Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man
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He must be born again.
If I see signs of the Holy Spirit at work in his heaert, if I see signs of an inclination to God,
the first thing I would tell him is that he must first agree beforehand that he will believe and obey God,
that if he is only seeking fire insurance, the door is closed to him.
I would tell him that he must agree with God that he is a sinner, without hope because of his sin,
but that God himself provided a remedy for his sin in his Son.
I would tell him that God's remedy is Christ's substitution for sinful condemned men in receiving God's just penalty on their sin.
I would tell him that if he believed he is justly condemned by God for his sin,
that if he trusted Christ's remedy to pay for his sin,
and that if he embraced faith and obedience to God and his word written,
then he has Biblical faith, and is thereby saved from God's wrath on his sin at the final judgment.
Then I would offer to disciple him in the growth of his faith and obedience through knowledge of God's word written and prayer.
If I see signs of the Holy Spirit at work in his heaert, if I see signs of an inclination to God,
the first thing I would tell him is that he must first agree beforehand that he will believe and obey God,
that if he is only seeking fire insurance, the door is closed to him.
I would tell him that he must agree with God that he is a sinner, without hope because of his sin,
but that God himself provided a remedy for his sin in his Son.
I would tell him that God's remedy is Christ's substitution for sinful condemned men in receiving God's just penalty on their sin.
I would tell him that if he believed he is justly condemned by God for his sin,
that if he trusted Christ's remedy to pay for his sin,
and that if he embraced faith and obedience to God and his word written,
then he has Biblical faith, and is thereby saved from God's wrath on his sin at the final judgment.
Then I would offer to disciple him in the growth of his faith and obedience through knowledge of God's word written and prayer.
Nope. . .predetermination and cause are not the same thing.
God can predetermine gravity, but but he didn't cause your broken leg when you jumped off the roof.
God can predetermine the conditions in which a perfect man with perfect knowledge and perfect free will could make a perfectly free choice of obedience or disobedience, but he is not the cause of the wrong choice.
God can predetermine gravity, but but he didn't cause your broken leg when you jumped off the roof.
God can predetermine the conditions in which a perfect man with perfect knowledge and perfect free will could make a perfectly free choice of obedience or disobedience, but he is not the cause of the wrong choice.
C
So then, you agree that one's salvation is not pre-determined in the sense that all things are pre-determined but based on a free choice of either obedience or disobedience?
But to say that all things are pre-determined, with the emphasize on 'all things', is to say that He is the cause of that wrong choice. I agree that all things have been set-up for a end purpose, that is, a return to that relationship once lost in Eden, but I cannot agree to the selectiveness of limited atonement in the sense that one's salvation is foreordained. Especially when you have just said that it is free choice (I even agree that the choice itself is part of God's determination in setting up His plan for salvation and its end result).
If you would, just explain to me in an acceptable manner how that, if all things are pre-determined, we are born for hell or heaven.
Are you saying this: there is only a heaven and a hell and no other place which has been created for a final destination. One has been determined to go to either based on their acceptance of the Son of God. It has been determined that those who will believe will receive everlasting life and those who will not believe will receive everlasting destruction?
But to say that all things are pre-determined, with the emphasize on 'all things', is to say that He is the cause of that wrong choice. I agree that all things have been set-up for a end purpose, that is, a return to that relationship once lost in Eden, but I cannot agree to the selectiveness of limited atonement in the sense that one's salvation is foreordained. Especially when you have just said that it is free choice (I even agree that the choice itself is part of God's determination in setting up His plan for salvation and its end result).
If you would, just explain to me in an acceptable manner how that, if all things are pre-determined, we are born for hell or heaven.
Are you saying this: there is only a heaven and a hell and no other place which has been created for a final destination. One has been determined to go to either based on their acceptance of the Son of God. It has been determined that those who will believe will receive everlasting life and those who will not believe will receive everlasting destruction?
G
YOU cannot believe on your own. You are an unergenerated man. YOU must have something to believe on, a substance, and, THAT substance is FAITH
nilE: Not Biblical.
______________
Why is what I said 'not biblical?'
OK, then, answer me this question, what comes first, belief in something, or, faith in something? In other words, can you believe (hear) something before you have faith in whatever it is you are THINKING of believing in?
Or, if you cannot believe something before you have faith in it, how is this true?
Two questions, not in any particular order, and, in summary: What comes first? Belief in something, or, faith in something ? These are not biblical questions
Yet
G
YES! He DOES cause your broken leg. IF God wanted it, YOU could fall from a 10-story building and NOT break even ONE bone in your body . In fact, some have had such events happen and it is described as what afterward ?
