Hell is it Forever or no?

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Eccl12and13

Guest
#21
#21
Dekote said:
No my friend, I do not choose where I want to go. To say I do would say that I choose to have this mentality. I have no choice, none.
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Did Adam have a choice to accept the words of his wife or the words of God?

Did those outside of the ark have the opportunity to enter before the door was shut?

Did the nation of Israel have a choice to accept the words of God or not?

Deut.30
[19] I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:


We ALL have a choice and a decision to make concerning the worship of God. We either decide to do as we are commanded or we choose to transgress and disobey.


You may not feel as though you have a choice...but God gives ALL of mankind the choice to serve Him or not!



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acesneverwin

acesneverwin

Senior Member
#22
Jun 8, 2011
186
12
18
#22
Ok... so what about these verses?

Matt 19:29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[SUP][a][/SUP] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

It says they will inherit eternal life. Not that they already have it... according you, they already have it but it's just a matter of where they will spend it.

John 3:16... For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

 It says perish... perish means destroy. Disappear. Die... pass away... When something perishes, it generally is destroyed and ceases to exist. Not remain and be tormented. And again... it says so that they will have eternal life... not that they already have it but will be spend it with him rather than roasting over a fire forever and ever.

John 5:25 Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

Why doesn't it say crossed from eternal torment to eternal happiness? We didn't have life... So how can we have eternal life... just in pain?

Mathew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Here it actually says destroy not only your body (which man can do) but destroy both your body AND your soul. Man can't kill the soul. God can. He can destroy both body and soul in hell so fear him.

There are plenty other verses like this. And I'm not throwing your verses out the window. But ya gotta look at both. There are FAAAR more verses implying (sorry, actually stating directly) destruction of the soul than verses that implies the soul will live forever in eternal punishment. So that's why I lean that way.

But not to say I don't weigh both options. As for the stuff about Revelation and the beast and all that.... so much of that is symbolism and such I take my understanding of that book with a grain of salt. Not that there isn't truth in it... but I'm leery of how I interpret that book as I've seen so many vastly different interpretations. There is so much symbolism so I like to be careful what I latch on too. The only thing I know for certain reading Revelation, is the world will fall apart, Jesus will return and Satan will be defeated completely.
 
T

Theophane

Guest
#23
#23
@acesneverwin

I like the way you are applying critical thinking here! You're asking questions that are making me think.
 
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Eccl12and13

Guest
#24
#24
acesneverwin said:
As for the stuff about Revelation and the beast and all that.... so much of that is symbolism and such I take my understanding of that book with a grain of salt. Not that there isn't truth in it... but I'm leery of how I interpret that book as I've seen so many vastly different interpretations. There is so much symbolism so I like to be careful what I latch on too. The only thing I know for certain reading Revelation, is the world will fall apart, Jesus will return and Satan will be defeated completely.
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Although there is a lot of symbolism in the book of Rev and throughout the bible for that matter, at what point do you find any symbolism in the time frames spoken of. And if there are, there is always an explanation given.

Should we not expect 42 months to equal 3.5 years? "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."

And should we not expect the same for the following time frames given....

"And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man."

"And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months."

"And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them."

"And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth."

"And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days."

"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads."


Are all of these numbers simply an approximation for God? Of course not!


And just as ALL of the numbers given are exact, so should His time frame given to us for the length of time the beast and the false prophet are to dwell in the lake of fire.


God tells us they will be tossed in the lake of fire when Jesus returns to battle with the nations,

"And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

And that they would still be there 1000 years during the time Satan was bound,

"And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."

And they would yet be there when was Satan loosed and ultimately sent to his final dwelling place,

"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."


All of God's words must go together. We cannot dismiss some in favor of others.

God's word tells me above that the beast and the false prophet was cast into the lake of fire and 1000 years later, they were still there when Satan was finally sent to join them.

Can we dismiss the above fact because other scriptures says something else? No! For God's word tells us we must use ALL scriptures and they are to be used for correction;

2 Tim.3
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


.

