Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

[mark54]

Maybe Christians don't but unbelievers do. How do you know that this is the only time someone will hear it? Are you that wise that you can say they don't? Can you see all that the Lord will use to draw them to Himself?

As you mention unbelievers/those seeking, I know the damage that has been done to some who have come onto the internet only to hear that many are born, and predestined to spend eternity in a lake of fire/they have no choice in the matter for that is what God wills.
I also believe great damage is done when such people here the doctrinal hoops others expect people to jump through in order to inherit eterrnall ife, demands unto salvation that are not written/demanded in the bible
In my opinion anyone who has been a Christian less than five years should steer well clear of these sites, and look to a qualified minister to learn, rather than the would be internet scholar or theologian, who often preaches non biblical demands that ministers would never preach from the pulpit(or only a very few would)

 

[zone]

To me, elect= whosoever shall believe in the Son. God has chosen those in Christ as His people, they are chosen by Him.

i agree.

i'm not a calvinist chris.
you're not either.

but you said:

whosoever shall believe in the Son
God has chosen those in Christ as His people
they are chosen by Him

so those who are not saved on the last day were not elect. right?
and the atonement was of no effect...right?
simple. seems like.

edit, add:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism < click

 

[cfultz3]

i agree.

i'm not a calvinist chris.
you're not either. --I will take your word on this

but you said:

whosoever shall believe in the Son
God has chosen those in Christ as His people
they are chosen by Him

so those who are not saved on the last day were not elect. right?
and the atonement was of no effect...right?
simple. seems like.

I cannot agree more with you here, Zone. But, it is that pre-determination and what it implies which does contradict that 'whosoever'.

But, if it were said, "they who are in Christ, by coming to Him through faith, are pre-determined for salvation through God's foreordained salvational plan in Christ", then not a word I would have said. But, this is the message I am receiving from Elin, "everyone's eternal destination has already been pre-determined by God and not by faith", and thus, that faith mentioned about is no more a consideration, seeing that it has already been pre-determined.

 

[zone]

I cannot agree more with you here, Zone. But, it is that pre-determination and what it implies which does contradict that 'whosoever'.

But, if it were said, "they who are in Christ, by coming to Him through faith, are pre-determined for salvation through God's foreordained salvational plan in Christ", then not a word I would have said. But, this is the message I am receiving from Elin, "everyone's eternal destination has already been pre-determined by God and not by faith", and thus, that faith mentioned about is no more a consideration, seeing that it has already been pre-determined.

don't take my word for you being not a calvinist.
i just come to that conclusion based on what you write.

pre-determination...predestination...foreknowledge <words - either God determines and controls and knows or He doesn't.

just see no point, zero, none - in trying to wiggle around it! i don't know why we want to!

John 10
I and the Father Are One
22At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me,a is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

But, this is the message I am receiving from Elin, "everyone's eternal destination has already been pre-determined by God and not by faith", and thus, that faith mentioned about is no more a consideration, seeing that it has already been pre-determined.

Fester addressed this.
God designed, planned, created, invented, decided on EVERYTHING...including the thing you keep talkiing about - FAITH.

i agree...no point 'having faith' in something you don't believe (in)!

God said some will be saved. do you believe Him, or don't you?
God said some will not be saved. do you believe Him, or don't you?
this is 'predetermined' because he already told us it is true!

we don't know who will be and who won't be...do you? i don't.
but God DOES.

no clue what the problem is!!

i'm sorry you're hearing things from Elin you don't like.
she's not saying what you are hearing though.
why you won't consider this i do not know.

 

[GreenNnice]

There is freewill choice though, ohzone. That is what needs to be understood, and, sadly, is not, for certain, by nilE, and, you, and, a few others, who, yes, believe in Calvanism.

I want to direct you to 2 John 18-29 , to fully understand what FAITH is given us by God But, not yet....

I want you to understand this, FIRST, small details before BIG :

Summary: Those who go out with John and the others that are not Christian, are, therefore, anti Christ , or, to put it, Scripturally quoted, 'antichrists.'

I'm sure this much we can agree with.

Then, those that left John and the other Christians were NEVER with them in the first place, and, this means they were anti Christ, their minds were NOT open to RECEIVING the faith that God measured for them. Again, though God gives each man a measure of faith. Man MUST accept that faith. Does this make sense, ohzone ? Man MUST believe on His own , 'believe in His name,' says 1 John 1:12, think it is. And then that man is 'born of God.' This is HOW that is done, no zippy, whippy regeneration and implantation happening, the man MUST choose BOTH Christ, BY FAITH, and, later, then, He MUST accept the Holy Spirit, again, this is BY FAITH.

