USURPING AUTHORITY
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One last kick at the can!!
"May the eyes of all those in the Church be opened to see the important truth and its significant implication in allowing women to minister equally as they are called by God. To do otherwise is to deny the full redemptive work of Christ."
"May the eyes of all those in the Church be opened to see the important truth and its significant implication in allowing women to minister equally as they are called by God. To do otherwise is to deny the full redemptive work of Christ."
H
HSfilledlady
Guest
Angela, Why don't you start by telling us what you have discovered and your scriptural support. I would be interested in reading about your perspective.
I did extensively address the word Authority or Authentein in my first post. Too bad no one read it!!
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
church (the literal term) comes from the greek word Ekklesia, which means a gathering, usually significant about a gathering of political or religious means.
I think according to this word. since we are all gathered together here in the name of religion. this would fit the literal defenition of a church.. But I could be wrong
I think according to this word. since we are all gathered together here in the name of religion. this would fit the literal defenition of a church.. But I could be wrong
A
Abiding
Guest
No honestly you charged in and to me made a shofar blast......here comes the studied woman!!!!!
Now you actually think you intimidated or offended. I think you made me laugh.
Id say maybe you think your the first person here that has studied. And put yourself on a high horse.
But thats ok, im sure theres a possibility theres a man somewhere strong enough to dialogue with you.
But if its me ill tell you up front, i dont care what your sexist problems are...i dont have any.
G
GreenNnice
Guest
If you believe that christianchat.com is a type of 'church,' or, place God's called you, too, then, it's not so far a 'stretch' to think that women on c.c. teaching me about God is not a right thing to do.
By having your cake and eating it too, I mean you are believing that women cannot teach over a man, yet, on c.c. YOU are, LOL, doing that very thing.
---
That said, I believe women CAN teach a man a thing or two about God on c.c.-- this form of 'church,'or, at least, bible study, if 'that' stretches your imagination too far to think of c.c. as 'church (you go to on Sunday).'--as well as on the pulpit, heading a church congregation that is headed by Christ, who is in control of whoever He's put in authority to speak.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
well this is a discussion forum.. No one should be intimitated. but to think you have truth and no one else does. that is being less than humble for a man or a woman.
HSfilled lady - I have addressed all the Biblical support in many posts in another thread, which people are trying to superseded with this one. I am beginning to think that not one person has read them.
I discussed the issue of authority, or authentein in post #7 in http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...1-tim-2-12-speaking-woman-not-teach-have.html
So for those who missed it.
"Well, this is the kind of doctrinal error that comes out of using English as the basis for your beliefs.
The word in 1 Tim. 2 translated as "authority" in some versions, is a called a hapax legomen.
That means it only occurs ONCE in the whole Bible. So your other comparisons are not valid.
The word is "authentein" in Greek - αύθενείν. Some translators put it as
"To act on one's authority, to exercise authority, to have mastery, to be dominating."
But all these definitions come from non-Biblical sources and there is nothing to compare in the Bible to see how Paul is using the word.
Contemporaneous sources (writings that were written as the same time as the Bible) also say this word could be "murderer, ruler or master." In fact, it is probably actually a vulgar form of another word, autodikein (to take justice into one's own hand.).
Really, you have to look at the context in which 1 Timothy was written. Paul was writing to Timothy who was in Ephesus. Now Paul had already had big problems with the silversmiths in Ephesus, in Acts 19. Because Artemis, a fertility goddess was who they worshiped, and the silversmiths were making big money off the tourist statues and paraphernalia they were hawking, and they did NOT want to see Jesus and the unseen God taking over.
The priestesses of Artemis were pretty wicked women, and there was a cult of them who "ruled over men", subjected them to humiliation and slavery and assigned them female tasks." Now we do not know if it was these women, but their worship practices were pretty undignified, including temple prostitution. Worship was noisy and frenzied.
