rapture pre or post tribulation

[Bookends]

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The son of man comes in the clouds

God is also depicted as riding and coming on clouds in the OT, and it always associated with incoming judgment. Would you claim that the OT scripture references are physical manifestations of God too? If No, then you have to admit that "coming in the clouds" doesn't have to be equated to the 2nd advent every time you read it.

he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Again, the sound of a great trumpet simply means God is going to do something in terms of de-creation, He's going to destroy something. Gather them to the uttermost part of heaven is your words, not from Matthew 24:31, read it again; and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. I believe this simply means that God is going entrust the angles with the care of His saints, not just the ones who lived in Jerusalem, but through-out the whole region of the Roman empire. It has a similar meaning as "from every nation under heaven" in Acts 2:5, and Acts 4:12, and Col 1:23

We meet the lord in the air, one shall be taken, and the other left.

Yes, when the Lord comes again we will meet him in the air and continue with Him to earth, the new earth and new heavens. So really our physical bodies, dead bodies, or resurrected bodies never leave. The intent behind one taken and the other left is this, one is taken in judgment (death), then other isn't (life is spared), because Christ took our judgment upon Himself to those who are authentically saved. What you are doing here is mixing 1 Thessalonians 4 (the 2nd coming) with the Olivet Discourse (judgment upon Jerusalem, which I believe, also has a typological fulfillment of Christ's 2nd coming).

It doesn’t say anything about Gods people being the one left behind

Nor does it say it God's people who are taken. But again, interpret this with the general revelation of the bible, and the one left behind after God displays His judgment and wrath is always the one left standing, His remnant. The rest end up as the evil servant, which is later described by Jesus in Matt. 24 [SUP]48 [/SUP]But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ [SUP]49 [/SUP]and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, [SUP]50 [/SUP]the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, [SUP]51 [/SUP]and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[peterT]

God is also depicted as riding and coming on clouds in the OT, and it always associated with incoming judgment. Would you claim that the OT scripture references are physical manifestations of God too? If No, then you have to admit that "coming in the clouds" doesn't have to be equated to the 2nd advent every time you read it.

Again, the sound of a great trumpet simply means God is going to do something in terms of de-creation, He's going to destroy something. Gather them to the uttermost part of heaven is your words, not from Matthew 24:31, read it again; and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. I believe this simply means that God is going entrust the angles with the care of His saints, not just the ones who lived in Jerusalem, but through-out the whole region of the Roman empire. It has a similar meaning as "from every nation under heaven" in Acts 2:5, and Acts 4:12, and Col 1:23



Yes, when the Lord comes again we will meet him in the air and continue with Him to earth, the new earth and new heavens. So really our physical bodies, dead bodies, or resurrected bodies never leave. The intent behind one taken and the other left is this, one is taken in judgment (death), then other isn't (life is spared), because Christ took our judgment upon Himself to those who are authentically saved. What you are doing here is mixing 1 Thessalonians 4 (the 2nd coming) with the Olivet Discourse (judgment upon Jerusalem, which I believe, also has a typological fulfillment of Christ's 2nd coming).

Nor does it say it God's people who are taken. But again, interpret this with the general revelation of the bible, and the one left behind after God displays His judgment and wrath is always the one left standing, His remnant. The rest end up as the evil servant, which is later described by Jesus in Matt. 24 [SUP]48 [/SUP]But if that evil servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ [SUP]49 [/SUP]and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, [SUP]50 [/SUP]the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, [SUP]51 [/SUP]and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matt 24 is talking about the end of the world and Jesus’s coming

And we meet him in the air in the clouds when he comes

Thus Matt24 Mark13 the angels gather the elect from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven, thus one will be taken and the other left because we meet him in the air .


