Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

[cfultz3]

That statement seems to be used a lot to show the authority for what one believes,
to show that one's understanding is always God-given and God-authorized.

There are multiple problems with that. . .the rational one first.
If those who make such claims are correct, then God contradicts himself, because among those who make these claims are understandings which are a direct contradiction to others' understandings, but all authorized by the Holy Spirit.

Secondly, Jesus made that statement at the Last Supper to his apostles (Jn 16:13), not to the whole church.
He promised that the Holy Spirit would guide his apostles into all truth about him,
guaranteeing their inerrancy as writers of Scripture and the foundation of his church (Eph 2:20).

But that was not a promise of inerrancy to all Christians.

And thirdly, if even what Paul said to the more noble Bereans was subject to measure against the word of God written to see if it were true (Ac 17:17),
then how much more is the believer's understanding to be measured against the word of God before it is accepted as true?

The believer has no promise from Jesus that his understanding will always be true and, therefore, authoritative for himself.
His understanding must be in agreement with Scripture, and where it is not, it is not Biblical.

Therefore, whatever understanding one thinks he has been given by the Holy Spirit is subject to measure against the word of God written.

You are correct. Thanks for showing me that error.

 

[cfultz3]

No misunderstanding.

Only if your faith includes faith in his sacrifice as propitiation for your sin (Ro 3:25), which forgives your sin, and is salvation.

Again, you are correct.

 

[cfultz3]

If I were to say that God is Love. How would you correct that?

 

[cfultz3]

If I were to say the earth is made of matter, how would you correct that?

 

[cfultz3]

If I say that I have blue eyes, how would you correct me on that?

Can I say anything at all which cannot be corrected by you? Anything?

 

[Elin]

You are correct. Thanks for showing me that error.

So glad we are agreed.

 

[Elin]

Again, you are correct.

We sure are agreeing on a lot lately.

That's nice.

 

[Elin]

If I were to say that God is Love. How would you correct that?

If that's all I have to measure against the word of God, then you are in agreement with the word of God.

 

[Elin]

If I were to say the earth is made of matter, how would you correct that?

Is that treated in Scripture, that I may measure it?

 

[cfultz3]

My pleasure to point that out for everyone. Have a nice day.

 

[Elin]

If I say that I have blue eyes, how would you correct me on that?

Do you?

Is that treated in Scripture?

Can I say anything at all which cannot be corrected by you? Anything?

You can say the whole Bible and not be corrected by me.

 

[zone]

That statement seems to be used a lot to show the authority for what one believes,
to show that one's understanding is always God-given and God-authorized.

There are multiple problems with that. . .the rational one first.
If those who make such claims are correct, then God contradicts himself, because among those who make these claims are understandings which are a direct contradiction to others' understandings, but all authorized by the Holy Spirit.

Secondly, Jesus made that statement at the Last Supper to his apostles (Jn 16:13), not to the whole church.
He promised that the Holy Spirit would guide his apostles into all truth about him,
guaranteeing their inerrancy as writers of Scripture and the foundation of his church (Eph 2:20).

But that was not a promise of inerrancy to all Christians.

And thirdly, if even what Paul said to the more noble Bereans was subject to measure against the word of God written to see if it were true (Ac 17:17),
then how much more is the believer's understanding to be measured against the word of God before it is accepted as true?

The believer has no promise from Jesus that his understanding will always be true and, therefore, authoritative for himself.
His understanding must be in agreement with Scripture, and where it is not, it is not Biblical.

Therefore, whatever understanding one thinks he has been given by the Holy Spirit is subject to measure against the word of God written.

 

[mark54]

Is Jesus equal to God ? Do these verses contradict the plain Word ... or is it possible that you lack understanding of the manner and means in which God humbled Himself for our sake ? Did God make so great a sacrifice on our behalf .... or did He delegate the task to someone other than Himself ?
QUOTE]

Christ Himnself stated the Father is greater than all, and the Father is greater than he, if you believe that my accepting the plain words of Christ means I lack understanding, sobeit.

 

[mark54]

John clearly ]establishes that. . .the Word was God. . .the Word became flesh in Jesus of Nazareth.

John clearly establishes multiple persons in the one Godhead, and

the union of the Godhead and manhood in Jesus of Nazareth.