It is likely some of these women either became Christians, or more likely tried to infiltrate the church, and carried their worship into the services. I don't think that kind of thing should be tolerated by women or men.
I think many scholars would probably lean to "domineering" as the way to translate this verse.
It would be strange to think that Paul, who appointed Phoebe as a deacon, and Junia as an apostle, and said,
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal. 3:28
would suddenly start making statements that should apply to the church for all time, which were totally contrary to his statements in other books.
So my thought, is read in context, this verse is instructing Timothy not to let the ex-priestesses dominate and take over the church.
If you want to check this out further, I suggest the book "I Suffer Not a Woman" by Richard Clark Kroeger and Catherine Clark Kroeger. It gets very deeply into the Ephesus culture AND the Greek.
However, I do like you basis premises that women should be allowed to preach. Just back it up a bit with the Greek and you will be really contributing to the future, (I hope!) of the church."
And post # 19 in the same thread.
"Cobus, Junia was a WOMAN. Here is a link to the latest research on both the gender and whether she was an apostle or not.
Junia, A Female Apostle
Translation bias is a big issue, and even John Piper and Wayne Grudem, who are complementarians can find no cases of the name Junia being a man in all concurrent and ancient Greek writings or in the Bible because it is a hapax logemen.
As for Phoebe (please spell it correctly) being a servant, I say Amen! to that. Because ALL the deacons were servants. The word in Greek is dikonos διάκονος, which means, according to Strong's #1249:
servant/attendant/teacher/pastor/deacon/deaconness/minister/servant.
It is the same word, used in 1 Tim 3:10, 13; Phil. 1:1; 1 Tim 3:8, 12.
All these verses the word is translated as "deacon" according to Strong's.
This is a blatant example of translational bias. If Paul had wanted to say "servant" he would have used the word "doulos" or slave/servant. This word is used in other places. But when referring to the office of DEACON, Paul always used diakonos. But since King James and many translators following believed women could not be in leadership, nor be deacons, they only used the word "servant" once - and that is in the case of Phoebe, a woman. Pure and simply a bad translation. If it is deacon in all the other places it should be deacon in the case of Phoebe.
And the plural form of diakonos in 1 Tim 3:8-11 could likely be deaconness, simply because the plural of the word in Greek, means both women and men.
Nor is anyone here addressing the OP's original topic, which was the use of the word "authority" in 1 Tim 2:11-12, which is actually authentein in Greek, and does NOT mean authority, but rather "domineering". Which no Christian should be.
Cobo you are either Southern Baptist or Catholic, and if SBC, then we must learn from the sad "twisted" example of Texas. Such horrid things going on in my former denomination, that many have left that denomination, or formed their own state conventions. The take over of the SBC was engineered and planned and documented. The result is that women who were experts, and more qualified than men have been fired, men who did not agree with the extreme right wing stance of the Paige Patterson and his henchmen have been forced to sign documents they did not agree with, if they were close to retirement, or leave and form new Seminaries.
How sad that mis-translations of the Bible have resulted in women being relegated to being barefoot and pregnant, instead of being able to be part of the movement to spread the gospel. Dating back to SBC missionary Lottie Moon in the 18th century, who fought to be allowed God's call to China, and led thousands to the Lord, she was not allowed to preach to men in that country.
The result was the men would stand outside and listen and many were converted. One man became an evangelist as a result of Lottie Moon's ministry, and led 10,000 people to the Lord.
Thinking strictly from a numbers point of view. If God wants the gospel to go forth into all the word, (Matt. 28:18-20), then why would he exclude over 50% of the population of the world from being able to preach and teach the word of God.
"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Go therefore andmake disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,[SUP]20 [/SUP]teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”" Matt. 28:18-20
"And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherdsand teachers, [SUP]12 [/SUP]to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ," Eph. 4:11-12
I am not seeing any qualifications for gender in either scripture.