I LOVE that song by 'Mike And The Mechanics,' nilE, it's called, ''All I need is a miracle."
I LOVE that song by 'Mike And The Mechanics,' nilE, it's called, ''All I need is a miracle."
The grammatical construction of Ephesians does not present it that way.
Paul begins with the accomplished fact of the matter, accomplished before the foundations of the world.
"God has (past tense) blessed us in the heavenly realms (realm of spiritual realities) with every spiritual blessing in Christ."
"In Christ" is where the blessings are found which we have been chosen to receive.
The grammatical construction is that we were chosen (to be placed in Christ) to receive the blessings that abide there,
not chosen because we were already in Christ (how did we get there?), which then qualifies us to receive the blessings.
The choosing is of the individual to receive blessings that are located only in Christ, therefore, the individual is placed in Christ.
It is not that those already in Christ are then qualified to be chosen to receive the blessings..
And the blessings we were chosen to receive, which we receive in/from Christ are: sonship, remission of sin, glorification, and the gift of the Spirit to seal us as God's possession forever.
And all for the praise (glory) of God's grace (v.6).
Therefore, the believer's conversion is no accident, it is an act of God which had its place in an eternal plan of God to bless him.
Paul begins with the accomplished fact of the matter, accomplished before the foundations of the world.
"God has (past tense) blessed us in the heavenly realms (realm of spiritual realities) with every spiritual blessing in Christ."
"In Christ" is where the blessings are found which we have been chosen to receive.
The grammatical construction is that we were chosen (to be placed in Christ) to receive the blessings that abide there,
not chosen because we were already in Christ (how did we get there?), which then qualifies us to receive the blessings.
The choosing is of the individual to receive blessings that are located only in Christ, therefore, the individual is placed in Christ.
It is not that those already in Christ are then qualified to be chosen to receive the blessings..
And the blessings we were chosen to receive, which we receive in/from Christ are: sonship, remission of sin, glorification, and the gift of the Spirit to seal us as God's possession forever.
And all for the praise (glory) of God's grace (v.6).
Therefore, the believer's conversion is no accident, it is an act of God which had its place in an eternal plan of God to bless him.
You need to review the post on free will here, because your misunderstanding of it causes you to frame this incorrectly, and I'm not going to cover that again here.
I've already demonstrated to you that pre-determination and cause are not the same thing.
You are using them as equivalent.
What is an acceptable manner?
There is the logical consequence of soverign control with omniscience.
God knows before one is conceived whether they will reject Christ and go to hell.
If he allows that conception to go forth, then is he not responsible for that soul being in hell?
He could have kept that soul out of hell by not allowing the conception to go forth, but he chose to let it go forth anyway.
My point is you can't escape God's determinism to heaven or hell, no matter what your theology is.
It's the consequence of omniscience and sovereign control, as with the sparrows and the hairs on your head.
So there's no point in trying to eliminate in Christian theology what cannot be eliminated anywhere in the universe.
That is not what I am saying about predestination, the determination of your destiny before (pre-destination) the foundations of the world.
I've already demonstrated to you that pre-determination and cause are not the same thing.
You are using them as equivalent.
What is an acceptable manner?
There is the logical consequence of soverign control with omniscience.
God knows before one is conceived whether they will reject Christ and go to hell.
If he allows that conception to go forth, then is he not responsible for that soul being in hell?
He could have kept that soul out of hell by not allowing the conception to go forth, but he chose to let it go forth anyway.
My point is you can't escape God's determinism to heaven or hell, no matter what your theology is.
It's the consequence of omniscience and sovereign control, as with the sparrows and the hairs on your head.
So there's no point in trying to eliminate in Christian theology what cannot be eliminated anywhere in the universe.
That is not what I am saying about predestination, the determination of your destiny before (pre-destination) the foundations of the world.
YOU cannot believe on your own. You are an unergenerated man. YOU must have something to believe on, a substance, and, THAT substance is FAITH
nilE: Not Biblical.
______________
Why is what I said 'not biblical?'
OK, then, answer me this question, what comes first, belief in something, or, faith in something? In other words, can you believe (hear) something before you have faith in whatever it is you are THINKING of believing in?
Or, if you cannot believe something before you have faith in it, how is this true?
