For then shall be great tribulation

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CDavid

Guest
#1
There will be a great tribulation. Knowing this, shouldn't this be of greater concern than it seems it is among Christians.

Whether you believe the rapture fairy tale, or you believe what the Bible clearly says, shouldn't Christians begin storing up provisions for that period.

Knowing that the elect will need these provisions, we should prepare.

Even if I did believe the fly away fairy tale, I wouldn't be much of a love my neighbor Christian, if I let this time come without trying to make life a little better for the elect, who will be persecuted.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
787
113
#2
That's why my garage is full of food, fuel, and medical supplies. Tribulation or earthquake, we should be prepared.
 
T

Therapon

Guest
#3
That's why my garage is full of food, fuel, and medical supplies. Tribulation or earthquake, we should be prepared.
Unlike the second-coming fables we usually read here, you guys are making a lot of sense. The verse you quoted, Matthew 24:21 was spoken by the Lord in 32-34 A.D. so the tribulation Jesus spoke of would be future to His time, but not ours. Millions of Christians have been butchered during the Christian era, in tortures unimaginable. I wouldn't want to tell those suffering brethren they weren't in the "great tribulation."

Furthermore, 24:29 states: "But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun
(Mal 4:2 shows the Sun to be Jesus)
shall be darkened
(people can no longer see the Lord because of gross sin on the Earth),
and the moon shall not give her light
(The moon has no light of it's own, all it can do is reflect the light of the Sun, so the moon is the church),
and the stars shall fall from heaven,
(stars are messengers, Rev 1:20, so church leaders will no longer teach the true Gospel)
and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken."

Doesn't that understanding fit the world's spiritual conditions today?
 
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A

Abiding

Guest
#4
alternative interpretation to therepon:

[video=youtube;8COB4_i5rcA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8COB4_i5rcA[/video]
 
C

carey

Guest
#5
Sooo is there no rapture? And if not why do today's preacher's use scripture to say that there is a rapture? Sorry if this sounds stupid I just want to understand
 

Radius

Senior Member
Feb 11, 2013
1,171
181
63
#6
I believe there is a rapture.
 
D

Donkeyfish07

Guest
#7
Sooo is there no rapture? And if not why do today's preacher's use scripture to say that there is a rapture? Sorry if this sounds stupid I just want to understand
The word rapture isn't actually in the bible......most people are referring to mark 13:27 where it says

"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

You can read mark from 13:24 to 13:27 to see that the gathering part of it happens after the great tribulation and the sun and moon are darkened.

Why it's taught the way it is in Churches is something I can't answer for you. I don't know how that whole thing got started to be honest.
 
Feb 11, 2012
1,358
8
0
#8
There will be a great tribulation. Knowing this, shouldn't this be of greater concern than it seems it is among Christians.

Whether you believe the rapture fairy tale, or you believe what the Bible clearly says, shouldn't Christians begin storing up provisions for that period.

Knowing that the elect will need these provisions, we should prepare.

Even if I did believe the fly away fairy tale, I wouldn't be much of a love my neighbor Christian, if I let this time come without trying to make life a little better for the elect, who will be persecuted.
I wouldnt fret over a great tribulation, Christianity is in great tribulation today, many are on the wide road to destruction, and have no clue about the end times!

Thief in the Night!

For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 1Thess5:2

Today a Defiled Church waits anxiously for the Return of the Lord, to Rapture them out of their tribulations and usher in the Anti-Christ. They all hope to Escape the Wrath of God because they believe in Jesus and MANY are Cashing in on their delusion. Since the turn of the Twentieth Century teachers and preachers have been making predictions and writing books about the Return of Christ. ALL of it is based on the fallacy that came directly out of the early 1800’s, which introduced this false teaching into the Main stream systems.

In Ancient times the early Christians viewed the Return of the Lord as the Final Trumpet and Judgment of mankind. Although some second Century Saints adopted the Jewish view that a temporary Messianic Kingdom would reign on earth, according to Rev20. Among these were Justin Martyr, Irenaeus and Tertullian. They divided the Resurrection of the Just and un-just by this Thousand year reign of Christ in the New Jerusalem. Their understanding was based on what they understood as un-fulfilled prophecies of Isaiah concerning Abraham’s inheritance of the land. Since Father Abraham had yet to inherit any land, they believed God would finalize this prophecy and bring it about. Thus John’s 20th Chapter of Revelation was also literal. Satan would be bound for a thousand years and Christ would rule.