 
Angela53510

Angela53510

Senior Member
#25
Jan 24, 2011
11,782
2,952
113
#25
Theophane, the absolute opposite of gnosticism for me. I was just bringing it up, as something to think about. I know there are many scriptures in the New Testament about body and soul like Hebrews 4:12.

But I am saying that we do live in these bodies of clay, and that is not a bad thing. True Greek dualism requires that the body be a bad thing. Which I do NOT believe in!!

Just trying to contrast Hebrew thought with Greek thought. I think the Hellenism of the world assured that some Greek thought would creep into the doctrine of the Jews. The Saduccees obviously did not believe in dualism at all, and that is why they opposed the resurrection of the dead.

My real thought is that I know that I need to do my best to share the gospel with those who have never heard it, and to rejoice that my name is written in the Lamb's book of Life!!

What I do not believe is valuable, is threatening people with hell. I think it is real, but that people do not really respond much to "turn or burn" these days. On the other hand, so many people don't know what sin is, it makes it hard to share the gospel.

So finding a way to witness to Christ, without debating whether hell is real, eternal or temporary is the point. We need to focus on sharing the love of God, and pointing out that sin is real, and spending eternity without Christ is real, unless the lost person believes and repents.
 
D

Dekote

Guest
#26
#26
Eccl12and13 said:
Did Adam have a choice to accept the words of his wife or the words of God?

Did those outside of the ark have the opportunity to enter before the door was shut?

Did the nation of Israel have a choice to accept the words of God or not?

Deut.30
[19] I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:


We ALL have a choice and a decision to make concerning the worship of God. We either decide to do as we are commanded or we choose to transgress and disobey.


You may not feel as though you have a choice...but God gives ALL of mankind the choice to serve Him or not!



.
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Those are not the same. A&E had to do one simple thing and those morons screwed it up.
The ark, would God have even allowed anyone else on it? I think the point was to kill everyone but the man he wanted.
Everyone in Isrial back then were morons like A&E because they saw a profit speprate the red sea and still didn't believe.

All I ask is one thing, one very very simple thing from our oh so powerful God that a human can do by accident. Even if he used a human to do it I'll give him credit, an animal and I still would. But no, he doesn't care, I don't blame him, but, he made his choice, so soon I'll make mine.
 
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Eccl12and13

Guest
#27
#27
Dekote said:
All I ask is one thing, one very very simple thing from our oh so powerful God that a human can do by accident. Even if he used a human to do it I'll give him credit, an animal and I still would. But no, he doesn't care, I don't blame him, but, he made his choice, so soon I'll make mine.
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Oooooooooooooooooooook........now that I see where you are coming from.....take care. I pray you will find what you are looking for.


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C

CDavid

Guest
#28
#28
Why should we as Christians, be concerned as to whether or not hell is for ever, or anything else about the place?
 
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Dekote

Guest
#29
#29
CDavid said:
Why should we as Christians, be concerned as to whether or not hell is for ever, or anything else about the place?
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Because someone you love might go there because they're not good enough... food for thought
 
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dus10

Guest
#30
#30
Hell? No. Hell is destroyed in the lakeoffire...along with everything else.
 
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dus10

Guest
#31
#31
Jesus himself says the soul can die. Not everyine lives eternally. Jesus says your soul dies in hell. The end.
 
acesneverwin

acesneverwin

Senior Member
#32
Jun 8, 2011
186
12
18
#32
Eccl12and13 said:
Although there is a lot of symbolism in the book of Rev and throughout the bible for that matter, at what point do you find any symbolism in the time frames spoken of. And if there are, there is always an explanation given....
...
"And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever."


All of God's words must go together. We cannot dismiss some in favor of others.

God's word tells me above that the beast and the false prophet was cast into the lake of fire and 1000 years later, they were still there when Satan was finally sent to join them.