Two questions, not in any particular order, and, in summary: What comes first? Belief in something, or, faith in something ? These are not biblical questions
Yet
That statement does not go to the nature of obedience, but is a condition of sincerity that must be met if he is going to transact with the God with whom we have to do. . .in case I have read the signs incorrectly about him.
I'm probing for conviction of sin, for that is what salvation is, from God's just condemnation on his sin at the final judgment.
No, I'm just informing him of the cost of discipleship.
Then I would offer to disciple him in the growth of his faith and obedience through knowledge of God's word written and prayer.
Discipleship would cover the rest.
I'm probing for conviction of sin, for that is what salvation is, from God's just condemnation on his sin at the final judgment.
No, I'm just informing him of the cost of discipleship.
Then I would offer to disciple him in the growth of his faith and obedience through knowledge of God's word written and prayer.
Discipleship would cover the rest.
G
Why not? How do you believe in something, ANYTHING, nilE, isn't it 'by faith,' doesn't that, ultimately, have to be one's motivation to believe in something ?
No biblical distinction between the two words, belief and faith? What about Abraham who's faith was counted for righteousness? <---- This faith from obedience to God in willingness to kill his only son.
You must just not thought this completely through, nilE. Of course, there is a distinct difference between 'believe' and 'faith.'
Again, you have to believe in something, and, the only way you can do that is by faith. Some want to say we believe by grace, but again , THAT is a faith in the 'grace,' whether one's talking about God's grace or Son dying on cross motivating your faith to believe in Him or just some grace God's given you in your life, like, maybe, a promotion at your job that you really don't deserve but you can see easily God's hand in the matter guiding your success.
So, please, explain to me why there is no biblical distinction between belief and faith, explain why, to you, nilE, they are 'the same thing.'
No biblical distinction between the two words, belief and faith? What about Abraham who's faith was counted for righteousness? <---- This faith from obedience to God in willingness to kill his only son.
You must just not thought this completely through, nilE. Of course, there is a distinct difference between 'believe' and 'faith.'
Again, you have to believe in something, and, the only way you can do that is by faith. Some want to say we believe by grace, but again , THAT is a faith in the 'grace,' whether one's talking about God's grace or Son dying on cross motivating your faith to believe in Him or just some grace God's given you in your life, like, maybe, a promotion at your job that you really don't deserve but you can see easily God's hand in the matter guiding your success.
So, please, explain to me why there is no biblical distinction between belief and faith, explain why, to you, nilE, they are 'the same thing.'
Charles Spurgeon(a Calvanist I am pretty sure) said that when a person becomes a Christian it is like approaching a huge mountain, far too steep to climb, but most try. No matter how hard they try they always fail, for the mountain is too steep, and they always end up back where they started. But at the foot of the mountain was a narrow gorge, so narrow most failed to see it, it was the way of Christ and led to the other side. He likened the mountain to the way of law/styriving to be good enough/not sin in your own strength
There's a problem for many in Christendom. They become Christians, the Holy Spirit enters their life, they are at that moment born again, he has brought the new life to them. But what of the sin, the sin they desperately do not want for the Spirit, under the terms of the new covenant has written God's good and Holy laws on their heart and mind. For upon a genuine conversion the new convert in their heart wants to obey, they have a conscience as to everything they do wrong, this is the work of the Holy Spirit in their life, they have been born anew.
But they are also still in a body of human flesh and resoning. And now they are convicted of their sin, the natural mind tells them they must strive to defeat the sin, in order to be/remain a Christian, for they must live according to God's good and Holy laws/his requirements, to suggest otherwise would be of the devil, and so they try and climb the mountain but can't do it. Many sincere people give up crushed, and many become hard nosed, they put on an act in church each week, or when they meet other Christians, pretending to be something they know in their heart they are not nor can be.
And some are like this for their minsters do not tell them any different, they infer that is the route they must follow, strive to defeat the sin in your own effort, and if you do not succeed and reach a certain postion in a short space of time your salvation will be called into question
But for the Christian who knows the truth, they know of themselves they can do nothing. They are helpless, it is for them to look away from themselves and to Christ, and to trust him to do fo them what they know they cannot do for themselves, and the more they do this, tjhe more the Holy Spirit can work in their life/sanctify them, for they are following the truth of the Gospel. They then cannot boast of themselves, as Spurgeon also said, he thought God may have chosen to save(and keep) us by fGrace, through faith as this cuts out boasting. And so the convert following the truth is overwhelmed by love and gratitude for what God does for them, through the faith they have been given as a free gift, they glory in what God has donbe for them through Christ.