Then, this is understanding of Eph. 2: 8-9 and add verse 10 IF you want the whole desire of God, who wants us to be His worker. We are 'His workmanship,' again, I think we have an agreement here.
ace

Now, we go back to those with John and the others who NEVER belonged (to Christ) in the first place.

What kind of freewill determinism words does John USE for those who are with Christ. Does John say that they are His no matter what, or, does John urge those who are with Him following Christ as Christians to 'remain' in Him and to 'continue' in Him.

So, although, yes, 100% agree, God KNOWS all, He is 'all and all,' and IF that does not help you understand His sovereignty then nothing else will. He is in control but He has given us FAITH, a 'measure' to us, this means, an amount of faith. Now, we do not know how much that is, but, ALL us can assume that it is ENOUGH for all, especially coupled with His mercies 'new every morning,' and His grace, which Paul let's us know is 'sufficient.'

So, here is OUR job to INCREASE our faith, how do we do that, by having FAITH Soooo complicated, eh, ohzone But, it's NOT, for Christ is who INCREASES our FAITH right, we just read 1 Cor. 3 and understand this truth. Paul waters, Apollos plants, etc. and God is the One who increases both's faith as both 'are one' working ,or, in service to the Lord, who is righteous.
Righteous=

1. (of a person or conduct) Morally right or justifiable; virtuous.
2. Perfectly wonderful; fine and genuine.)

And, how do we maintain our faith, and, righteousness (right-standing with God) ??? BY FAITH, by REMAINING in Him, by CONTINUING in Him....

Now, read this, and, notice the bold-faced words, ohzone:


1 John 2 (Let's just put it all in there for you, but notice the blackened bold words , again, I say to you)

1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Love and Hatred for Fellow Believers
3We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5But if anyone obeys his word, love for God[SUP]a[/SUP] is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
7Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. 8Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and in you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining.
9Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister[SUP]b[/SUP] is still in the darkness. 10Anyone who loves their brother and sister[SUP]c[/SUP] lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble. 11But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them.
Reasons for Writing
12I am writing to you, dear children,
because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.
13I am writing to you, fathers,
because you know him who is from the beginning.
I am writing to you, young men,
because you have overcome the evil one.

14I write to you, dear children,
because you know the Father.
I write to you, fathers,
because you know him who is from the beginning.
I write to you, young men,
because you are strong,
and the word of God lives in you,
and you have overcome the evil one.

On Not Loving the World (greennnice: remember, revelation, too, Scripture says, 'He who overcomes....'

15Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father[SUP]d[/SUP] is not in them. 16For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.
Warnings Against Denying the Son
18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[SUP]e[/SUP] 21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

God’s Children and Sin

28And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.

29If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.

 

[cfultz3]

don't take my word for you being not a calvinist.
i just come to that conclusion based on what you write.

What I meant is if someone were to ask me what theology I would subscribe to, I would not know.

pre-determination...predestination...foreknowledge <words - either God determines and controls and knows or He doesn't.

just see no point, zero, none - in trying to wiggle around it! i don't know why we want to!

John 10
I and the Father Are One
22At that time the Feast of Dedication took place at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was walking in the temple, in the colonnade of Solomon. 24So the Jews gathered around him and said to him, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly.” 25Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, 26but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me,a is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”



Fester addressed this.
God designed, planned, created, invented, decided on EVERYTHING...including the thing you keep talkiing about - FAITH.

i agree...no point 'having faith' in something you don't believe (in)!

God said some will be saved. do you believe Him, or don't you?
God said some will not be saved. do you believe Him, or don't you?
this is 'predetermined' because he already told us it is true!

we don't know who will be and who won't be...do you? i don't.
but God DOES.

no clue what the problem is!!

i'm sorry you're hearing things from Elin you don't like.
she's not saying what you are hearing though.
why you won't consider this i do not know.

She has yet qualified pre-determination in that sense, but does say/imply that one's salvation is determined beforehand, as though we were born for hell or heaven. As though even the fall of the angels and Adam and Eve were determined to be so that God could have fulfilled His will. If all things are pre-detemined, then that would say that God would had even caused the wickedness of the wicked. But, we know that there is no shadow in God. I really do not know why you won't consider this.

