Sovereignty of God and Moral Responsibility of Man

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cfultz3

Guest
#821
#821
Either the Spirit is Truth and leads to Truth all the time or we have an imposer.
 
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mark54

Banned
#822
Jan 11, 2013
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#822
eternally-gratefull said:
again, what does it mean to be his son, what would that make him?

He said he had glory with the father before time began. what does that mean? who was Jesus before time began?

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Christ was the only truly begotten Son of God. Tertullian(though I have read hardly any of the church fathers) believed, as I think did Iraneus that there was a time when Christ did not exist as a person in his own right so to speak, he was begat/brought forth by the Father directly. Now if you want me to explain to you exactly how that happened EG, alas I cannot. For I cannot tell you how events took place ex nihilo, before the biblical begining/creation. If anyone on this website has first hand knowledge of such events I wopuld be happy for them to share them. I agree, Christ had glory with the Father before the world began. What does that mean?
Apart from what ity says I cannot further explain it. Again, I know nothing of pre the biblical begining.
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#823
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#823
cfultz3 said:
Elin:

Secondly, Jesus made that statement at the Last Supper to his apostles (Jn 16:13), not to the whole church.
He promised that the Holy Spirit would guide his apostles into all truth about him,
guaranteeing their inerrancy as writers of Scripture and the foundation of his church (Eph 2:20).

But that was not a promise of inerrancy to all Christians.


I would assume from this that since the Spirit was only promised to the Apostles and since we are not apostles now, I would reckon that by what she said, we do not have the Holy Spirit now.

Either we have the Spirit of Truth or we do not. What say you?
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i say just what i posted a minute ago.
go read it again.

and go back and look at how you did it.
maybe you'll be convicted over the why...maybe not.

i see little conviction in any of you that are doing these things.

you would assume?
you would reckon?
.....that she called Jesus a liar, and she claimed anything like : 'we do not have the Holy Spirit now'?

what does that tell you?


i know what it confirms for me.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#824
#824
mark54 said:
Christ was tyhe only truly begotten Son of God. Tertullian(thuogh I have read hardly any of the church fathers) believed, as I tyhink did Iraneus that there was a time when Christ did not exist as a person in his own rioght so to speak, he was begat/brought foprth by the Father directly. Now if you want me to explain to you exactly how that happened EG, alas I cannot. For I cqannot tell you how eventsd topok place ex nihilo, before the biblical begining/creation. I agree, Christ had glory with the Father before the world began. What does that mean?
Apart from what ity says I cannot further explain it. Again, I know nothing of pre the biblical begining.
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ok.. while I disagree with those fathers that is fine.

what makes God God?? I know. hard question but bear with me, I think you will see (hope)
 
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mark54

Banned
#825
Jan 11, 2013
2,256
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#825
eternally-gratefull said:
ok.. while I disagree with those fathers that is fine.

what makes God God?? I know. hard question but bear with me, I think you will see (hope)
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EG
You simply cannot theologise this according to the academic mind and try to therefore bring forth conclusive evidence to support your point of view.(if that is what you are doing)

We have the scriptures. Christ plainly stated onl;y the Father is the one true God. Now I am not saying you are trying to use theology/the academic mind to change that truth, but irt is the truth, and no discussion can change that. No theological conclusions/conclusions of the academic mind can reverse that. We are called to believe, I believe what Christ stated.
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#826
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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#826
cfultz3 said:
Either the Spirit is Truth and leads to Truth all the time or we have an imposer.
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of course the Spirit is Truth and only reveals Truth all the time.

problem is you and i are not inspired infallibly authourized to be inerrent authors of scripture.
though i know you don't believe this, really, about yourself.
most christians know it.

"But that was not a promise of inerrancy to all Christians."
Elin.

but apostle cee thinks he has all truth all the time.
and watch him not apologize to Elin, or admit his sinful behavior.
means nothing to me.
it's all yours, cee.
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#827
#827
zone said:
i say just what i posted a minute ago.
go read it again.

and go back and look at how you did it.
maybe you'll be convicted over the why...maybe not.

i see little conviction in any of you that are doing these things.

you would assume?
you would reckon?
.....that she called Jesus a liar, and she claimed anything like : 'we do not have the Holy Spirit now'?

what does that tell you?


i know what it confirms for me.
Click to expand...
Elin,

I apologize for having said that you were saying that we do not have the Spirit of Truth when you said that we do not have the Spirit of Truth, but that He was only given to the Apostles. I promise I will not take your word when you say things.