The person who in effect follows the way of law and their own effort to strive to be good enough cannot understand the person who sees obediance through faith, to them they seek a license to sin, for they do not understand the truth of the Gospel and are left crushed by the heavy loads
But Jesus said, he only gives light burdens
'Obediance comes from faith' 8it is the cxore to true sauccess in the Christian walk
For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace(through faith) Rom6:14
I didn't see any other points of contentioin in your post, so only respondsed to this one
There's a problem for many in Christendom. They become Christians, the Holy Spirit enters their life, they are at that moment born again, he has brought the new life to them. But what of the sin, the sin they desperately do not want for the Spirit, under the terms of the new covenant has written God's good and Holy laws on their heart and mind. For upon a genuine conversion the new convert in their heart wants to obey, they have a conscience as to everything they do wrong, this is the work of the Holy Spirit in their life, they have been born anew.
But they are also still in a body of human flesh and resoning. And now they are convicted of their sin, the natural mind tells them they must strive to defeat the sin, in order to be/remain a Christian, for they must live according to God's good and Holy laws/his requirements, to suggest otherwise would be of the devil, and so they try and climb the mountain but can't do it. Many sincere people give up crushed, and many become hard nosed, they put on an act in church each week, or when they meet other Christians, pretending to be something they know in their heart they are not nor can be.
And some are like this for their minsters do not tell them any different, they infer that is the route they must follow, strive to defeat the sin in your own effort, and if you do not succeed and reach a certain postion in a short space of time your salvation will be called into question
But for the Christian who knows the truth, they know of themselves they can do nothing. They are helpless, it is for them to look away from themselves and to Christ, and to trust him to do fo them what they know they cannot do for themselves, and the more they do this, tjhe more the Holy Spirit can work in their life/sanctify them, for they are following the truth of the Gospel. They then cannot boast of themselves, as Spurgeon also said, he thought God may have chosen to save(and keep) us by fGrace, through faith as this cuts out boasting. And so the convert following the truth is overwhelmed by love and gratitude for what God does for them, through the faith they have been given as a free gift, they glory in what God has donbe for them through Christ.
The person who in effect follows the way of law and their own effort to strive to be good enough cannot understand the person who sees obediance through faith, to them they seek a license to sin, for they do not understand the truth of the Gospel and are left crushed by the heavy loads
But Jesus said, he only gives light burdens
'Obediance comes from faith' 8it is the cxore to true sauccess in the Christian walk
For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace(through faith) Rom6:14
I didn't see any other points of contentioin in your post, so only respondsed to this one
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G
Yes !!!
Excellent post, markymark. The only way that we can understand we are FREE from our sins is realizing the Son saved us by grace and we do that one way and ONE WAY ONLY.......
....THROUGH FAITH. Stepping forward in Him, with His leading, by 'FAITH IN HIM,' says Phil. 3:8 or 9. We then 'gain Christ'. This hypothesis is very simple.
------------------------
nilE: Through him we receive grace and Apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obediance that comes from faith Rom1:5 it
Yes! No grace comes from belief, but through FAITH , 'from faith,' as you put it nilE !! Sometimes, I actually think you and I are closer to understanding the 'truth' of faith in concurrence than it appears.
Yes !!! nilE, by FAITH, we believers BELIEVE our FAITH comes from God, who gives us our 'measure,' right? He
I think we both agree that God does NOT say anything after, at first, saying in Scripture that He gives us a 'measure of faith .' Am I right? We gain from our FAITH in HIm an increase in being able to serve Him, do more for Him, for His glory.
We gain what, green? Peace, comfort, rewards in heaven, and, with all that is an understanding of Him, as He speaks His truth to us to understand, and, not so coincidentally, names of the Holy Spirit, who works in our lives by faith, OUR faith, sure, God gave us our faith in the first place, but He does not then just MAKE us believe, we believe BY FAITH, nilE. I hope and pray you can see the 'truth' of what is said here. The Spirit of truth, the Spirit of understanding, He in us wants us to know what is being said in Scripture and the only way we can now is by faith. We CANNOT hear unless we have FAITH.
Unless we have belief?? No !!! We accept Christ by belief, but we then THROUGH FAITH can understand His words to us and His Word to us. HOw He speaks to you, how He speaks to me, IS different, individual, just like the gifts that He 'individually wills' as He pleases.