Saying women cannot be in authority is an example of misogyny at its worst. No wonder the spread of the gospel has been slowed down in the last century, and North America is not a leader in missions anymore, but instead are paying the price for wrong doctrine, and wrong use of the Biblical text."
And Post #20
Just an addendum for those who don't read links. This is part of the text of my link, early in my last post.
"Junia was a female apostle. This is the preferred view. The evidence is authoritative, compelling, diverse, and objective. Junia has been demonstrated to be a woman based on the testimony of early manuscripts, recorded statements of various church leaders through the 12th century, and research performed by many other scholars attesting to the name Junia or Julia existing in ancient times.The evidence for a male reading was based on later manuscripts subject to the interpretations of scribes who thoughtIounian was a male and to the statement by one early church leader who was also mistaken as to the correct gender of Prisca. Computer-generated searches could find no example of a male Junias in ancient times nor is there any evidence proving that Junias was ever a contracted form of a longer name.
Junia and Andronicus were apostles. Numerous contemporary and past scholarship, lexical definitions, grammatical construction, and scriptural examples all provide the strongest support that episemoi en toisapostolois, naturally meant they were "outstanding among the apostles," just as Chrysostom so elegantly declared."
Bait and switch is NOT going to work with me, and I thank you for your interest! Or pretending to be stupid, and that you cannot compete with my training. Perhaps people should ask God and he will show you the material that is out there for the egalitarian view on women teaching in the church.
I have a list of scholarly books and can cite them, if anyone needs to check more sources.
I discussed the issue of authority, or authentein in post #7 in http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...1-tim-2-12-speaking-woman-not-teach-have.html
So for those who missed it.
"Well, this is the kind of doctrinal error that comes out of using English as the basis for your beliefs.
The word in 1 Tim. 2 translated as "authority" in some versions, is a called a hapax legomen.
That means it only occurs ONCE in the whole Bible. So your other comparisons are not valid.
The word is "authentein" in Greek - αύθενείν. Some translators put it as
"To act on one's authority, to exercise authority, to have mastery, to be dominating."
But all these definitions come from non-Biblical sources and there is nothing to compare in the Bible to see how Paul is using the word.
Contemporaneous sources (writings that were written as the same time as the Bible) also say this word could be "murderer, ruler or master." In fact, it is probably actually a vulgar form of another word, autodikein (to take justice into one's own hand.).
Really, you have to look at the context in which 1 Timothy was written. Paul was writing to Timothy who was in Ephesus. Now Paul had already had big problems with the silversmiths in Ephesus, in Acts 19. Because Artemis, a fertility goddess was who they worshiped, and the silversmiths were making big money off the tourist statues and paraphernalia they were hawking, and they did NOT want to see Jesus and the unseen God taking over.
The priestesses of Artemis were pretty wicked women, and there was a cult of them who "ruled over men", subjected them to humiliation and slavery and assigned them female tasks." Now we do not know if it was these women, but their worship practices were pretty undignified, including temple prostitution. Worship was noisy and frenzied.
It is likely some of these women either became Christians, or more likely tried to infiltrate the church, and carried their worship into the services. I don't think that kind of thing should be tolerated by women or men.
I think many scholars would probably lean to "domineering" as the way to translate this verse.
It would be strange to think that Paul, who appointed Phoebe as a deacon, and Junia as an apostle, and said,
"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal. 3:28
would suddenly start making statements that should apply to the church for all time, which were totally contrary to his statements in other books.
So my thought, is read in context, this verse is instructing Timothy not to let the ex-priestesses dominate and take over the church.
If you want to check this out further, I suggest the book "I Suffer Not a Woman" by Richard Clark Kroeger and Catherine Clark Kroeger. It gets very deeply into the Ephesus culture AND the Greek.
However, I do like you basis premises that women should be allowed to preach. Just back it up a bit with the Greek and you will be really contributing to the future, (I hope!) of the church."
And post # 19 in the same thread.
"Cobus, Junia was a WOMAN. Here is a link to the latest research on both the gender and whether she was an apostle or not.