Can we dismiss the above fact because other scriptures says something else? No! For God's word tells us we must use ALL scriptures and they are to be used for correction;

2 Tim.3
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
Click to expand...
You are right that we can probably expect the numbers to say what they do... again, I'll have to look at Revelation more closely... I'm a bit leery on how to interpret it. Even so, you have a bunch of verses that say otherwise and then that one. First off... My personal interpretation of that verse since I don't think the bible can contradict itself, is that Hell was created for Satan and his demons (bible says that). They already are immortal. They had eternal life and left. It wasn't created for humans. So something that already has eternal life, like Satan or his angels... won't perish but live in torment. And I would find it fitting that they would wreathe in torment forever. I mean, no human on earth, walked in the presence of God and had life like Satan and his angels did... yet they still walked away.

Either way, I have a whole bunch of verses that say over and over again about being destroyed, perishing, death, etc and then one or two that say otherwise or could be interpreted and such. Like I said I'm not throwing out these verses but weighing both in my hands and so far, destruction of the soul in hell as opposed to eternal life in torment in hell, holds more weight so I lean that way.
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
#33
#33
Angela53510 said:
The concept of a soul is Greek dualism. The Hebrew concept of a soul - nephesh - was the whole person. And really, who has ever separated their soul from their body? The Greek concept of soul, also included the body as being evil and bad, something to escape, which is not what the Hebrews believe. They celebrated life, and that God created our bodies and said they were good.

I think for me, the only thing that matters is being separated from God. Whether soul, body or something else, hell is to never be in the presence of God. We only have a glimpse of God, though a glass darkly (1 Cor. 13:12) but in eternity we will be in his presence - that is the message of salvation. It is about our relationship with Christ, not where we will or will not go.
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it wasn't just the greeks who subscribed to dualism...to put it bluntly dualism has been considered as self evident by pretty much every culture since the dawn of time...

the opposing view on the other hand is much more recent...its popularity basically dates to the eighteenth century when it was derived as a necessary consequence of anti supernatural materialistic rationalism...
 
Angela53510

Angela53510

Senior Member
#34
Jan 24, 2011
11,782
2,952
113
#34
In the Hebrew, there is a very different concept of humans. If you read Hebrew, you would understand this. I am just going to post a link with which I agree. Feel free to skip through the Greek info, and go to the part about the Old Testament view.

The Greek Versus the Hebrew View of Man
 
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dus10

Guest
#35
#35
Satan was NOT caste in lake of fire for 1000yrs! It says he was thrown in tartarus, then at the end hes thrown in the lake. Hes not there yet! Sorry to burst ya bubble, but "forever" & "for ever" arent the same in greek. "for ever" literally means for a time..& "torment" in greek means destroyed.
 
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dus10

Guest
#36
#36
If u believe a human is tortured eternally for 60yrs of sin, ur sayin not only is god unfair....but evil.
 
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CDavid

Guest
#37
#37

CDavid
Senior Member
Join DateJanuary 14th, 2013Age57Posts400 Rep Power1
Re: Hell is it Forever or no?

Why should we as Christians, be concerned as to whether or not hell is for ever, or anything else about the place?

This is the only post I placed on the Hell thread.
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T

TheStraightener

Banned
#38
Mar 21, 2013
170
1
0
#38
My options are:

Go to heaven where I'll be sat with murders, rapists pedophiles etc... But they are there cos they asked for gods forgiveness.

Or go to hell where my family and friends are who were good people and never harmed anyone in their lives.... They just didn't believe in god.

No fair minded person can say that's acceptable
 
Radius

Radius

Senior Member
#39
Feb 11, 2013
1,138
180
63
#39
Dekote said:
Because someone you love might go there because they're not good enough... food for thought
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No, they would go there because they did not accept Jesus as their Savior while on Earth.
 
D

Dekote

Guest
#40
#40
Radius said:
No, they would go there because they did not accept Jesus as their Savior while on Earth.
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Or didn't pray to him enough. Everyone who says they except him won't enter the kingdom remember.
 
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