And there we are stand on the sea of glass AFTER getting the victory over the beast AFTER getting the victory over his mark

Rv15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

As you can see we are in the heavens or some place AFTER getting the victory over the beast and his mark and before the wrath is poured out on the people that have the mark of the beast


Rv16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,


Thus, one shall be taken (us) and one shall be left for the (wrath of God)

 

[Bookends]

Matt 24 is talking about the end of the world and Jesus’s coming

And we meet him in the air in the clouds when he comes

Thus Matt24 Mark13 the angels gather the elect from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven, thus one will be taken and the other left because we meet him in the air .


And there we are stand on the sea of glass AFTER getting the victory over the beast AFTER getting the victory over his mark

Rv15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
6 And the seven angels came out of the temple, having the seven plagues, clothed in pure and white linen, and having their breasts girded with golden girdles.
8 And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled.

As you can see we are in the heavens or some place AFTER getting the victory over the beast and his mark and before the wrath is poured out on the people that have the mark of the beast


Rv16:2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,


Thus, one shall be taken (us) and one shall be left for the (wrath of God)

Ok, we are wasting each others time here. Peace out bro.

 

[Bookreader]

The rapture. First discussed (invented?) in the 17th century. Never discussed previously. So, for 1,600 years this was a non-topic.
Now people seem so wrapped up in the idea they've even made cheesy films on the topic

Has anyone thought that when Christ returns to Jerusalem (as the angels said just after he ascended) that many will travel by plane (caught up in the air) to Jerusalem to be with Christ?

I think that many people look at Revelation and want to think they will be saved from the bad stuff that it says will happen in the end times. Wishful thinking is often the mother of questionable doctrine.

 

[starfield]

The rapture allows saints to put on resurrected glorified bodies (1 Cor 15:52-53), so I'm not sure why some deny it. Also, two events occur in heaven prior to the second coming of Christ, the judgment seat of Christ and marriage supper of the Lamb, so who will partake in them if the church is not raptured before the tribulation?

 

[CDavid]

[h=3]Matthew 24:24[/h] "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Could a pre-trib rapture be one of the great signs and wonders to deceive.

 

[peterT]

Ok, we are wasting each others time here. Peace out bro.

Why are we wasting each other’s time here?

As a Christian you have to try to think outside the box. There are currently 285 users browsing this forum.

And chatting is a way of preaching the gospel, one of us gets to preach the gospel by bouncing off each other and debating scripture.

It might be different if we were mudslinging but we are NOT. that could be wasting each other’s time.

These came out of great tribulation and are before the throne of God.

Standing on the sea of glass After getting the victory over the beast .

Gathering the elect, from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
Thus, one shall be taken and the other left.

The one taken is the elect, Not the one taken is the wicked.

Revelation 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Rv7:13And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

Mark13;27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

There is a rapture there is just no word rapture in the bible

 

[peterT]

The rapture allows saints to put on resurrected glorified bodies (1 Cor 15:52-53), so I'm not sure why some deny it. Also, two events occur in heaven prior to the second coming of Christ, the judgment seat of Christ and marriage supper of the Lamb, so who will partake in them if the church is not raptured before the tribulation?

The marriage supper of the Lamb we get to go too, whether you believe in pre-trib or post trib, its after jesus comes.

Well you will get to go, if you don’t take the mark of the beast

 

[JGPS]

Not seeing the word "rapture" in my Bible. Perhaps you could point out the passage. I will argue back using the Greek, so be prepared!!!

No rapture! Christ returns once. (OK I gave away my position!)

It's a Latin phrase, not Greek. Arguing back using Greek is fruitless. Arguing with Latin would probably not be very useful either, but if you really wanted too I could try.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

That is where rapture is in in the Vulgate. It's the only place it is.

Mathew 24:40 This is how it will be at the coming of the son of man; Two men will be working in the field; One will be taken the other left. Two woman will be grinding with a hand mill; One will be taken and the other left

This does not have rapture in it, it is only inferred that this is related to the rapture.

 

[teuful_hunden]

post tribulation rapture all the way!!!

 

[1Covenant]

Neither....Amillennial view which I suppose technically still has the second coming at the very end.