That doctrine of determinism would be what is considered wiggling around with the Scriptures which state, and you agree, that whosoever believes in the Son is saved.

 

[zone]

There is freewill choice though, ohzone. That is what needs to be understood, and, sadly, is not, for certain, by nilE, and, you, and, a few others, who, yes, believe in Calvanism.

I want to direct you to 2 John 18-29 , to fully understand what FAITH is given us by God But, not yet....

I want you to understand this, FIRST, small details before BIG :

Summary: Those who go out with John and the others that are not Christian, are, therefore, anti Christ , or, to put it, Scripturally quoted, 'antichrists.'

I'm sure this much we can agree with.

Then, those that left John and the other Christians were NEVER with them in the first place, and, this means they were anti Christ, their minds were NOT open to RECEIVING the faith that God measured for them. Again, though God gives each man a measure of faith. Man MUST accept that faith. Does this make sense, ohzone ? Man MUST believe on His own , 'believe in His name,' says 1 John 1:12, think it is. And then that man is 'born of God.' This is HOW that is done, no zippy, whippy regeneration and implantation happening, the man MUST choose BOTH Christ, BY FAITH, and, later, then, He MUST accept the Holy Spirit, again, this is BY FAITH.

Then, this is understanding of Eph. 2: 8-9 and add verse 10 IF you want the whole desire of God, who wants us to be His worker. We are 'His workmanship,' again, I think we have an agreement here.
ace

Now, we go back to those with John and the others who NEVER belonged (to Christ) in the first place.

What kind of freewill determinism words does John USE for those who are with Christ. Does John say that they are His no matter what, or, does John urge those who are with Him following Christ as Christians to 'remain' in Him and to 'continue' in Him.

So, although, yes, 100% agree, God KNOWS all, He is 'all and all,' and IF that does not help you understand His sovereignty then nothing else will. He is in control but He has given us FAITH, a 'measure' to us, this means, an amount of faith. Now, we do not know how much that is, but, ALL us can assume that it is ENOUGH for all, especially coupled with His mercies 'new every morning,' and His grace, which Paul let's us know is 'sufficient.'

So, here is OUR job to INCREASE our faith, how do we do that, by having FAITH Soooo complicated, eh, ohzone But, it's NOT, for Christ is who INCREASES our FAITH right, we just read 1 Cor. 3 and understand this truth. Paul waters, Apollos plants, etc. and God is the One who increases both's faith as both 'are one' working ,or, in service to the Lord, who is righteous.
Righteous=

1. (of a person or conduct) Morally right or justifiable; virtuous.
2. Perfectly wonderful; fine and genuine.)

And, how do we maintain our faith, and, righteousness (right-standing with God) ??? BY FAITH, by REMAINING in Him, by CONTINUING in Him....

Now, read this, and, notice the bold-faced words, ohzone:


1 John 2 (Let's just put it all in there for you, but notice the blackened bold words , again, I say to you)

1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Love and Hatred for Fellow Believers
3We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. 5But if anyone obeys his word, love for God[SUP]a[/SUP] is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
7Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. 8Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and in you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining.
9Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister[SUP]b[/SUP] is still in the darkness. 10Anyone who loves their brother and sister[SUP]c[/SUP] lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble. 11But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them.
Reasons for Writing
12I am writing to you, dear children,
because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.
13I am writing to you, fathers,
because you know him who is from the beginning.
I am writing to you, young men,
because you have overcome the evil one.

14I write to you, dear children,
because you know the Father.
I write to you, fathers,
because you know him who is from the beginning.
I write to you, young men,
because you are strong,
and the word of God lives in you,
and you have overcome the evil one.

On Not Loving the World (greennnice: remember, revelation, too, Scripture says, 'He who overcomes....'

15Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, love for the Father[SUP]d[/SUP] is not in them. 16For everything in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—comes not from the Father but from the world. 17The world and its desires pass away, but whoever does the will of God lives forever.
Warnings Against Denying the Son
18Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour. 19They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.

20But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.[SUP]e[/SUP] 21I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. 23No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—eternal life.

26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.

God’s Children and Sin

28And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.

29If you know that he is righteous, you know that everyone who does what is right has been born of him.

okay
thank you

 

[zone]

If all things are pre-detemined, then that would say that God would had even caused the wickedness of the wicked.

you haven't read the thread, or if you have, you skipped that part.
bye.