Chris
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#828
#828
mark54 said:
EG
You simply cannot theologise this according to the academic mind and try to therefore bring forth conclusive evidence to support your point of view.(if that is what you are doing)

We have the scriptures. Christ plainly stated onl;y the Father is the one true God. Now I am not saying you are trying to use theology/the academic mind to change that truth, but irt is the truth, and no discussion can change that. No theological conclusions/conclusions of the academic mind can reverse that. We are called to believe, I believe what Christ stated.
Click to expand...
Jesus also agreed with Thomas that he was God.

I am not trying to get theological anything.

God has characteristics no other being has, It is what makes him God. Even if, (as some say) Jesus came to existance at some time. He still has ALL the characteristics of God.

An angel does not have these characteristics. we will never have them, and this is what will ALWAYS separate us from God.

Lucifer was called the greatest of ALL creation. Does this mean he was greater than Christ at one time?

Jesus said he is the one true God yes.. The father is the ultimate authority. Jesus never denied this. But that does not mean Jesus is not God himself.
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#829
#829
zone said:
of course the Spirit is Truth and only reveals Truth all the time.

problem is you and i are not inspired infallibly authourized to be inerrent authors of scripture.
though i know you don't believe this, really, about yourself.
most christians know it.

"But that was not a promise of inerrancy to all Christians."
Elin.

but apostle cee thinks he has all truth all the time.
and watch him not apologize to Elin, or admit his sinful behavior.
means nothing to me.
it's all yours, cee.
Click to expand...
Either the Spirit is the Spirit in all His attributes, or He is not.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#830
#830
cfultz3 said:
Either the Spirit is the Spirit in all His attributes, or He is not.
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God never promised innerancy to anyone. This is just another lie of the roman catholic church
 
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mark54

Banned
#831
Jan 11, 2013
2,256
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#831
eternally-gratefull said:
Jesus also agreed with Thomas that he was God.

I am not trying to get theological anything.

God has characteristics no other being has, It is what makes him God. Even if, (as some say) Jesus came to existance at some time. He still has ALL the characteristics of God.



An angel does not have these characteristics. we will never have them, and this is what will ALWAYS separate us from God.

Lucifer was called the greatest of ALL creation. Does this mean he was greater than Christ at one time?

Jesus said he is the one true God yes.. The father is the ultimate authority. Jesus never denied this. But that does not mean Jesus is not God himself.
Click to expand...
If Jesus is God, and the Father is the one true God, as you seem to accept, then I assume you cannot be trinitarian but oneness pentecostal, I say that genuinely

Concerning Christ having the Father's characteristics
Absolutely, when Christ walked this earth, the Holy Spirit was on him IN BODILY FORM.

Christ prayed that we the believers may be one AS he and his Father are one
Can you be me or I you?
No! we remain two indivdual people, but we can be of one heart and one mind in the Spirit, that is the only way you and I can be one
And Christ said:
That they may be one AS we are one

Beyond that eg, all I can say is, as you are aware there is not one plain statement in the bible that states Christ is the one true God, let alone saying eternal ife hinges on believing it
The call is simply to believe Christ is the Son of God, and if I am honest(and I don't mean you for you accept the biblical requirement unto salvation) only a person led by the academic mind, and not the Spirit will refuse to accept the requiremnt of belief Christ himself laid down unto salvation
I would like to leave it there for now, I am not at home, but will be saturday if you wanted to discuss this anymore then. I have a few private messages to send, then I must sign off till late tomorrow or saturday
God Bless
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#832
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#832
cfultz3 said:
Elin,

I apologize for having said that you were saying that we do not have the Spirit of Truth when you said that we do not have the Spirit of Truth, but that He was only given to the Apostles. I promise I will not take your word when you say things.

Chris
Click to expand...
surprise (not).

and so we see the true heart of you.
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#833
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#833
cfultz3 said:
Either the Spirit is the Spirit in all His attributes, or He is not.
Click to expand...
obfuscate and sink deeper into your mess all you want to.
the internet is forever, and a few clicks reveals what you are doing.

shameful.
tsk tsk.
 