 

[peterT]

It's a Latin phrase, not Greek. Arguing back using Greek is fruitless. Arguing with Latin would probably not be very useful either, but if you really wanted too I could try.



That is where rapture is in in the Vulgate. It's the only place it is.



This does not have rapture in it, it is only inferred that this is related to the rapture.

Yes it is inferred that this is related to the rapture and by more than one scripture
.

Matt24-- is talking about the end of the world and Jesus’s coming.

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Mark13;27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Gathering of the dead and the living from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

This is what Christians call the rapture

 

[JGPS]

Yes it is inferred that this is related to the rapture and by more than one scripture
.

Matt24-- is talking about the end of the world and Jesus’s coming.

Matthew 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Mark13;27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Gathering of the dead and the living from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

This is what Christians call the rapture

That it is. But Angela wanted to know where the exact word came up in scripture. It only actually comes up in 1 Timothy, so the Matt reference is inaccurate.

 

[Earlmayknowornot]

I am currently doing a study on this and I even more convinced of a pre trib rapture. First of all Jesus said I come as thief in the night. With that being said, if it were mid or post one could count down day. Once the peace agreement is signed. Then you could simply say okay, I've got 3 1/2 years or 7 years. No man knows the hour or the day. I've got a lot more to come. I know that Paul says at the last trump that the dead in christ will rise and we that remain will be caught up. This last trump is not the seventh trump of revelation cause the seventh also contains the 7 bowls and the 7 seven vials. This trump is signalling the end of the church age and the times of the gentiles. I will be starting a new thread shortly where we can discuss more. It will be in parts so that we can focus on the topic rather than many things at once so there is no confusion to the readers.

 

[Bookends]

Matthew 24:24

"For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
Could a pre-trib rapture be one of the great signs and wonders to deceive.

False Christs and prophets are nothing new to the NT writings.

 

[Bookends]

As a Christian you have to try to think outside the box.

That's not my method of hermeneutics and sense "thinking outside the box" it is yours, there can be no rational discussion that involves interpreting scripture with scripture and obvious clear understanding of context and cultural impact on what as clearly been written.

Thinking outside the box may be go to do in a worldly circumstance, in business, etc. but not for receiving revelation from the Word.

Besides, I don't think you'd ever change you mind or seriously think over my view. Why? because you don't directly answer my questions.

 

[peterT]

That it is. But Angela wanted to know where the exact word came up in scripture. It only actually comes up in 1 Timothy, so the Matt reference is inaccurate.

What was the word?
And were in 1 Timothy is it

I lost you here somehow

 

[peterT]

That's not my method of hermeneutics and sense "thinking outside the box" it is yours, there can be no rational discussion that involves interpreting scripture with scripture and obvious clear understanding of context and cultural impact on what as clearly been written.

Thinking outside the box may be go to do in a worldly circumstance, in business, etc. but not for receiving revelation from the Word.

Besides, I don't think you'd ever change you mind or seriously think over my view. Why? because you don't directly answer my questions.

I was relating “thinking outside the box” as in preaching the gospel on this website not interpreting scripture

But if you want to do mudslinging I am that interested sorry

 

[JGPS]

What was the word?
And were in 1 Timothy is it

I lost you here somehow

Oh, sorry.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Caught up is Rapiemur in the Vulgate. That's where the term Rapture comes from. As far as I know it's the only place that that term is used.

And its 1 Thessalonians, not Timothy, I misspoke there.

The term doesn't show up in Matthew.

 

[peterT]

Oh, sorry.



Caught up is Rapiemur in the Vulgate. That's where the term Rapture comes from. As far as I know it's the only place that that term is used.

And its 1 Thessalonians, not Timothy, I misspoke there.

The term doesn't show up in Matthew.

I see it in more than one place "Come up hither". And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud And the seventh angel sounded (last trumpet )

Rv11;11And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

And as for Matt 24 not in them words “Caught up” but still relevant to the words

Mark13;27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Matt24:30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Unless you are thinking Matt24 is not relevant to Jesus coming to get us.

Let me know