This belief, called: Premillennialism, was widely accepted in early times, but it was NOT written into any Creeds or Doctrinal devotions of the time. Generally all early Saints expected an imminent Return of Christ and then the Judgment of the world. No one espoused a Secret Rapture theory or divided the End times into some kind of Dispensations that included a seven year tribulation period. By the third century however it was Augustine who set the tone for future views of Christ’s Return, to one extent or another. He himself shifted his views during his lifetime to amillennialism, which denies that Christ will have a literal reign on earth and that His authority was spiritual in nature and extended to the present Church until its time was finished and then the Judgment. This held fairly firm until the early Reformation with few exceptions.

In the early 1700’s there was a radical shift to millenarianism, which teaches that by social and religious upheaval a New Kingdom on Earth would be ushered in and a general reform of mankind would take place under Christian leadership. This came about with the decline of the Catholic Church and rise of Protestantism. Some notable teachers however, still held to a literal Millennium and return of Christ to Judge the world and set up His Kingdom on earth. But NO ONE taught a Secret Rapture of Believers until a man named: John Nelson Darby first proposed a Pre-tribulation Rapture theory in 1827. His views caught hold through a series of Bible Conferences in 1878 where his Dispensationalism was introduced. As a result many books were written on the subject including the Scofiled Reference Bible, published in 1909.

The Popularization of the Term RAPTURE came about through Darby’s teaching and was prominent among the Plymouth Brethren. The theories mixed Premillennial teaching with Dispensationalism and was further brought into main stream denominations by William Eugene Blackstone who published a book, ‘Jesus is Coming Soon, in 1908, which sold over a Million copies. Combined with the Scofiled Bible, this teaching became entrenched in the Churches throughout the 20th Century and is widely held to this day.

By 1957 MOST Churches were teaching a Pre-Tribulation Rapture of the Church followed by a Seven Year period in which the anti-Christ would rise, deceive the world, dispense a Mark of some sort, behead anyone who refused to follow him and finally be Judged at the Return of Christ. In 1957 a Baptist theologian from Dallas Theological Seminary, named John Walvoord, authored a book called: ‘The Rapture Question’ which sold very well and was followed by several more books by others. But the False teaching really caught on in the 1970’s when Hal Lindsey published ‘The late Great Planet Earth’ which out did them all, selling over 15 million copies! Lindsey claimed the Rapture was imminent and Armageddon was just around the corner. At the time the European Community consisted of only Ten nations out of the remnant of old Europe. This fit into his twisted understanding of the Beast with the Ten horns in Revelation. As a result Millions of Professing Christians were dubbed by this man as he made a fortune promoting his books and secretly committing adultery on his wife and family.

Others naturally had to jump on the band wagon since the churches were swallowing these fallacies hook, line and sinker. One promoter who really cashed in was Tim LaHaye in 1995 with his ‘Left Behind’ series which swept the Church World like wild fire. His books were made into movies and shown in churches all over the world. Needless to say, Multitudes of Professing Christians have been Totally Deceived by these books and truly believe they are going to be Raptured out by the Lord very soon. When in Reality this Teaching was INVENTED out of thin air by the SAME people who believe you are Born a Sinner, Pre-forgiven of Sin, Transferred Righteous and Eternally Secure!

CLEARLY the Bible Teaches that when the Lord Does Return it is going to be for a Church without Spot and Blameless, PURIFIED by Obedience to the Truth! (2Pet3:14, 1Pet1:22) His TRUE Saints will NOT be overtaken as a Thief, or Walking in Darkness, (1Thess5:4-5) or sinning everyday in thought, word and deed. (as the churches are being taught) They will be Watching and Waiting Diligently Serving the Lord and Contending earnestly for the Truth in these Dark times. Genuine Believers are NOT Double-Minded, Divided in heart or trying to Serve Two Masters. They have Crucified the flesh with its passion and desires and sin does NOT reign in their mortal bodies.

All this is FAR Removed from Church teaching that focuses on entertainments and vain amusements. The Rapture teaching tickles the ears of people who think God is their sugar daddy showering them with blessings and coming to rescue them from the Great Tribulation. But in reality they are riding the Scarlet Beast as the Great Harlot of Revelation 17, corrupted to the Core and Deceived by an Army of False teachers who have convinced them they can sin and Not Die. They find support for their fallacies in the Bible and insist their theology is sound. Surly 1Thess4:16-17 supports the Rapture of the church! BUT WHY, for centuries, dating back to the earliest Disciples, did NO ONE see this? Does it make sense that no one until Darby in 1827, understood this passage?