So once again all you can do is ignore the points put to you. I will repeat
Neither Christ, Paul, Peter, James or John commanded anyone to believe Christ was the one true God Himself, as you have previously emphasised many times.
Nearly all of the Trinitarian ministers will not plainly state from the pulpit what to you is salvific belief and the consequences of getting it wrong. Well over 90% of members of Trinitarian churches would happily accept anyone as a Christian who solely believed Jesus is the Son of God.
But I might as well be honest. People come on the internet who think themselves 'knowledgeable' of the faith. They know much and are have come to share their knowledge and for others to benefit from it. It is a Walter Mitty style world, that nearly all the ministers in Trinitarian churches want nothing to do with, in respect of the extra biblical demands made.
But you people who think you are so wise and knowledgeable in your own eyes refuse to accept the obvious, you are fanatical and are lost in a world of head theology. Thank goodness the vast majority who go to church are not stuck in this world.
I am afraid you people who make your extra biblical demands and refuse to accept the requirements for salvation Christ himsaelf laid down show your spiritual immaturity by what you insist on. But the internet gives you the opportunity to voice the opinions you believe you are wise to have.

 

[mark54]

I dunno'. . .it's the words above that seem plain to me, and which you are ignoring.

I dunno'. . .the words above are pretty clear, and don't require any additional reasoning.


Well, it's certainly a stumbling block for you. . .

No stumbling block for me. It is youb that refuses to accept the requirement of belief Christ himself laid down unto salvation. And you also refuse to believe the plain words of Christ as to who is the one true God. If you refuse to accept the plain words of Christ you can hardly expect to have proper undersrtanding of other scripture.

Interesting to note you accuse me of ignoring your scriputre, when you have ignored all of mine, but at the same time you believe you are teaching 'the meat' on this website.
Why not reread the Trinity thread, I replied to some of your scriptures on there. But as I know you will not, nor cannot respond to the scriptures I have placed before you, I don't feel obligated to address yours.
Unfortunately what means most to you, and some others is theological exercise because that is what you revel in doing. I am afraid you will never uinderstand much real truth that way

 

[mark54]

[TABLE="width: 600"]
[TR]
[TD]Matthew 1:23 - “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”

Isaiah 9:6 - For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 43:10,11 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no Savior.”
Revelation 1:17-18; Revelation 2:8 - (Jesus is the First and the Last)

Isaiah 44:6 - (God is the Redeemer)
2 Peter 1:1 (Jesus is the Redeemer) - “To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ”

Isaiah 44:24 - (God created the world by His self alone)
John 1:3; Colossians 1:16 - (Jesus made all things)

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God... 1:14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us,

John 5:17,18 - “My Father has been working until now, and I have been working.” Therefore the Jews sought to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

John 5:23 - that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

John 8:24 - “Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I AM He, you will die in your sins.”

John 8:58 - Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

John 10:30-33 - Jesus answered them, “I and My Father are one.” Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

John 14:6-7 - Jesus said to him, “I AM the way, the truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”

John 14:9-11 - Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?”

John 20:28 - And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Acts 4:12 - “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

Acts 20:28 - (God purchased us with His own blood)
Revelation 1:5,6; Revelation 5:8-9 - (Jesus' blood purchased us)

Philippians 2:5-7 - Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bond-servant, and coming in the likeness of men.

1 Timothy 3:16 - And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

Titus 2:13 - looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ

Hebrews 1:8,9 - But to the Son He (God) says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom. You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

2 John 1:7 - For many deceivers have gone out into the world who do not confess Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Revelation 1:8 - “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 22:13 - “I AM the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”... 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches.”
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Why are you quoting scripture to me?
You don't accept the plain words of Christ, Paul and John on this subject. If you don't accept what they plainly stated in scripture, why are you quoting scripture yourself?
Seems odd to me

 

[mark54]

I dunno'. . .it's the words above that seem plain to me, and which you are ignoring.

I dunno'. . .the words above are pretty clear, and don't require any additional reasoning.


Well, it's certainly a stumbling block for you. . .

BTW Elin
Forget what you dunno

I have given you very plain scripture as to what I believe on tjhis subject, why can you not do the same?
Ah I remember, you have many times stated on this website, there is no verse of scripture that states Christ is God Himself

So by your own admittance, I have the plain scripture on this subject, you have your extrapolations of scripture, I think that says much

 

[RickShafer]

Hugh?.....It's funny, because I always considered Mark54, Uncle Fester, and Elin grace people.
Meaning God gives the grace to have the faith. - This is the reformed view(Augustine, Martin Luther, John Calvin). -
Call me crazy.

 

[mark54]

Hugh?.....It's funny, because I always considered Mark54, Uncle Fester, and Elin grace people.
Meaning God gives the grace to have the faith. - This is the reformed view(Augustine, Martin Luther, John Calvin). -
Call me crazy.

You are not crazy at all, and make a point of the most important significance, however, as the other two you mention believe a person must accept Christ is the one true God unto salvation, the point you put so well is lost on them, but I do accept it. And I have never told anyone they are not a Christian/unsaved or will end up in hell, neither have I in my heart condemned anyone. I have many faults don't get me wrong, but I am no mans judge, and to condemn a person for standing on the plain words of Christ is sheer folly and dangerous to put it mildly

 

[zone]

Mark54 is an arian.
he says Jesus is a created entity.
Not God.