 

[GreenNnice]

okay
thank you

Anytime, ohzone. The Lord leads (me). You too

 

[Elin]

What I say can only be the end conclusion one is presented when that one is faced with a doctrine which says, "Christ died for me and not you". And if one refutes that with how that sounds,

Your refutation does not take into account the radically changed disposition of those who have faith.

Therefore, it posits the wrong conclusion about the affects the doctrine necessasrily has on faith.

that one is accused of not being regenerated, and if one thinks against that doctrine, then that 'not being regenerated' is expressed out as not being a child of God.

I am distinguishing between your theory of the conclusion, and the facts of the conclusion in those who are born again.

There is no doctrine that would cause one who is born again to conclude faith and obedience are not necessary.

The actual disposition, not theoretifal thinking, which results from rebirth does not allow it.

The work of the Holy Spirit in the heart of the reborn gives them to know that would be a lie.

You can continue to frame this incorrectly to justify your offense at the doctrine, but it doesn't change the bottom line.

And the bottom line is that your objection is based in a theory, of the necessary thinking which must result from this doctrine.

Your theory is not borne out in the actual facts which occur at rebirth.

I searched those two words and could not find their meaning, mind defining them.

They are Latin.

fides - intellectual assent

fiduces - intellectual assent accompanied with dispositional trust

 

[Elin]

On the contrary. A message of:
Man has a limited free will to obey/not to sin, is a pretty depressing Gospel, as I imagine most would agree

The gospel is "Jesus died for the sin of those who believe."

Nothing in the thread alters that.

 

[Elin]

I cannot agree more with you here, Zone. But, it is that pre-determination and what it implies which does contradict that 'whosoever'.

But, if it were said, "they who are in Christ, by coming to Him through faith, are pre-determined for salvation through God's foreordained salvational plan in Christ", then not a word I would have said. But, this is the message I am receiving from Elin, "everyone's eternal destination has already been pre-determined by God and not by faith", and thus, that faith mentioned about is no more a consideration, seeing that it has already been pre-determined.

And how does faith come? By hearing.

And how does hearing come? By preaching.

God uses means to bring about his ends.

Just as faith comes by the means of preaching and hearing,

so salvation comes by the means of faith.

Pre-destination does not preclude faith, God has made faith necessary as the means to salvation.

 

[Elin]

She has yet qualified pre-determination in that sense, but does say/imply that one's salvation is determined beforehand, as though we were born for hell or heaven. As though even the fall of the angels and Adam and Eve were determined to be so that God could have fulfilled His will. If all things are pre-detemined, then
that would say that God would had even caused the wickedness of the wicked. But, we know that there is no shadow in God. I really do not know why you won't consider this.

Did God cause Adam, the perfect human with perfect knowledge and free will, to sin?

He did not.

Well, there was only perfect Adam and Eve, and God.

So who caused the sin?

That doctrine of determinism would be what is considered wiggling around with the Scriptures which state, and you agree, that whosoever believes in the Son is saved.

Nothing in the thread states, or means, otherwise.

 

[Elin]

There is freewill choice though, ohzone. That is what needs to be understood, and, sadly, is not, for certain, by nilE, and, you, and, a few others, who, yes, believe in Calvanism. . .

. . .Now, we go back to those with John and the others who NEVER belonged (to Christ) in the first place.

What kind of freewill determinism words does John USE for those who are with Christ. Does John say that they are His no matter what, or, does John urge those who are with Him following Christ as Christians to 'remain' in Him and to 'continue' in Him.

The NT is filled with warnings to believers about remaining in the faith.

Warnings are one of the means God uses to keep us safe, to keep us from spiritual harm.

You do the same with your children. You keep them safe from traffic by warning them not to play in the street.
The obedient child heeds the warning, stays out of the street, and is not harmed by traffic.

Likewise, God warns the faithful to keep them safe from spiritual harm.
Those who are born again heed his warnings and are not harmed by the danger.

Those who are not born again do not heed the warnings, are harmed, and thereby reveal they were not saved in the first place.

Warnings to those who are born again do not mean they can fall away, they are simply the means by which God guarantees they do not fall away.

So, although, yes, 100% agree, God KNOWS all, He is 'all and all,'. . .He is in control but He has given us FAITH, a 'measure' to us, this means, an amount of faith. Now, we do not know how much that is, but, ALL us can assume that it is ENOUGH for all, especially coupled with His mercies 'new every morning,' and His grace, which Paul let's us know is 'sufficient.'

So, here is OUR job to INCREASE our faith, how do we do that, by having FAITH

Just want to clarify, so that we are all on the same page here.

