripture.... And I can only pray he understands the answer.
The answer is... All sinners are already judged, the Prince of this world is already judged. Did Jesus not say sinners will DIE in theiir sin, and that the son of perdition HE could not keep, in God, but the other's HE DID. Father I pray for them I PRAY NOT FOR THE WORLD.... Why would God have Jesus say that?
Why would there be some, THAT GOD NEVER KNEW? Can God create something that HE NEVER KNEW? I have given a lot of answers that no person has responded too. I even asked questions but it seems nobody is willing to answer them.
One of these questions is.... What is the difference between these two babies.... One is born where one parent is a believer, and that baby is born holy! The other is born where the parents are not believers and the baby is born UNCLEAN!
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
One baby is HOLY, and the other is UNCLEAN? One vessel God makes out of clay is for HONOUR, the other for DISHONOUR? And what baby has the say to what parents will he be born too? What vessel tells the potter what to make him. Oh you foolish people, who can council GOD? I certainly CANNOT! If i could I would have TOLD Him to make me holy! Wonder if He will do it?
What if I ask? What if I do as HE says... And ASK HIM FOR WISDOM, but I HAVE TO ASK IN FAITH... Apperently it is UNCONDITIONAL, as long as I ask in FAITH! Where do I get this FATIH from.. so it is conditional AGAIN! Man if only I understood!
All I know about God is this.... HE IS CHANGING ME! Why and to what I DO NOT KNOW, and do you want to know the TRUTH... I DO NOT CARE! HE WILL DO AS HE WILLS, I HAVE NO SAY! But I TRUST HIM!
One thing I do HOPE, not will HOPE... I have no will, let alone a free one... HAHAHA if people had wills, there would be more destinations than HELL and HEAVEN.... there would be more WAYS that the WIDE ONE TO HELL, and the NARROW one to heaven.
There are ONLY TWO ways, and TWO wills, we do EITHER of the two. Every action you do, like me RIGHT NOW, I only do what God wants me to do, like type this message, or I do what Satan wants me to do, and that is let us GOOGLE some evil sights, or whatever other lame thing HE WANTS (WILLS).
No man EVER had a will, but a CHOICE TO DO ONE OF TWO WILLS.... Adam could EAT, or NOT EAT! FINISH!
Well as it isn't written in the Gosepl that the convert must sin as he has limited free will to obey/not sin, and as that sure isn't what Paul meant in the verses you quoted from Rom to back up your view. And as when Christ quoted being a slave to sin it wasn't in the same context you meant when you quoted those words of Christ from John, I don't think either Paul or Christ would have had the same view of the Gospel you have mentioned in your 'backdrop' on those subjects
As to whether Christ would have the same view of the Gospel of Grace as me. If you at some point want to move away from the 'backdrop' amnd discuss the Gospel of Grace proper I will respond to what you write and you can make your own mind up as to whether you think my view of the Gosepl is biblical or not
As to whether Christ would have the same view of the Gospel of Grace as me. If you at some point want to move away from the 'backdrop' amnd discuss the Gospel of Grace proper I will respond to what you write and you can make your own mind up as to whether you think my view of the Gosepl is biblical or not
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My advice would be to ignore those who consider themselves wise enough to accuse you of not being a child of God(if that is was has happened, I haven't read the posts) because they think they have the head doctrine to do it. The internet is full of such people, they will have to answer one day for setting themselvbes up as Judge, Jury and executioner. In truth they simply show how much real truth and knowledge and undserstanding they lack
Mark,
This is part of the meat. It is part of what people need to hear. It's not the light fluffy stuff,that people so often want to hear but it MUST be there,in order to truly see why we need a savior. Instead of getting on Elin's case about the fact that she has already told you what the purpose of this thread is,instead of wasting all that time and energy complaining about it,why not put that energy into starting a thread that would go in the direction that you would prefer.
This is part of the meat. It is part of what people need to hear. It's not the light fluffy stuff,that people so often want to hear but it MUST be there,in order to truly see why we need a savior. Instead of getting on Elin's case about the fact that she has already told you what the purpose of this thread is,instead of wasting all that time and energy complaining about it,why not put that energy into starting a thread that would go in the direction that you would prefer.
That is more misunderstanding on your part.
Are you saying the thinking of your objection is the way you would think regarding your faith, in the light of the Sovereignty of God in salvation?
You are not taking into account that the gift of faith is not just a change in thinking, but is just as much a dramatic change in disposition.
The disposition of those who have been given faith by God does not dispose them to think that way.
You are thinking only in terms of fides, you are not thinking in terms of fiduces.
I'm sorry if you find that offensive, but you are wrong about the kind of thinking regarding one's faith that the sovereignty of God in salvation must lead to.
Are you saying the thinking of your objection is the way you would think regarding your faith, in the light of the Sovereignty of God in salvation?
You are not taking into account that the gift of faith is not just a change in thinking, but is just as much a dramatic change in disposition.
The disposition of those who have been given faith by God does not dispose them to think that way.
You are thinking only in terms of fides, you are not thinking in terms of fiduces.
I'm sorry if you find that offensive, but you are wrong about the kind of thinking regarding one's faith that the sovereignty of God in salvation must lead to.