Junia, A Female Apostle
Translation bias is a big issue, and even John Piper and Wayne Grudem, who are complementarians can find no cases of the name Junia being a man in all concurrent and ancient Greek writings or in the Bible because it is a hapax logemen.
As for Phoebe (please spell it correctly) being a servant, I say Amen! to that. Because ALL the deacons were servants. The word in Greek is dikonos διάκονος, which means, according to Strong's #1249:
servant/attendant/teacher/pastor/deacon/deaconness/minister/servant.
It is the same word, used in 1 Tim 3:10, 13; Phil. 1:1; 1 Tim 3:8, 12.
All these verses the word is translated as "deacon" according to Strong's.
This is a blatant example of translational bias. If Paul had wanted to say "servant" he would have used the word "doulos" or slave/servant. This word is used in other places. But when referring to the office of DEACON, Paul always used diakonos. But since King James and many translators following believed women could not be in leadership, nor be deacons, they only used the word "servant" once - and that is in the case of Phoebe, a woman. Pure and simply a bad translation. If it is deacon in all the other places it should be deacon in the case of Phoebe.
And the plural form of diakonos in 1 Tim 3:8-11 could likely be deaconness, simply because the plural of the word in Greek, means both women and men.
Nor is anyone here addressing the OP's original topic, which was the use of the word "authority" in 1 Tim 2:11-12, which is actually authentein in Greek, and does NOT mean authority, but rather "domineering". Which no Christian should be.
Cobo you are either Southern Baptist or Catholic, and if SBC, then we must learn from the sad "twisted" example of Texas. Such horrid things going on in my former denomination, that many have left that denomination, or formed their own state conventions. The take over of the SBC was engineered and planned and documented. The result is that women who were experts, and more qualified than men have been fired, men who did not agree with the extreme right wing stance of the Paige Patterson and his henchmen have been forced to sign documents they did not agree with, if they were close to retirement, or leave and form new Seminaries.
How sad that mis-translations of the Bible have resulted in women being relegated to being barefoot and pregnant, instead of being able to be part of the movement to spread the gospel. Dating back to SBC missionary Lottie Moon in the 18th century, who fought to be allowed God's call to China, and led thousands to the Lord, she was not allowed to preach to men in that country.
The result was the men would stand outside and listen and many were converted. One man became an evangelist as a result of Lottie Moon's ministry, and led 10,000 people to the Lord.
Thinking strictly from a numbers point of view. If God wants the gospel to go forth into all the word, (Matt. 28:18-20), then why would he exclude over 50% of the population of the world from being able to preach and teach the word of God.
"And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Go therefore andmake disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,[SUP]20 [/SUP]teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”" Matt. 28:18-20
"And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherdsand teachers, [SUP]12 [/SUP]to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ," Eph. 4:11-12
I am not seeing any qualifications for gender in either scripture.
Saying women cannot be in authority is an example of misogyny at its worst. No wonder the spread of the gospel has been slowed down in the last century, and North America is not a leader in missions anymore, but instead are paying the price for wrong doctrine, and wrong use of the Biblical text."
And Post #20
Just an addendum for those who don't read links. This is part of the text of my link, early in my last post.
"Junia was a female apostle. This is the preferred view. The evidence is authoritative, compelling, diverse, and objective. Junia has been demonstrated to be a woman based on the testimony of early manuscripts, recorded statements of various church leaders through the 12th century, and research performed by many other scholars attesting to the name Junia or Julia existing in ancient times.The evidence for a male reading was based on later manuscripts subject to the interpretations of scribes who thoughtIounian was a male and to the statement by one early church leader who was also mistaken as to the correct gender of Prisca. Computer-generated searches could find no example of a male Junias in ancient times nor is there any evidence proving that Junias was ever a contracted form of a longer name.