And what about the commercialization of this teaching. HOW does that fit into the Preaching of Repentance and Faith Proven by Deeds? IT DOESN’T! Not in anyway whatsoever. Whether living Saints will be translated into Glorified Saints at the Lord’s Return is NOT the central focus of New Testament teaching. Perhaps the early Christians were correct and Revelation 20 is literal, I don’t know. But ONE thing is for certain, the Lord is going to Return some day to Judge the World in Righteousness. He will separate the Sheep from the Goats and burn away the Chaff with unquenchable fire! For the Defiled Churches this will be a Very Dark Day indeed.

Theyzzzzzz will be weeping and gashing their teeth, Crying Lord, Lord and begging for a reprieve. But their own Strong Delusion will be their undoing. They traded the Truth of God for a LIE and Refused to Search out the Scriptures to Verify what their preachers were telling them was Sound. The Shepard’s themselves blindly followed the doctrines of men instead of God so Everyone was dubbed by the spirit of error. Anyone with a brain could have easily searched out the Rapture teaching and uncovered the fallacies, but the COST was too high for them to buck the mainstream. It was Fun watching the Movies, following Sunday School themes with LaHaye’s work books and handing out his material to the people. It kept the congregation happy and content and fostered a great deal of discussion that took the focus off their sinful conduct. They are all looking forward to the Rapture to solve all their problems and give them peace.

Telling them they are going to be Judged According to their DEEDS when the Lord returns (or they die) would ruin all the enjoyment. (Rev22:11-14) They would then have to be Personally Responsible to the Lord for their conduct and Obey the Word! Also it would be necessary for them to maintain Pure hearts and Clear consciences. And Crucify their flesh with its passions and desires. All the games would be over. As the Scriptures have directed all Saints throughout time, it is absolutely essential to Test the Spirits, Examine the Truth, Compare Scripture with Scripture, be Fully equipped with the amour of God, Dig Deep and Discern! Deception is everywhere. It’s FOOLISH to follow a Teacher / Preacher Without first checking them out with the Bible. BUT you MUST KNOW the BIBLE!!!

You Can’t Walk about in a Daze ignorant of these things and expect to be safe and secure. The Religious System that you are a part of is founded on shifting sands! You are Wise in Worldly Matters, TURN your Attention to Spiritual things before you find yourself being Cast into the furnace of affliction. The RAPTURE is a FRAUD, What more Proof do you Need? Darby Invented it!
The DAY of the Lord is NOT Divided into Dispensations or Separated by any time frames. As the Early Saints understood it was a SINGLE Day of the Lord’s Return and Judgment. Here are some Proof Texts:

Matthew 25:13 “Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour in which the Son of Man is coming.”

Acts 17:30-31 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, 31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.”

Romans 2:16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

1 Corinthians 1:8 who will also confirm you to the end, that you may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:14 as also you have understood us in part, that we are your boast as you also are ours, in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Philippians 1:10 that you may approve the things that are excellent, that you may be sincere and without offense till the day of Christ,

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.

2 Thessalonians 2:2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.

2 Timothy 4:8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.

1 Peter 2:12 having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation.

If ANY of the inspired Writers understood a Secret Rapture of the Saints, WHY didn’t they mention it in these passages? Collectively they referred to His Appearing a DAY of the Lord, NOT a Rapture of the Church, as your Pastors are calling it. People in the churches who are following this teaching are typically focused solely on the entire End times Package, NOT Obeying the Lord or seeing anyone Saved from the Corrupting influence of Sin. They have embraced a TOTAL Fallacy of Doctrine and Teaching and the Present Condition of Professing Christians testifies to how far they have fallen into the depths of Satan.
Courtesy standingthegap.org
 
C

CDavid

Guest
#9
I believe there is a rapture.
That's beside the point. Are you setting aside provisions for the elect, who will face the persecution of the antichrist.
 

HEIsRiSen

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2013
487
11
0
#10
The word rapture isn't actually in the bible......most people are referring to mark 13:27 where it says

"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

You can read mark from 13:24 to 13:27 to see that the gathering part of it happens after the great tribulation and the sun and moon are darkened.

Why it's taught the way it is in Churches is something I can't answer for you. I don't know how that whole thing got started to be honest.
I'd say most people are referring to this passage

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The archaic definition of rapture is to be carried off or caught up as the KJV puts it.
 
Jan 24, 2013
944
2
0
#11
I'd say most people are referring to this passage

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18

King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]16 [/SUP]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[SUP]17 [/SUP]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The archaic definition of rapture is to be carried off or caught up as the KJV puts it.

