Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man
- Thread starter Elin
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Of course we cannot, your statement that the Christian has limited free will to obey/not to sin, and then citing Rom8:7&8 in suppoort of that leaves us nowhere to go. Pity you don't feel you can defend, or respond as to why you cite those verses in support of your position, but that's OK.
If you at anytime feel you can move on from stressing predestination, man is born with a sin nature, and he only has a limited free will to obey, I will follow any thread of yours avidly. So far it seems a pretty depressing, weak and empty Gospel
If you at anytime feel you can move on from stressing predestination, man is born with a sin nature, and he only has a limited free will to obey, I will follow any thread of yours avidly. So far it seems a pretty depressing, weak and empty Gospel
C
It is not the two words which matter, but the conclusion it leads to. It can lead a person to assume that it does not matter what you do, you will end up where you are destined to be. It would have one reasoning: if I am destined for hell, why try to have faith in Christ, it would be useless. If I am destined for Heaven, why even live my faith, I am going there anyway.
wow.....i guess if anyone thought this way:
"If I am destined for Heaven, why even live my faith, I am going there anyway."
they weren't actually born again.
what's "live my faith"?
what does that mean?
don't we live a Christian life - because we are new creatures?
i know you don't believe in eternal security.
so you are consistent.
"If I am destined for Heaven, why even live my faith, I am going there anyway."
they weren't actually born again.
what's "live my faith"?
what does that mean?
don't we live a Christian life - because we are new creatures?
i know you don't believe in eternal security.
so you are consistent.
anyways...the conclusion I MEANT one who is not a universalist would reach is simply:
all men will not be saved = the atonement was not saving for them - clearly.
nothing more nothing less. that's the conclusion i addressed.
that's exactly why this discussion goes where it does.
supposedly we know that truth - that not all men will be saved.
but the rest is unspeakable.
which is ridiculous.
all men will not be saved = the atonement was not saving for them - clearly.
nothing more nothing less. that's the conclusion i addressed.
that's exactly why this discussion goes where it does.
supposedly we know that truth - that not all men will be saved.
but the rest is unspeakable.
which is ridiculous.
As believers, are we sure that heaven is ours to inherit nomatter what?
do we believe TOWARD that place in heaven?
Can we lose it?
If we can lose it, then a large portion of our faith is believing TOWARD that place in heaven, is it not?
So then walking the way is for our own gain if we can lose our place, or else pointless if we are 'SECURE', is it not?
I disagree.
One who holds to Jesus' teaching for the sake of its fruit, its benefit and its simplicity is the one who is TRULY saved. Saved from all this 'is it, is it not, what if, how come, why so, how do I know I'm 'saved', what do I NEED to do?'
Believe - Be convinced of
Have faith - Trust in. Have immaculate hope.
Work - Show love
do we believe TOWARD that place in heaven?
Can we lose it?
If we can lose it, then a large portion of our faith is believing TOWARD that place in heaven, is it not?
So then walking the way is for our own gain if we can lose our place, or else pointless if we are 'SECURE', is it not?
I disagree.
One who holds to Jesus' teaching for the sake of its fruit, its benefit and its simplicity is the one who is TRULY saved. Saved from all this 'is it, is it not, what if, how come, why so, how do I know I'm 'saved', what do I NEED to do?'
Believe - Be convinced of
Have faith - Trust in. Have immaculate hope.
Work - Show love
C
Okay, in as few words as possible, I will explain again.
Limited atonement says that we are pre-destined for Heaven or Hell.
If God has pre-destined us, then would it really matter if I, having been pre-destined for Hell, were to have faith? No, because limited atonement says I will still go to Hell because it has been fore-ordained by God. So that faith in Christ I had has been annulled by limited atonement.
Would it matter if I, having been pre-destined for Heaven, did not live the life described in the NT as concerning how a child of God should live? No, because it would not matter what I did, I will still be going to Heaven, even if I were to deny Christ. Again, this doctrine annuls faith.
Hope for one's salvation, according to this doctrine, is taken away from the world and given only to those who have been pre-selected to have salvation. Yet, it was one of the reasons why Christ died, to offer salvation to the Gentiles too.
In this doctrine, faith is killed, hope is deadened and those who are not pre-s(elected) are told don't bother either way, you are going to hell.
I much rather point people to Christ then to tell them as that doctrine does, "If you are pre-elected, God will see to it you are. So, come to Him whenever. It really does not matter."
Limited atonement says that we are pre-destined for Heaven or Hell.
If God has pre-destined us, then would it really matter if I, having been pre-destined for Hell, were to have faith? No, because limited atonement says I will still go to Hell because it has been fore-ordained by God. So that faith in Christ I had has been annulled by limited atonement.
Would it matter if I, having been pre-destined for Heaven, did not live the life described in the NT as concerning how a child of God should live? No, because it would not matter what I did, I will still be going to Heaven, even if I were to deny Christ. Again, this doctrine annuls faith.
Hope for one's salvation, according to this doctrine, is taken away from the world and given only to those who have been pre-selected to have salvation. Yet, it was one of the reasons why Christ died, to offer salvation to the Gentiles too.
In this doctrine, faith is killed, hope is deadened and those who are not pre-s(elected) are told don't bother either way, you are going to hell.
I much rather point people to Christ then to tell them as that doctrine does, "If you are pre-elected, God will see to it you are. So, come to Him whenever. It really does not matter."
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