Loss of Salvation What the Bible says about it!

Elder1 · Mar 11, 2013

Laa said:

Please read my treatise, as I quote Paul teaching in roman and other books that he wrote. All of the new testament is for christians!

Now if you would have read my treatise at the start of this thread, you would have read that there is no external thing, bieng or person, that can seperate us from the love of God. But what is not mentioned in the list is sin! because sin is the only thing that can, and will seperate you from Gods love! Please take the time to read the treaise that I have posted, you will find that paul most definatly taught the gentile christians that they could forfiet their salvation. I wont go into it here in my reply, as I have covered this subject in detail in my treatise. Please read it!

Elder1 · Mar 11, 2013

RedTent said:

I am sorry, but it is evident to me from what radious said that he has not read my treatise. But you have listed just 2 of the 'cut off' points that the bible says. Others are apostacy, lukewamness, and others. please read my treatise to get them all.
thank you.
Elder1

Elder1 · Mar 11, 2013

tribesman said:

If you would please read my treatise you will see why your argument does not hold water.

Elder1

Elder1 · Mar 11, 2013

Hi every one. although I appreciate the fact that you are taking the time to post your stuff, it is obvious to me that none of you have actually read the treatise that I posted. No one can give an an intelligent argument in rebuttal to an argument without actually reading the argument that they want to refute! I answer your statements in the treatise, and I do it in great detail! The study that I have posted is a definitive work on the subject of losing ones salvation. I have not left any stones unturned in this study. Please read it first, and then if you have any questiions or comments, I will gladely answer them. But it is so tiring to have to read statements that are made by people who have no knowledge of the subject matter! And then have to point out things in answer to them that I have already delt with in the tretise. My brothers, I want to have an intelligent diolog with you on this subject. But no intelligent diolog is possible unless you first become familiear with what I have already stated on the subject.

God bless,

Elder1

Hungry · Mar 11, 2013

Elder1, I do appreciate the trouble you've gone through but give some of us time to properly digest this material and prepare for rebuttal.

Elder1 · Mar 11, 2013

Hungry said:

My beloved brother, please take as much time as you need to read it and digest it. I look foward to talking with you about it sometime in the future.

God bless.

Elder1

tribesman · Mar 11, 2013

Elder1 said:

Your treatise is nonsense.

Abiding · Mar 11, 2013

I know my mo is to make a funny but this isnt funny

Elin · Mar 11, 2013

Elder1 said:

This is what I come away with when I read the NT:

Jn 10:27-29 - "My sheep listen to my voice. I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal (everlasting) life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them (including they themselves cannot escape) out of my hand. My father who has given them to me is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."

Jn 6:39 - "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise him up at the last day. For my Father's will is that eveyone who looks to the Son, and believes in him (true faith, not false faith) shall have eternal life."

Php 1:6 - ". . .he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus (second coming)."

Heb 10:14 - ". . .he has made (past tense) perfect forever those who are being made holy (the saved)."

Ro 8:38 - ". . .neither death nor life. . .nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us (the saved) from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

1Pe 1:3-5 - ". . .he has given us new birth. . .into an inheritance. . .who through faith are shielded by God's power (from falling away) until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time (second coming).

2Pe 1:10-11 - ". . .make your calling and election sure (to yourself). For if you do these things, you will never fall (from faith), and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom. (If you are not doing these things, your calling and election are not sure; i.e., you were never called and elected.)

Ro 8:28 - ". . .in all things God works for (accomplishes) the good of those. . .who have been called according to his purpose (salvation)." That excludes falling from faith.

Eph 1:4-5 - ". . .he chose us. . .to be holy and blameless. . .to be adopted as his sons."

Regeneration (born again) does not allow that, once having been redeemed from the rebel camp of Satan and adopted into God's family as sons,
we can then be snatched from God's hand (contrary to Jn 10:27-29). That makes God too small.