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mark54

Banned
#834
Jan 11, 2013
2,256
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#834
eternally-gratefull said:
Jesus also agreed with Thomas that he was God.
Click to expand...
BTW
Jesus did not rebuke Thomas for calling him 'My Lord and My God' but only three chapters earlier had stated only the Father was the one TRUE God. True being the important word

But about the Son He says
Your throne O GOD will last forever and ever
And righteousness will be a sceptre of your kingdom
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness
Therefore GOD, YOUR GOD has set you above your companions and annointed you with the oil of joy
Heb1:8&9
 
zone

zone

Senior Member
#835
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
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#835
Elin said:
That statement seems to be used a lot to show the authority for what one believes,
to show that one's understanding is always God-given and God-authorized.

There are multiple problems with that. . .the rational one first.
If those who make such claims are correct, then God contradicts himself, because among those who make these claims are understandings which are a direct contradiction to others' understandings, but all authorized by the Holy Spirit.

Secondly, Jesus made that statement at the Last Supper to his apostles (Jn 16:13), not to the whole church.
He promised that the Holy Spirit would guide his apostles into all truth about him,
guaranteeing their inerrancy as writers of Scripture and the foundation of his church (Eph 2:20).

But that was not a promise of inerrancy to all Christians.

And thirdly, if even what Paul said to the more noble Bereans was subject to measure against the word of God written to see if it were true (Ac 17:17),
then how much more is the believer's understanding to be measured against the word of God before it is accepted as true?

The believer has no promise from Jesus that his understanding will always be true and, therefore, authoritative for himself.
His understanding must be in agreement with Scripture, and where it is not, it is not Biblical.

Therefore, whatever understanding one thinks he has been given by the Holy Spirit is subject to measure against the word of God written.
Click to expand...


great post, Elin.

just in case you might have thought the pic was congratulatory towards you, for some unknown 'victory'...

it wasn't. that would be childish, and missing the point entirely.

it was a YES concerning Truth.
i know it when i see it.
love Kath
 
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Scribe

Guest
#836
#836
Good Word. Look forward to responsibility of man. That seems to be the least understood.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#837
#837
mark54 said:
If Jesus is God, and the Father is the one true God, as you seem to accept, then I assdume you cannot be trinitqarian but omneness pentecostal, I say that genuinely
Click to expand...

You forgot the HS, who in itself is a unique being..

Concerning Christ having the Father's characteristics
Absolutely, when Christ walked this earth, the Holy Spirit was on him IN BODILY FORM.
Click to expand...
I am talking about before he came to earth. Not while he was here.

Christ prtayed that we the believers may be one AS he and his Father are one
Can you be me or I you?
Click to expand...
Not the same, this means united.

I am an adopted son. not a literal son. And I will never be able to create something out of nothing. or do things like the lord did in the OT (who was pre-incarnate Christ)
 
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cfultz3

Guest
#838
#838
eternally-gratefull said:
God never promised innerancy to anyone. This is just another lie of the roman catholic church
Click to expand...
But Who leads us to understand when we see err? Who is the One who says that path is wrong? Who leads us to Christ? Does not the Spirit lead us to Truth and does it not say in 1Jn 5:6 that the Spirit is Truth?

If the Spirit dwells in us and we hearken to Him, would He lead us astray to believe err or Truth?
 
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Elin

Banned
#839
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
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#839
mark54 said:
Elin said:
John clearly establishes that. . .the Word was God. . .the Word became flesh in Jesus of Nazareth.

John clearly establishes multiple persons in the one Godhead, and

the union of the Godhead and manhood in Jesus of Nazareth.
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So once again all you can do is ignore the points put to you.
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That is the point, and the point I've made to you.
 
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mark54

Banned
#840
Jan 11, 2013
2,256
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#840
eternally-gratefull said:

You forgot the HS, who in itself is a unique being..


I am talking about before he came to earth. Not while he was here.



Not the same, this means united.

I am an adopted son. not a literal son. And I will never be able to create something out of nothing. or do things like the lord did in the OT (who was pre-incarnate Christ)
Click to expand...

Well I don't have time for detaileed responses now EG
But Christ said only the Father was the one vtrue God
He also said
The Father is greater than I
The Father is greater than all

Paul said
Yet for us there is but one God, the Father, and one Lord Jesus Christ

John said
No one has seen God AT ANYTIME
And Jesus said no one has seen the Father

Very plain scripture concerning this subject. Theologising to overturn it is not in my opinion advisable
 
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