Faith comes from hearing, and, hearing by the word of God. So, in order to even HEAR what He is telling us we must HEAR what He speaks to us through His Word. By faith, by faith, by faith, IF nothing else gets through to you, nilE, we are beings who will LIVE forevermore by faith in Him. No other way, NONE. YOU will LOSE your life for Him, however that happens, not sure if it will be like John on an island like Patmos, or, martyr's death like the other apostles of Jesus or just old age, but YOU will lose your life for Him. Scripture is clear of he who loses his life for my sake will keep it but he who keeps his life (selfishly) will lose it. You can ONLY lose your life and find Him by FAITH !! No other way, your human mind can't do it !! You need to follow Him and that does NOT take belief, it takes faith. You believed, it's FINISHED !! YOU MUST NOW, nilE, live by faith. The just WILL live by faith
Job 42:5 My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you.[HR][/HR]Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?[HR][/HR]Galatians 3:5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?[HR][/HR]Colossians 3:16 Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts.[HR][/HR]1 Thessalonians 2:13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe.[HR][/HR]Hebrews 4:2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed.
The bold-faced verse especially read nilE. This verse DOES speak of 'belief,' but the substance of that belief is much more, as Paul explains,, it IS faith, you are "His workmanship" and this Eph. 2:10 verse follows the verses that MOST speak of the reality of what 'faith' is , in Eph. 2: 8,9 . Faith is what, ultimately, saves us, God's grace, but we are saved through OUR having faith of His faith having been given (measured) to us , which is what 2:8b says of it being not of ourselves, and, being a free gift . We have NO entitlement to having concocted our OWN faith. God measured it to us , but we will WORK for Him by faith . Through faith, we will be saved, but, 'by faith' we gain Him ,we get to know Him more, and, we MUST love Him in this knowing of Him, embrace Him, or, we will NOT see Him.
Excellent post, markymark. The only way that we can understand we are FREE from our sins is realizing the Son saved us by grace and we do that one way and ONE WAY ONLY.......
....THROUGH FAITH. Stepping forward in Him, with His leading, by 'FAITH IN HIM,' says Phil. 3:8 or 9. We then 'gain Christ'. This hypothesis is very simple.
------------------------
nilE: Through him we receive grace and Apostleship to call all the Gentiles to the obediance that comes from faith Rom1:5 it
Yes! No grace comes from belief, but through FAITH , 'from faith,' as you put it nilE !! Sometimes, I actually think you and I are closer to understanding the 'truth' of faith in concurrence than it appears.
Yes !!! nilE, by FAITH, we believers BELIEVE our FAITH comes from God, who gives us our 'measure,' right? He
I think we both agree that God does NOT say anything after, at first, saying in Scripture that He gives us a 'measure of faith .' Am I right? We gain from our FAITH in HIm an increase in being able to serve Him, do more for Him, for His glory.
We gain what, green? Peace, comfort, rewards in heaven, and, with all that is an understanding of Him, as He speaks His truth to us to understand, and, not so coincidentally, names of the Holy Spirit, who works in our lives by faith, OUR faith, sure, God gave us our faith in the first place, but He does not then just MAKE us believe, we believe BY FAITH, nilE. I hope and pray you can see the 'truth' of what is said here. The Spirit of truth, the Spirit of understanding, He in us wants us to know what is being said in Scripture and the only way we can now is by faith. We CANNOT hear unless we have FAITH.
Unless we have belief?? No !!! We accept Christ by belief, but we then THROUGH FAITH can understand His words to us and His Word to us. HOw He speaks to you, how He speaks to me, IS different, individual, just like the gifts that He 'individually wills' as He pleases.
Faith comes from hearing, and, hearing by the word of God. So, in order to even HEAR what He is telling us we must HEAR what He speaks to us through His Word. By faith, by faith, by faith, IF nothing else gets through to you, nilE, we are beings who will LIVE forevermore by faith in Him. No other way, NONE. YOU will LOSE your life for Him, however that happens, not sure if it will be like John on an island like Patmos, or, martyr's death like the other apostles of Jesus or just old age, but YOU will lose your life for Him. Scripture is clear of he who loses his life for my sake will keep it but he who keeps his life (selfishly) will lose it. You can ONLY lose your life and find Him by FAITH !! No other way, your human mind can't do it !! You need to follow Him and that does NOT take belief, it takes faith. You believed, it's FINISHED !! YOU MUST NOW, nilE, live by faith. The just WILL live by faith
Job 42:5 My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you.[HR][/HR]Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?[HR][/HR]Galatians 3:5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?[HR][/HR]Colossians 3:16 Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts.[HR][/HR]1 Thessalonians 2:13 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe.[HR][/HR]Hebrews 4:2 For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed.