Consider what regeneration really is:
Regeneration is raising from spiritual death (Col 2:13; Eph 2:1, 5) and the old nature (Eph 2:3),
into eternal life (God's life--2Pe 1:4; 1Jn 3:9; Jn 14:17), and a new nature/self (Eph 4:24; Col 3:10),
which makes us new creatures (2Co 5:17), like the transformation process of a caterpillar into a butterfly (Ro 12:2; cf Mt 7:2; Mk 9:2).

To "lose salvation" is to be snatched from the Father's hand, to reverse all that mighty work of God, and to reverse the transformation process, like the butterfly going back into a caterpillar.
That is imposible in the natural order, and it is impossible in the spiritual order, of which the natural order is a copy,
as the natural order is a copy of the spiritual order in conception and birth, where we have no choice in the matter (Jn 1:13), and are completely acted upon.

Scripture often speaks of professors (who are not possessors) as in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom.
See Lk 8:13-15; 1Jn 2:19; Mt 13 parables; Jn 8:30-31, 44, 15:2, 6; Gal 5:4; Heb 6:4-6, 10:29.
The specific phrase, "in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom," is not stated in Scripture, but specific illustrations of it are given; e.g.:

Lk 8:13-15, where the word is received with joy when they hear it, but they have no root (regeneration).
They believe for a while (false faith), but in the time of testing they fall away (because they have no root, they are not reborn).
They were in the kingdom for a while, but they were not of the kingdom.

1Jn 2:19 - "They went out from us (the kingdom), but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going was to show that none of them belonged to us (the kingdom).
They were in the kingdom, but they were not of the kingdom.

In the parables in Mt 13 on the nature of the kingdom, those in 13:24-30 are weeds in the kingdom (v.25, 41), but not of the kingdom (v.30, 41).
Likewise, those in 13:47-50 are bad fish in the net (kingdom), who are in the kingdom (net-v.47), but not of the kingdom (vv.48-49).

In Jn 8:31-47, those who believed in Jesus (v.31) did not hold to his teaching (v.31-33).
They were in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom (vv.44, 47).
They belonged to the enemy (Jn 8:44), not to the kingdom,
just as in the parable of the the weeds, they belonged to the enemy (Mt 13:25), not to the kingdom.

In Jn 10:1, the robber who climed into the sheep pen (kingdom of God), rather than entering through the gate (Jesus), was in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom. He belonged to the enemy, not to the kingdom, as in Mt 13:25 and Jn 8:44.

In Jn 15:1, Jesus is the vine (kingdom) where the Father cuts off the branches that bear no fruit. Those branches are in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom.

In Gal 5:4, they have fallen away from grace; i.e., they have gone to law-keeping. Those who continued in law-keeping after being warned of the consequences were in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom. Those of the kingdom abandoned law-keeping.

Heb 6:4-6, 10:29 is the same kind of situation. Those who returned to Judaism after being warned of the consequences were in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom. Those of the kingdom did not return to Judaism.

So while the phrase "in the kingdom but not of the kingom" is not specifically stated, it is specifically illustrated in the above (as the phrase "sovereignty of God" is not specifically stated, but it is specifically illustrated--Da 4:35).
Those who fall away or leave the fold were never really saved in the first place.

The NT is clear that the born again do not lose their salvation.

zone · Mar 11, 2013

starfield said:

backsliding is only ever mentioned in the OT, and it is always in reference to Israel the nation as a whole, specifically concerning idolatry....leading to the cutting off of many...

the parables were spoken as parables to apostate (cut-off) israel....why?

Matthew 13
The Purpose of the Parables
10Then the disciples came and said to him, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” 11And he answered them, “To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 13This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. 14 Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:

“‘You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.
15 For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.’

16But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear. 17 For truly, I say to you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.

RedTent · Mar 11, 2013

I think all the posters who talk of a warm and fuzzy Christ who forgives all, accepts all is doing what some of our denominations do that amounts to them being a cult. They are taking a few scriptures as the entire story of God without taking into consideration other scriptures on the same subject. If I did that here, only quoting scripture having to do with Christ as the warrior Christ will be when he comes again, only of those that talk of the need for obedience, and ignored the scriptures listed here, there would be outrage, and rightly so.