Junia and Andronicus were apostles. Numerous contemporary and past scholarship, lexical definitions, grammatical construction, and scriptural examples all provide the strongest support that episemoi en toisapostolois, naturally meant they were "outstanding among the apostles," just as Chrysostom so elegantly declared."
Bait and switch is NOT going to work with me, and I thank you for your interest! Or pretending to be stupid, and that you cannot compete with my training. Perhaps people should ask God and he will show you the material that is out there for the egalitarian view on women teaching in the church.
I have a list of scholarly books and can cite them, if anyone needs to check more sources.
A
Abiding
Guest
After boasting about a knowledgeof hermeneutics then using Gal 3
as far as church government is sure getting off on the wrong foot
By the way ive not read in another thread any of your posts.
I dont remember reading anything from you until now
as far as church government is sure getting off on the wrong foot
By the way ive not read in another thread any of your posts.
I dont remember reading anything from you until now
G
GreenNnice
Guest
angie: Really, you have to look at the context in which 1 Timothy was written. Paul was writing to Timothy who was in Ephesus. Now Paul had already had big problems with the silversmiths in Ephesus, in Acts 19. Because Artemis, a fertility goddess was who they worshiped, and the silversmiths were making big money off the tourist statues and paraphernalia they were hawking, and they did NOT want to see Jesus and the unseen God taking over.
The priestesses of Artemis were pretty wicked women, and there was a cult of them who "ruled over men", subjected them to humiliation and slavery and assigned them female tasks." Now we do not know if it was these women, but their worship practices were pretty undignified, including temple prostitution. Worship was noisy and frenzied.
This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ makes perfect sense, too, because Paul, literally, says he 'wills' the men of Ephesus to pray everywhere, to lift holy hands.
Now , why is Paul saying this? Because the men are NOT doing it ! Furthermore, Paul uses the word 'authentein' to describe the women's , GASP! , kind of authority OVER THE MEN ! And, it's not a good authority. The word 'authentein' has, literally murderous undertones to it !!!
My guess then? Exactly what anj alluded ! Artemis, the goddess of fertility was being worshipped at this time and she was TAKING the men's women from the CHURCH ! So, Paul said that the men needed to BUCK UP ! ! Get your hands in the air and start praying everywhere you go.
Why doesn't this make sense?
What eg said was good too? Absolutely, c.c. is a KIND of church, it's (obviously) not a literal church building, but, LOL, it's a lot bigger than that, infinitely bigger !!! OK, not 'infinitely,' but you get the picture, don't you, world
Of course, yes, I am judging you as the world here. No, there is no salvation issue in what I say, it's simply a teaching issue, what Anj is trying to teach one housebuddy of mine now 
The priestesses of Artemis were pretty wicked women, and there was a cult of them who "ruled over men", subjected them to humiliation and slavery and assigned them female tasks." Now we do not know if it was these women, but their worship practices were pretty undignified, including temple prostitution. Worship was noisy and frenzied.
This ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ makes perfect sense, too, because Paul, literally, says he 'wills' the men of Ephesus to pray everywhere, to lift holy hands.
Now , why is Paul saying this? Because the men are NOT doing it ! Furthermore, Paul uses the word 'authentein' to describe the women's , GASP! , kind of authority OVER THE MEN ! And, it's not a good authority. The word 'authentein' has, literally murderous undertones to it !!!
My guess then? Exactly what anj alluded ! Artemis, the goddess of fertility was being worshipped at this time and she was TAKING the men's women from the CHURCH ! So, Paul said that the men needed to BUCK UP ! ! Get your hands in the air and start praying everywhere you go.
Why doesn't this make sense?
What eg said was good too? Absolutely, c.c. is a KIND of church, it's (obviously) not a literal church building, but, LOL, it's a lot bigger than that, infinitely bigger !!! OK, not 'infinitely,' but you get the picture, don't you, world
Of course, yes, I am judging you as the world here. No, there is no salvation issue in what I say, it's simply a teaching issue, what Anj is trying to teach one housebuddy of mine now
A
Abiding
Guest
Green wake up!!!!!!! how many times have i told you woman can teach?
