Deciphering Zechariah 14:5

Cobus · Apr 7, 2013

Zone, you are so wrong. Please just consider what we have spoken of SO MNY YEARS and so many times bofore. If the Work Jesus hs to do to save a person was FINISHED on the cross, there would not have been ONE DROP of ;iving waters for the earth. AND not ONE person would have been saved.

If in all these years you are still stuck at the cross, I really cannot help. Consider this idea please Zone....

What is the living waters Jesus talks about? Is it the Spirit of God? NO! Is it something that the Spiit has? YES! He is even called the Spirit of GOD and the Spirit of TEUTH....

How many times would I have to say this..... If God FILLS you with HIMSELF, you have so much TRUTH, WORD, GOD, SPIRIT, JEUS, HOLINESS, SEED, in you, that it even FLOWS from you. OVERFULL, PAST the mesure of HUMAN. but to th FULNESS that is in Christ....

And THAT DAY for me, or you Zone, or BOTH ZONE AND ME might be TODAY! It might be for Zone today, and for me next year. On THAT day I recieve the LORD AS MY BAPTISM I am added t the Body of Christ Jesus. The holy Church and the EVERLASTING LIFE of God!

People that GOD DOES NOT EVEN know will NEVER have a day when LIVING WATERS will flow from their Bellies. It has to be IN a person to flow FROM a person. And we all know the World (sinners) CANNOT recieve the Spirit of Truth, because they chose their fleshly lust above the Truth of GOD!

1still_waters · Apr 7, 2013

What if I could show Zech 14 was fulfilled in Ezra/Nehemiah?
Would you hate me?

HeRoseFromTheDead · Apr 7, 2013

crossnote said:

I think we have to be careful when reading scripture to understand that it's language is not always as precise as we'd like or expect it to be. If you have not already done so, a study of the word all in the bible reveals that it doesn't always refer to every. For instance, I know there is a verse somewhere that states all Israel gathered together in Jerusalem (or somewhere). Is it really realistic to think that every person in Israel was there? The sense is that a very large number encompassing all tribes representing the whole nation was there, not every person. Our contemporary language is filled with such things.

Remember, Rome was an empire composed of many nations. There were many armies from surrounding nations assisting Rome in it's conquest of Judah and Jerusalem.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Apr 7, 2013

1still_waters said:

I'd love you. You going to have a hard time proving that for verses 4-5, though, without resorting to a lot of speculation.

peacefulbeliever · Apr 7, 2013

crossnote said:

crossnote - do not let them blame your looking at the context of these scripture as being "dispensationalism". It's clear in the context that this is concerning Jesus second coming to the earth where his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives. In v5 it also speaks of all the saints coming with him (which did not happen when he walked the earth)(1 Thess. 3:13 at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints).

HeRoseFromTheDead · Apr 7, 2013

Cobus said:

Zone, you are so wrong. Please just consider what we have spoken of SO MNY YEARS and so many times bofore. If the Work Jesus hs to do to save a person was FINISHED on the cross, there would not have been ONE DROP of ;iving waters for the earth. AND not ONE person would have been saved.

If in all these years you are still stuck at the cross, I really cannot help. Consider this idea please Zone....

What is the living waters Jesus talks about? Is it the Spirit of God? NO! Is it something that the Spiit has? YES! He is even called the Spirit of GOD and the Spirit of TEUTH....

How many times would I have to say this..... If God FILLS you with HIMSELF, you have so much TRUTH, WORD, GOD, SPIRIT, JEUS, HOLINESS, SEED, in you, that it even FLOWS from you. OVERFULL, PAST the mesure of HUMAN. but to th FULNESS that is in Christ....

And THAT DAY for me, or you Zone, or BOTH ZONE AND ME might be TODAY! It might be for Zone today, and for me next year. On THAT day I recieve the LORD AS MY BAPTISM I am added t the Body of Christ Jesus. The holy Church and the EVERLASTING LIFE of God!

People that GOD DOES NOT EVEN know will NEVER have a day when LIVING WATERS will flow from their Bellies. It has to be IN a person to flow FROM a person. And we all know the World (sinners) CANNOT recieve the Spirit of Truth, because they chose their fleshly lust above the Truth of GOD!

The cross is everything; it is the source of the river, or spirit. If one does not have the cross within by continually putting to death the carnal man so that the spirit my abide within, no river of life can flow from within. Redemption was finished at the cross, not salvation which is a process that lasts a lifetime. Salvation requires sanctification which cannot occur without the cross.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Apr 7, 2013

peacefulbeliever said:

The last part of verse 5 could have originally been a part of verse 6, or even a standalone verse. Punctuation, verse designations, probably paragraphs, and possibly even spaces weren't in the original manuscripts. The existent chapter/verse arrangement is a much later development that reflects certain theologians’ consensus on understanding, but not necessarily always what the author actually saw, or intended.