As all you who know me and are outraged by my thinking, I think that the OT tells of God, it tells of God principles we need to know. Some posters on this subject are saying that everything has to be after Paul brought Christ to the gentiles. Especially the Lutherans, I note. I do not think that we can learn of God without enough study that we can see how each and every scripture fits with the other. God never opposes God. All scripture is God breathed.

zone · Mar 11, 2013

RedTent said:

this is absolutely NOT true.
either about Lutheran posters on this forum or Lutheranism.
get your facts straight redtent.

RedTent · Mar 11, 2013

Here is a scripture that includes both the warm and fuzzy, forgiving God we have, and the warrior God. In Romans 11 God is explaining to us about the root and branches, that we are like branches of the root of Israel.
[SUP]20[/SUP] They were broken off because of their lack of trust. However, you keep your place only because of your trust. So don't be arrogant; on the contrary, be terrified!
[SUP]21[/SUP] For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly won't spare you!
[SUP]22[/SUP] So take a good look at God's kindness and his severity: on the one hand, severity toward those who fell off; but, on the other hand, God's kindness toward you- provided you maintain yourself in that kindness! Otherwise, you too will be cut off!

Elder1 · Mar 12, 2013

Elin said:

This is what I come away with when I read the NT:

Jn 10:27-29 - "My sheep listen to my voice. I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal (everlasting) life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them (including they themselves cannot escape) out of my hand. My father who has given them to me is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."

Jn 6:39 - "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise him up at the last day. For my Father's will is that eveyone who looks to the Son, and believes in him (true faith, not false faith) shall have eternal life."

Php 1:6 - ". . .he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus (second coming)."

Heb 10:14 - ". . .he has made (past tense) perfect forever those who are being made holy (the saved)."

Ro 8:38 - ". . .neither death nor life. . .nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us (the saved) from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."

1Pe 1:3-5 - ". . .he has given us new birth. . .into an inheritance. . .who through faith are shielded by God's power (from falling away) until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time (second coming).

2Pe 1:10-11 - ". . .make your calling and election sure (to yourself). For if you do these things, you will never fall (from faith), and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom. (If you are not doing these things, your calling and election are not sure; i.e., you were never called and elected.)

Ro 8:28 - ". . .in all things God works for (accomplishes) the good of those. . .who have been called according to his purpose (salvation)." That excludes falling from faith.

Eph 1:4-5 - ". . .he chose us. . .to be holy and blameless. . .to be adopted as his sons."

Regeneration (born again) does not allow that, once having been redeemed from the rebel camp of Satan and adopted into God's family as sons,
we can then be snatched from God's hand (contrary to Jn 10:27-29). That makes God too small.

Consider what regeneration really is:
Regeneration is raising from spiritual death (Col 2:13; Eph 2:1, 5) and the old nature (Eph 2:3),
into eternal life (God's life--2Pe 1:4; 1Jn 3:9; Jn 14:17), and a new nature/self (Eph 4:24; Col 3:10),
which makes us new creatures (2Co 5:17), like the transformation process of a caterpillar into a butterfly (Ro 12:2; cf Mt 7:2; Mk 9:2).

To "lose salvation" is to be snatched from the Father's hand, to reverse all that mighty work of God, and to reverse the transformation process, like the butterfly going back into a caterpillar.
That is imposible in the natural order, and it is impossible in the spiritual order, of which the natural order is a copy,
as the natural order is a copy of the spiritual order in conception and birth, where we have no choice in the matter (Jn 1:13), and are completely acted upon.

Scripture often speaks of professors (who are not possessors) as in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom.
See Lk 8:13-15; 1Jn 2:19; Mt 13 parables; Jn 8:30-31, 44, 15:2, 6; Gal 5:4; Heb 6:4-6, 10:29.
The specific phrase, "in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom," is not stated in Scripture, but specific illustrations of it are given; e.g.:

Lk 8:13-15, where the word is received with joy when they hear it, but they have no root (regeneration).
They believe for a while (false faith), but in the time of testing they fall away (because they have no root, they are not reborn).
They were in the kingdom for a while, but they were not of the kingdom.