Wish youd stop with your sillyness. But whatever.
G
GreenNnice
Guest
Abidingsquirrelbuddy, I've tried, sorry, giving up , go eat a few nuts, housebuddy, I suggest the pomegranate glazed pistachio ones with cherries and black pepper and lemon rind salted in
________________
I think the word 'authority' is in question in 1 Tim. 2:12, it is talking about use of authority, and, women are NOT to be (priviledged) with authority (positions) over a man, not to teach they are superior to men either, which, I believe, stems from Artemis' and her brainwashing ways of women, which caused Paul to implore men to pray everywhere and lift hands up and praise God .
I am just not sure even how 'women preachers not to preach to men" fits in with this verse. ?????????????
________________
I think the word 'authority' is in question in 1 Tim. 2:12, it is talking about use of authority, and, women are NOT to be (priviledged) with authority (positions) over a man, not to teach they are superior to men either, which, I believe, stems from Artemis' and her brainwashing ways of women, which caused Paul to implore men to pray everywhere and lift hands up and praise God .
I am just not sure even how 'women preachers not to preach to men" fits in with this verse. ?????????????
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A
Abiding
Guest
Abidingsquirrelbuddy, I've tried, sorry, giving up , go eat a few nuts, housebuddy, I suggest the pomegranate glazed pistachio ones with cherries and black pepper and lemon rind salted in
________________
I think the word 'authority' is in question in 1 Tim. 2:12, it is talking about use of authority, and, women are NOT to be (priviledged) with authority (positions) over a man, not to teach they are superior to men either, which, I believe, stems from Artemis' and her brainwashing ways of women, which caused Paul to implore men to pray everywhere and lift hands up and praise God .
I am just not sure even how 'women preachers not to preach to men" fits in with this verse. ?????????????
Honestly i dont think youve ever tried. Doing flybys in cryptic riddles isnt trying.
G
GreenNnice
Guest
Woman can teach man in church, as a head pastor. Scripture is clear that nowhere in it does it say women pastors cannot preach to men.
One must twist/mangle the word 'authority' and misunderstand 'to teach,' in 1 Tim. 2:12 to get their chauvinist opinion ^ that ^ state of delusion, housebuddy, and, THAT is what I am trying to say, goodsquirrelbuddy.
It's OK if you don't agree, I am just pointing out the obvious to me. The Lord leads
G
GreenNnice
Guest
Cryptic?
Such a gruesome sounding word, can't we just say 'hard to understand,' housebuddy
T
tdrew777
Guest
If you have some scholarship to add to the thread I would like to see it. You have given a conclusion, but skipped the process of analysis of how we should all arrive at your conclusion. You mention the importance of studying the original language of scripture, but nothing in any of your posts on this thread enlightens us as to what is said in the original language of scriptures with respect to gender, that is not said in the KJV. You repeatedly mention your impeccable scholarship, which I would like to benefit from. We ought not accept your conclusion as scholarly because you are a great scholar, but rather because you have enlightened us with a scholarly analysis.
Side note: I have not developed deep convictions one way or another on this issue.
G
GreenNnice
Guest
Very good truth here above by anj, teedee. much stuff truth fully said as I believe, not a tweedle-dee or tweedle-dum thought in the bunch of graphs, to my way of green thinking
Who has authority over you in your church? Your pastor or He who is in you, leading you, or ?? I dunno, pick someone who you think has authority over you IF you don't believe in the sovereignty of God in some way directly affecting your life.
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E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
I have studied this and have prety much come to the same conclusions. Which I alluded to in my first post. in this op
T
tdrew777
Guest
Why are you asking me who has authority over me, Christ or a Pastor? I have not yet developed deep convictions on gender issues in the church. In our present form, we let everyone participate as lead by the Holy Spirit and authority/gender issues have not yet caused any controversy. Sorry.