God does not give a measure of faith to all mankind.

Paul was addressing Christians in Ro 12:3, 6 when he stated: ". . .think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. . .we have different gifts according to the grace given us."

The unregenerate have not been given a measure of faith apart from rebirth.

Only believers have been given a measure of faith.

 

[cfultz3]

And how does faith come? By hearing.

And how does hearing come? By preaching.

God uses means to bring about his ends.

Just as faith comes by the means of preaching and hearing,

so salvation comes by the means of faith.

Pre-destination does not preclude faith, God has made faith necessary as the means to salvation.

Would you agree to:

"they who are in Christ, by (whosoever) coming to Him through faith, are pre-determined for salvation through God's foreordained salvational plan in Christ"

 

[GreenNnice]

The NT is filled with warnings to believers about remaining in the faith.

Warnings are one of the means God uses to keep us safe, to keep us from spiritual harm.

You do the same with your children. You keep them safe from traffic by warning them not to play in the street.
The obedient child heeds the warning, stays out of the street, and is not harmed by traffic.

Likewise, God warns the faithful to keep them safe from spiritual harm.
Those who are born again heed his warnings and are not harmed by the danger.

Those who are not born again do not heed the warnings, are harmed, and thereby reveal they were not saved in the first place.

Warnings to those who are born again do not mean they can fall away, they are simply the means by which God guarantees they do not fall away.

No the WARNING is MUCH more grave in nature and meaning than you perceive, nilE . John urges those in Him to REMAIN in Him, to CONTINUE in Him. Does He say He is saying this, nilE, because He doesn't want their poor little spiritual health to wane? NO ! He is saying it so that those who are IN HIM, not who were never Him in the first place, as THOSE, nilE (are you with ), are THOSE who were 'antichrists,' or NEVER with 'them' (Christians) in the first place.


Just want to clarify, so that we are all on the same page here.

God does not give a measure of faith to all mankind.

Paul was addressing Christians in Ro 12:3, 6 when he stated: ". . .think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. . .we have different gifts according to the grace given us."

The unregenerate have not been given a measure of faith apart from rebirth.

Only believers have been given a measure of faith.

No, again. EVERYONE is given FAITH. God is faithful to ALL, He gives all a chance to believe in Him.
Common sense tells us: we must have something to believe with, nilE, and, that 'something' is FAITH :)

Does green make sense, nilE

 

[mark54]

The gospel is "Jesus died for the sin of those who believe."

Nothing in the thread alters that.

Can I ask you to elaborate a little as to what exactly a person must believe?

You said your theology is purely the bible, so is mine. I couldn't care less what any theologian or scholar says if it contradicts the bible or its requirements. I imagine you would agree going by what you have previously stated. So what exactly must a person believe and do in order to be saverd/inherit eternal life?
What would you tell a desperate soul, hungry to hear the Gospel unto salvation?

 

[cfultz3]

Did God cause Adam, the perfect human with perfect knowledge and free will, to sin?

He did not.

Well, there was only perfect Adam and Eve, and God.

So who caused the sin?


Nothing in the thread states, or means, otherwise.

So, if God did not cause them to sin, but by that sin they received death unto themselves, then how can it be said that God has pre-determined one's destination if what they did was the consequence of their own action? If pre-determination is correct, then would not God had determined them to sin?

 

[GreenNnice]

And how does faith come? By hearing.

And how does hearing come? By preaching.

God uses means to bring about his ends.

Just as faith comes by the means of preaching and hearing,

so salvation comes by the means of faith.

Pre-destination does not preclude faith, God has made faith necessary as the means to salvation.

Ahh, yes, nilE, YOU can get it !!!

By FAITH, this is how you come to believe, by faith in Him, He draws us/chooses us, but we MUST then choose Him . Some will. Some won't But, we who believe MUST . He is God, He is Jesus, He is Holy Spirit, He is the Word of God

 

[GreenNnice]

Can I ask you to elaborate a little as to what exactly a person must believe?

You said your theology is purely the bible, so is mine. I couldn't care less what any theologian or scholar says if it contradicts the bible or its requirements. I imagine you would agree going by what you have previously stated. So what exactly must a person believe and do in order to be saverd/inherit eternal life?
What would you tell a desperate soul, hungry to here the Gospel unto salvation?

YOU cannot believe on your own. You are an unergenerated man. YOU must have something to believe on, a substance, and, THAT substance is FAITH