1Jn 2:19 - "They went out from us (the kingdom), but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going was to show that none of them belonged to us (the kingdom).
They were in the kingdom, but they were not of the kingdom.

In the parables in Mt 13 on the nature of the kingdom, those in 13:24-30 are weeds in the kingdom (v.25, 41), but not of the kingdom (v.30, 41).
Likewise, those in 13:47-50 are bad fish in the net (kingdom), who are in the kingdom (net-v.47), but not of the kingdom (vv.48-49).

In Jn 8:31-47, those who believed in Jesus (v.31) did not hold to his teaching (v.31-33).
They were in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom (vv.44, 47).
They belonged to the enemy (Jn 8:44), not to the kingdom,
just as in the parable of the the weeds, they belonged to the enemy (Mt 13:25), not to the kingdom.

In Jn 10:1, the robber who climed into the sheep pen (kingdom of God), rather than entering through the gate (Jesus), was in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom. He belonged to the enemy, not to the kingdom, as in Mt 13:25 and Jn 8:44.

In Jn 15:1, Jesus is the vine (kingdom) where the Father cuts off the branches that bear no fruit. Those branches are in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom.

In Gal 5:4, they have fallen away from grace; i.e., they have gone to law-keeping. Those who continued in law-keeping after being warned of the consequences were in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom. Those of the kingdom abandoned law-keeping.

Heb 6:4-6, 10:29 is the same kind of situation. Those who returned to Judaism after being warned of the consequences were in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom. Those of the kingdom did not return to Judaism.

So while the phrase "in the kingdom but not of the kingom" is not specifically stated, it is specifically illustrated in the above (as the phrase "sovereignty of God" is not specifically stated, but it is specifically illustrated--Da 4:35).
Those who fall away or leave the fold were never really saved in the first place.

The NT is clear that the born again do not lose their salvation.

It is clear to me that you have not read my study any further then the first paragraph and have decided to give me your rendition of certain passages outside of the context of many other scriptures. I assume that you wont read my study, so I will go throgh and answer each scripture that you have listed and give you the true meaning of them. But you wont read my reply once I get done because it will be too long for you to read as well. Please read the study first! Thanks. it will take me a while to go though each scripture for you. so be patient.

Elder1

Elder1 · Mar 12, 2013

ok, I finnally finished interpreting what you have said. I have interjected my replies after each scripture. here it is:
Ok, because you did not read the portion of my study that deals with these passages, I will deal with them again.
First of all, you cannot just take one set of scriptures on a topic and divorce them from another set of scriptures on the same topic!
In my study, I deliberately start off with the negative scriptures on the subject because one main reason that people reject the teaching of loss of salvation is because they are never taught it in the churches or many colleges. They are instead given an un balanced view of the what the scriptures have to say on the subject.
This particular study of losing ones salvation took me over 10 yrs to put together, and I have put in hundreds of hours of prayer and fasting into this study as for the first few years that I examined the scriptures it appeared to be contradictive. But once the Holy Spirit showed me how it all works together, I could then put this study together. And one reason that it was so difficult to understand is that I was looking at the problem backwards! I was taught the doctrine of eternal security when I was growing up. So I tried to interpret the passages that said we could lose our salvation from that perspective. This only created confusion. So I turned it around, and started from the premise that the Bible clearly teaches that true believers can lose their salvation and started my examination of the scriptures again. And after reading some scripures in the old test about how God made what looks like an unconditional gaurantee to king david that his throne would last forever, and then reading other passages where God sets the condition of David’s sons being obedient to Him in order for his throne to endure forever. I had to ask myself the question ‘which of these is true! Is God’s promise to david completely unconditional, or is it conditioned upon David’s son’s obedience.’ (I have gone into detail on this in my study, which you have not read yet. If you want the scriptures that are associated with what I am saying now, please read my study.) Then I studied I found out that King Davids throne ended when Israel went into Babylonian captivity somewhere around 500 bc. And no one has sat on that throne since then! King Davids throne has not existed for over 2400 yrs now! Thus I have to conclude that the passages in the old testament that appear to be without conditions were indeed actually conditioned upon Davids son’s walking in obedience to God. But you only get this truth if you put the scriptures that appear to be unconditional alongside the scriptures that say that it is conditional. And then assume that the scriptues that appear to be unconditional promises of eternal continuation of the throne were, and are, actually conditional.
Now that is true with the new testament scriptures as well. And it is for this reason that I start my study proving that the scriptures CLEARLY teach that a true Christian can forfeit their salvation, before I deal with the scripture that appear to say that they cannot.
Now there are 38 passages in the new testament that state or imply that true Christians can indeed forfeit their salvation. And I have listed and explained each one in my study at the beginning of this tread, So I am not going to repeat them here, but instead am going to interpret each scripture in the light of the truth that Christians can lose their salvation. Now having said that, it is time to address the scriptures that you have posted hear:
　
This is what I come away with when I read the NT:

Jn 10:27-29 - "My sheep listen to my voice. I know them and they follow me. I give them eternal (everlasting) life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them (including they themselves cannot escape) out of my hand. My father who has given them to me is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand."
You have to cross referance this passage with John 15:1-8
"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples. NKJV
In the passage above, we know that Jesus is talking about true Christians as no one can be in Christ unless he is a true Christian! And Jesus tells us that if we do not bear fruit, true Christians will be cut off from Him by God and cast into the fire (I.e. Hell!) So if jesus truly stated both things, then you must conclude that when Jesus said that they ‘will never perish’, He was meaning that they will never perish as long as they bear fruit! For if they stop producing fuit, then God will cut them off from Him and cast then into Hell! This rule applies to all other passages that talk about eternal life as well!
Now it says that “nono one can snatch them out of my Father's hand." this is true! No external being can snatch you out of His hand! But you can get up and walk out of His hand! We are not prisoner’s in His grip! God has given us the gift of a free will to be able to chose to obey him or not. And if we chose to do something that will cost us our salvation, then we also choose to get walk out of His hand.

Jn 6:39 - "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise him up at the last day. For my Father's will is that eveyone who looks to the Son, and believes in him (true faith, not false faith) shall have eternal life."
This verse is in reference to his disciples that he had chosen for himself while he was here on earth. And once again this must be interpreted in light of jn 15 For his did lose one of them: e.g. Judas.
And then there is the passage that says that it is Gods will that none should perish but that all should come to repentance. (1 pet 3:9) now does this mean that because that it is gods will that no one should perish but that all should come to repentance that everyone will come to repentance without exception? Not hardly. It just means that it is gods desire for every one to come to repentance. So also it is Gods desire not to lose one of His sheep, but that does not mean that He wont lose some of them.

Php 1:6 - ". . .he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus (second coming)."
Being that the scripture is clear that we can lose our salvation; we must understand this verse to mean that as long as we continue to obey God and maintain our salvation; God will keep on working in us until the day of Christ Jesus.

Heb 10:14 - ". . .he has made (past tense) perfect forever those who are being made holy (the saved)."
The word ‘forever’ in the scriptures does not mean time without end; but rather an undefined indefinite period of time that could come to an end. King davids throne was to last forever. And yet we know that it came to an end over 2,400 yrs ago. I go into greater length on this subject in my study, please read it. So the correct understanding of this verse is that we have been made perfect for an indefinite, undefined period of time that could come to an end if we do something that would cost us our salvation.

Ro 8:38 - ". . .neither death nor life. . .nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us (the saved) from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord."
I answered this in my study as well, but you have not read it so I have to say it again here: this list of things does not include sin! What Paul is saying in this passage is that there is nothing that is EXTERNAL from us that can separate us from Gods love. But, because the scriptures tell us that we can lose our salvation, we can understand that sin can and will separate us from Gods love. This truth is repeated throughout the scriptures!