Revelation 12:5
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

How was Christ "caught up"?
 

HEIsRiSen

Senior Member
Feb 4, 2013
487
11
0
#12
Revelation 12:5
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

How was Christ "caught up"?
Christ ascended into heaven, which is to say he went up.
 
C

CDavid

Guest
#13
Because the elect will not accept the mark of the beast, they will be forced underground.The elect will be unable to buy or sell. The elect hill have need for food, water, heating oil, portable generators; all the things that people need during a period of war or natural disaster.

Paul clearly states in 2 Thess. 2; 1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, [SUP]2[/SUP] That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. [SUP]3[/SUP] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; [SUP]4[/SUP] Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
Jesus made it clear that He will return and gather the elect after the tribulation; Matt. 24:29-31; 29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: [SUP]30[/SUP] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [SUP]31[/SUP] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
I know it is more comforting to believe the fly away fairy tale. I myself believed it for many years. Even so, if there is an ounce of Christian love for Gods elect, shouldn't all the extra good Christians, who are going to be protected from the tribulation by the rapture, show a little love for the elect, by setting aside provisions.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,212
2,547
113
#14
Do you know what I find interesting? in 2012 china's largest river turns blood red to where even the beach is bleached in red, in that very same year in australia or however you spell the outback there were several twisters of fire. Both of these events were on the news but i do not watch the news so i just found out.
 
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Therapon

Guest
#15
Sooo is there no rapture? And if not why do today's preacher's use scripture to say that there is a rapture? Sorry if this sounds stupid I just want to understand
Oh, we will surely be taken to be with the Lord alright, at the last trumpet just like 1 Cor 15 :52 states: "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

Since we will be taken to be with the Lord at the last trumpet, then every other trumpet in the Bible must already be fulfilled, which means the church will be on Earth during six of the seven trumpets in Revelation. A frightening prospect for Dispensationalists, but no problem for Linear Historicists, sinse we recognize that Revelation's trumpets have been in the process of being fulfilled throughout the Christian era.
 
T

Therapon

Guest
#16
alternative interpretation to therepon
I have learned not to expect a whole lot of spiritual maturity or spiritual insight from those who stoop to ridicule.
 
T

Therapon

Guest
#17
The word rapture isn't actually in the bible......most people are referring to mark 13:27 where it says: "And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven."

You can read mark from 13:24 to 13:27 to see that the gathering part of it happens after the great tribulation and the sun and moon are darkened. Why it's taught the way it is in Churches is something I can't answer for you. I don't know how that whole thing got started to be honest.
It is taught the way it is because pastors of the 19th century were led astray by the doctrinal musings of a Jesuit priest named Manuel de Lacunza ya Diaz, who was evicted from Spain and move to Imola, Italy. Under the assumed name of Rabbi Ben Ezra, Lacunza wrote a book entitled "The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty." Lacunza's book was translated into English and eventually picked up by John N. Darby, founder of the Plymouth Brethren. From that dubious beginning, the whole seven-year tribulation, coming Antichrist, rebuilt Temple scenario was invented and spread throughout the Western Church.
 
N

nathan3

Guest
#18
There will be a great tribulation. Knowing this, shouldn't this be of greater concern than it seems it is among Christians.

Whether you believe the rapture fairy tale, or you believe what the Bible clearly says, shouldn't Christians begin storing up provisions for that period.

Knowing that the elect will need these provisions, we should prepare.

Even if I did believe the fly away fairy tale, I wouldn't be much of a love my neighbor Christian, if I let this time come without trying to make life a little better for the elect, who will be persecuted.
The Bible says its only going to be 5 months from what I read. And its going to be a time of peace. that is why its so deceiving the Bible warns. The dooms dayers have deceived the people. The Elect will be helped of God. They will be fine, they already know what's going down. I would worry about weather you have that seal of truth, to know whats going on, as its written; yourself. We should be learning the Bible everyday, being careful not to perpetuate the confusion.
 
T

Therapon

Guest
#19
That's beside the point. Are you setting aside provisions for the elect, who will face the persecution of the antichrist.
There is no coming Antichrist scripturally. Antichrist is the bogus invention of a Jesuit priest in 1591. During the Counter-Reformation, the Jesuit Fr. Ribera (the actual father of dispensational doctrine), was commissioned to develop a doctrine that would stop the reformers from identifying the Roman Catholic hierarchy as the "Whore of Babylon" of Revelation 17. Interestingly enough, Ribera's unscriptural musings are now accepted as sound doctrine by many evangelical Protestant churches.
 
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