The bold-faced verse especially read nilE. This verse DOES speak of 'belief,' but the substance of that belief is much more, as Paul explains,, it IS faith, you are "His workmanship" and this Eph. 2:10 verse follows the verses that MOST speak of the reality of what 'faith' is , in Eph. 2: 8,9 . Faith is what, ultimately, saves us, God's grace, but we are saved through OUR having faith of His faith having been given (measured) to us , which is what 2:8b says of it being not of ourselves, and, being a free gift . We have NO entitlement to having concocted our OWN faith. God measured it to us , but we will WORK for Him by faith . Through faith, we will be saved, but, 'by faith' we gain Him ,we get to know Him more, and, we MUST love Him in this knowing of Him, embrace Him, or, we will NOT see Him.
Don't forget I didn't write the Scriptures that make no distinction between belief and faith.
So I am not the one to ask why they don't.
". . .believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead. . .For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified (saved). . .Anyone who trusts (believes) in him will never be put to shame." (Ro 10:9-11)
So I am not the one to ask why they don't.
". . .believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead. . .For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified (saved). . .Anyone who trusts (believes) in him will never be put to shame." (Ro 10:9-11)
Spurgeon deals with the nature of obedience.
I explained that was not my purpose in my question.
That obedience comes from faith and is the work of the Holy Spirit in the heart of the believer, and not just a matter of one's own striving, will be dealt with in discipling.
Well, since that also really is not a point of contention, we are agreed on what must be believed to be saved.
So my understanding of the sovereignty of God in salvation does not impair the meaning of the gospel.
And another objection to God's sovereignty is removed.
I explained that was not my purpose in my question.
That obedience comes from faith and is the work of the Holy Spirit in the heart of the believer, and not just a matter of one's own striving, will be dealt with in discipling.
Well, since that also really is not a point of contention, we are agreed on what must be believed to be saved.
So my understanding of the sovereignty of God in salvation does not impair the meaning of the gospel.
And another objection to God's sovereignty is removed.
C
Why not? How do you believe in something, ANYTHING, nilE, isn't it 'by faith,' doesn't that, ultimately, have to be one's motivation to believe in something ?
No biblical distinction between the two words, belief and faith? What about Abraham who's faith was counted for righteousness? <---- This faith from obedience to God in willingness to kill his only son.
You must just not thought this completely through, nilE. Of course, there is a distinct difference between 'believe' and 'faith.'
Again, you have to believe in something, and, the only way you can do that is by faith. Some want to say we believe by grace, but again , THAT is a faith in the 'grace,' whether one's talking about God's grace or Son dying on cross motivating your faith to believe in Him or just some grace God's given you in your life, like, maybe, a promotion at your job that you really don't deserve but you can see easily God's hand in the matter guiding your success.
So, please, explain to me why there is no biblical distinction between belief and faith, explain why, to you, nilE, they are 'the same thing.'
No biblical distinction between the two words, belief and faith? What about Abraham who's faith was counted for righteousness? <---- This faith from obedience to God in willingness to kill his only son.
You must just not thought this completely through, nilE. Of course, there is a distinct difference between 'believe' and 'faith.'
Again, you have to believe in something, and, the only way you can do that is by faith. Some want to say we believe by grace, but again , THAT is a faith in the 'grace,' whether one's talking about God's grace or Son dying on cross motivating your faith to believe in Him or just some grace God's given you in your life, like, maybe, a promotion at your job that you really don't deserve but you can see easily God's hand in the matter guiding your success.
So, please, explain to me why there is no biblical distinction between belief and faith, explain why, to you, nilE, they are 'the same thing.'
G4100 - to believe
1) to think to be true, to be persuaded of, to credit, place confidence in
1a) of the thing believed
1a1) to credit, have confidence
1b) in a moral or religious reference
1b1) used in the NT of the conviction and trust to which a man is impelled by a certain inner and higher prerogative and law of soul
1b2) to trust in Jesus or God as able to aid either in obtaining or in doing something: saving faith
2) to entrust a thing to one, i.e. his fidelity
2a) to be intrusted with a thing
Part of Speech: verb
G4102 - faith
1) conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man’s relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
1a) relating to God
1a1) the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
1b) relating to Christ
1b1) a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
1c) the religious beliefs of Christians
1d) belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the same
2) fidelity, faithfulness
2a) the character of one who can be relied on
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