1Pe 1:3-5 - ". . .he has given us new birth. . .into an inheritance. . .who through faith are shielded by God's power (from falling away) until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time (second coming).
Once again this promise is conditioned upon our continued obedience to Him. It is conditioned upon us continuing to abide in Christ. Gods power is able to keep us from falling, but if we choose to walk away from God, His power will not continue to shield us!

Elder1 · Mar 12, 2013

2Pe 1:10-11
- ". . .make your calling and election sure (to yourself). For if you do these things, you will never fall (from faith), and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom. (If you are not doing these things, your calling and election are not sure; i.e., you were never called and elected.)
You are missing an obvious point in this scripture: I.e. it is we who are to make sure that calling and election are sure. This is something that we must do if we are to keep our salvation. If we fail to do this, we forfeit our salvation. For the scripture tells us that ‘IF we DO these things we shall never fall’ these words imply the negative as well, that is if we do not do those things we will fall!

Ro 8:28 - ". . .in all things God works for (accomplishes) the good of those. . .who have been called according to his purpose (salvation)." That excludes falling from faith.
Please don’t tear up the scripture in order to make a point. Heres what it says: Rom 8:28-29
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. NKJV
Now the scripture is says that to love God is to obey God! (1jn 5:3, 2Jn 6) So this promise is to those who obey God. But if they stop obeying God, then God stops working all thing for their good. See my study above.)

Eph 1:4-5 - ". . .he chose us. . .to be holy and blameless. . .to be adopted as his sons."
Yes we are adopted sons: and if we become disobedient sons: we get kicked out of the family! that’s what the rest of the scriptures tell us: in fact, in the old testament, when a son became disobedient to his parents, they killed him! (God commands them to).

Regeneration (born again) does not allow that, once having been redeemed from the rebel camp of Satan and adopted into God's family as sons,
we can then be snatched from God's hand (contrary to Jn 10:27-29). That makes God too small.
Not at all true! God will not go against your will! If you want to disobey Him: He will let you disobey Him! If you want to go back into satans camp: He will let you go back into satans camp! Every day we must choose whom we will serve! Once again, If you want to get up and walk out of His hand: He will not stop you!

Consider what regeneration really is:
Regeneration is raising from spiritual death (Col 2:13; Eph 2:1, 5) and the old nature (Eph 2:3),
into eternal life (God's life--2Pe 1:4; 1Jn 3:9; Jn 14:17), and a new nature/self (Eph 4:24; Col 3:10),
which makes us new creatures (2Co 5:17), like the transformation process of a caterpillar into a butterfly (Ro 12:2; cf Mt 7:2; Mk 9:2).
Yes, and once your are regenerated, you can choose to go back into your sin! This is stated several places in the new testament. (romans 6, and 1 Pet come to mind. Think about this, if after you have been regenerated you choose to steal, lie, commit sexual imorality, will you not become unregerated? Yes, you will, you become like the dog that returns to its vomit or the pig who after being washed, returns to the mud and wallows in it.

To "lose salvation" is to be snatched from the Father's hand, to reverse all that mighty work of God, and to reverse the transformation process, like the butterfly going back into a caterpillar.
No, it is to walk out of the father’s hand, and to corrupt the new nature. Read romans chapter 6. Better yet, read my treatise where I go into detail on this matter.

That is imposible in the natural order, and it is impossible in the spiritual order, of which the natural order is a copy,
as the natural order is a copy of the spiritual order in conception and birth, where we have no choice in the matter (Jn 1:13), and are completely acted upon.
Really, we have no choice? Over 90% of the scripture disagrees with you! God will not violate your free will that He has given too you! For God does not want anyone in His heaven who will not voluntarily submit to His will. And according to at least 38 new testament passages, the natural order is your free will to chose! And we often choose, according to the natural order, to disobey God. What you said above makes no rational sense at all!

Scripture often speaks of professors (who are not possessors) as in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom.
See Lk 8:13-15; 1Jn 2:19; Mt 13 parables; Jn 8:30-31, 44, 15:2, 6; Gal 5:4; Heb 6:4-6, 10:29.
The specific phrase, "in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom," is not stated in Scripture, but specific illustrations of it are given; e.g.:
Yes, there are those who are wolves in sheeps clothing and those who only pretend to be Christians. These people are obviously not saved! But the subject that we are discussing is not about pretenders and wolves: it is about true Christians losing their salvation! So your point above is moot.

Lk 8:13-15, where the word is received with joy when they hear it, but they have no root (regeneration).
They believe for a while (false faith), but in the time of testing they fall away (because they have no root, they are not reborn).
They were in the kingdom for a while, but they were not of the kingdom.

Your interpretation of this verse is wrong! I have gone into great detail as to what it means in my study, please read it. But just a short note: I ask you the question: When does someone get saved?
Is it when they believer the gospel, confess their sin, repent, etc. or is it when they have been proven thought time as to wither or not they will remain faithful to God? The thief on the cross became saves as soon as he believed. So does every one else. So when this passage says that they believed for a while: they were truly saved! Then they fell away, thus losing the salvation that they once had. Pleas read my study!

1Jn 2:19 - "They went out from us (the kingdom), but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going was to show that none of them belonged to us (the kingdom).
They were in the kingdom, but they were not of the kingdom.
Once again, this study is not about false believers. It is about true Christians losing their salvation. And the above passage has no bearing on the subject. It simply tells us that there are some people who like Christians because they are nice people, yet they themselves are not Christians! And when the going gets tough they leave: because they were not believers to begin with. By the way, when it says that ‘they went out from us’ it does not refer to the kingdom of God, but rather from their local church fellowship!

In the parables in Mt 13 on the nature of the kingdom, those in 13:24-30 are weeds in the kingdom (v.25, 41), but not of the kingdom (v.30, 41).
Ok, this parable is interpreted for us by Jesus, He says that the ‘tares’ are the world, and that the ‘wheat’ are the Christians. And this parable tells us that God is going to allow both the damned and the saved to live together until the rapture happens because we need the gentiles in order to survive hear on earth. The gentiles prduce crops, cars, etc. and to kill them all would kill a lot of Christians as well. For this reason the ‘tares’ are not ‘removed’ from the ‘wheat’.

Elder1 · Mar 12, 2013

Likewise, those in 13:47-50 are bad fish in the net (kingdom), who are in the kingdom (net-v.47), but not of the kingdom (vv.48-49).
This parable is about the same thing, Christians and heathen living side by side until the judgment. Then they will be separated. The passage itself tells you this! I wish you would give the passages that you are trying to comment on. Since you did not, I will.
Matt 13:24-30
Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?' 28 He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, 'Do you want us then to go and gather them up?' 29 But he said, 'No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn."'"
NKJV
Matt 13:37-43
37 He answered and said to them: "He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear! NKJV
Matt 13:47-50
"Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, 48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. 49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth." NKJV

In Jn 8:31-47, those who believed in Jesus (v.31) did not hold to his teaching (v.31-33).
They were in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom (vv.44, 47).
They belonged to the enemy (Jn 8:44), not to the kingdom,
just as in the parable of the the weeds, they belonged to the enemy (Mt 13:25), not to the kingdom.
Your not making any sense! In one sense, every one is in the kingdom of God, for all are judged by god and punished or blessed by God. And in another sense, it is only those who are submitted to King Jesus I.e. those who are obeying Jesus, who are in God’s kingdom. If you are talking about the first sense, then yes, there are those who are saved those who are lost in the kingdom. But if your talking about the second sense, then it is only true Christians that are in the kingdom, and they remain their only as long as they abide in christ.

In Jn 10:1, the robber who climed into the sheep pen (kingdom of God), rather than entering through the gate (Jesus), was in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom. He belonged to the enemy, not to the kingdom, as in Mt 13:25 and Jn 8:44.
See note above!

In Jn 15:1, Jesus is the vine (kingdom) where the Father cuts off the branches that bear no fruit. Those branches are in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom.
This statement is blatantly false! If you read the passage you will find that Jesus says ‘Every branch IN me..’ now no one can be IN Jesus unless they are truly saved! I go into great detail on this in my study. Please read it!

In Gal 5:4, they have fallen away from grace; i.e., they have gone to law-keeping. Those who continued in law-keeping after being warned of the consequences were in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom. Those of the kingdom abandoned law-keeping.
You mis-stated the verse above: this is what it says: Gal 5:4
4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. NKJV Notice that it does not say that you have fallen away from grace; but rather that you have fallen from grace. The word ‘grace’ in the greek means Gods divine influence upon the heart and its reflection in the life’. (strongs greek dict.) thus what Paul is telling them is that they have fallen from Gods divine influence upon their hearts.
But this verse proves that it is indeed possible to fall from grace! Thus grace alone will not sustain your salvation! This is all in my study.
Heb 6:4-6, 10:29
is the same kind of situation. Those who returned to Judaism after being warned of the consequences were in the kingdom, but not of the kingdom. Those of the kingdom did not return to Judaism.
These two passages describe a true Christian who commit’s the sin of apostasy. It is about a true Christian trampling the gospel, by which they were saved, under their feet. Read my study, I have gone to great lengths to prove this beyond all doubt, and I have indeed proven it beyond all doubt. Please read the evidence that I have given. Once you read it, and understand it, you will see that what you have said is nonsense!

So while the phrase "in the kingdom but not of the kingom" is not specifically stated, it is specifically illustrated in the above (as the phrase "sovereignty of God" is not specifically stated, but it is specifically illustrated--Da 4:35).
Once again, this is a mote point. For if you look at it from the point of view that every one is in gods kingdom, saint and sinner alike, then there are indeed those who are in the kingdom but not subject to the King of that kingdom, namely Jesus. What you have said above has nothing at all to do with those who are true Christians in the kingdom who lose their salvation!

Those who fall away or leave the fold were never really saved in the first place.
This statement is not found in the bible anywhere! No where in the scripture does it say that those who fall away or leave the fold were never saved in the first place! It does say that Christians who leave the fold or fall away forfiet their salvation. The false statement that you have said above is said by those who refuse to accept what the scripture clearly states in many places! Please read my treatise and you will see that what I am saying is true!

The NT is clear that the born again do not lose their salvation.

So then, if you will actually read my study, you will see that this statement is false! In some of the scriptures that you gave above, you twisted them, and in one case at least you failed to give the clear teaching of what Jesus himself said those passages meant. I do not do these things! My study is an honest look at what the scriptures say. Please read it!

Elder1

Elder1 · Mar 12, 2013

RedTent said:

this is just one of the scriptures that I quote in my tretise that I have posted. Good stuff though. thanks for sharing it! as I am now persuaded that everyone will actually read this verse now that you have quoted it. they wont read what I have posted so they wont read it from there. sad, but evedently true,

God bless,

Elder1

Elder1 · Mar 12, 2013

zone said:

I am sorry sir, But I disagree with you. the word 'backslide' is not found in the new testament, but the consept of backsliding is! prases like, 'you have fallen from grace, or 'as a dog returns to its vomit, and a pig, after being washed returns to the mud' are there and they definatly refer to some one who has 'backslide'.

Remember also that the word 'trinity' does not appear in the bible either, neither does the word 'rapture'. but these words are titles for doctrines that the bible clearly teaches.

God bless,

Elder1

zone · Mar 12, 2013

Elder1 said:

i said backsliding only appears in the OT < true.
then said the parables are understood by christians, because to them it has been given to know the meaning < true.
as well, that the parables were spoken as parables to backslidden (apostate) ISRAEL < true.
and showed why - to fulfill what was written/pronounced < true.

so what exactly is it you want to disagree with?
was anything said that wasn't true?

Loss of Salvation What the Bible says about it!

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