The rest of verse 5 has definitely been fulfilled. Only an uninformed, obtuse, or unbelieving mind could deny that.

1still_waters · Apr 7, 2013

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

Not really.
It's mostly about trying to figure out what the imagery is trying to get across.
I think we get caught up in the figures of speech, instead of what the figures of speech are trying to say.

Btw, anything below is merely me kicking around possibilities.
The below is part of a bigger thing from Zech 14 that I'm working on.

Let me set a little ground work first.

Zechariah written around 520-518 BC
Nehemiah written around 445-430 BC
Ezra Chapters 7-10 around 458 BC

The scripture...

Verses 4-5
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You

Now I know a lot of folks try to figure out if there was a literal standing on of the mountains. People are looking for a literal mountain split in two. Various people are looking for mudslides and valleys and the like. But I want to suggest, stepping back and considering something.

What if this isn't about literal standing on mountains, and mountains splitting, and mud slides and valleys and the like? What if it's merely very strong poetic imagery trying to get a point across? If it IS strong poetic imagery trying to get a point across, what point is it trying to get across?

I think the point it's trying to get across is very simple.

God is acting with his power to bring all of his people back from the Babylonian captivity. Doing such would require a major act of God, and a major valley made for them to come back.

I think Nehemiah shows just this.

This whole thing is instigated and overseen by God...

Nehemiah 7
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Now the city was large and spacious, but the people in it were few, and the houses were not rebuilt. [SUP]5 [/SUP]Then my God put it into my heart to gather the nobles, the rulers, and the people, that they might be registered by genealogy. And I found a register of the genealogy of those who had come up in the first return, and found written in it:

God opens a WIDE way for them to return...

Neh 7
[SUP]6 [/SUP]These[SUP][a][/SUP] are the people of the province who came back from the captivity, of those who had been carried away, whom Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon had carried away, and who returned to Jerusalem and Judah, everyone to his city.

The exiles are FLEEING from Babylon and back home...

You can read all of it in Nehemiah 7

Nehemiah 8
8 Now all the people gathered together as one man in the open square that was in front of the Water Gate; and they told Ezra the scribe to bring the Book of the Law of Moses, which the Lord had commanded Israel.

God is overseeing it...<---imagery that's trying to be given. God is opening a way for return.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.

They will escape Babylon and flee back to Jerusalem.<---Imagery that's trying to get put across.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.
Thus the Lord my God will come,
And all the saints with You

1still_waters · Apr 7, 2013

And I think my interpretation fits, because Zech ends with Jerusalem restored.
Nehemiah ends with Jerusalem restored, the law being read and the like.
The end of Ezra fits into this too.
The chronological timeline also fits.

I just think we get soooooo stuck on the imagery, that we don't consider the BROAD main idea it's trying to get across.
And we miss the broad idea, because we're either way too literal, or we're trying to fit it into the future.

peacefulbeliever · Apr 7, 2013

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

I know that punctuation has been added . . . .
What you are trying to say is that the end of verse 5 doesn't fit?

It fits if the section is talking about his second coming - it just doesn't fit with your belief - so you want to blame punctuation, chapters, verse arrangement . . . . .

A day of the Lord is coming. . . .

Then the Lord will go out and fight against the nations, as he fights on a day of battle (hmmm. .might be speaking of Armaggadon). . .Did he fight any battles in the gospels while on the Mount of Olives?

On that day - what day? the day of the Lord or the Lord's day. . .his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives. . . .

Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

The Lord did not come with all the holy ones the time he stood on the Mount of Olives in the Gospels. . .we don't hear of him coming with his saints until 1 Thessalonians 3:13. . . .

"In that day" here and other places refers to "the Lord's day" or "the day of the Lord" - meaning his second coming.

When the day of the Lord/the Lord's day is used - it usually refers to the end: Just for example:

Isaiah 13:6,9 Wail, for the day of the LORD is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty.. . .See, the day of the LORD is coming--a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger to make the land desolate and destroy the sinners within it.

Ezekiel 13:5 You have not gone up to the breaches in the wall to repair it for the people of Israel so that it will stand firm in the battle on the day of the Lord.

Joel 1:15 Alas for that day! For the day of the Lord is near; it will come like destruction from the Almighty.
Joel 2:1,11 Blow the trumpet in Zion; sound the alarm on my holy hill. Let all who live in the land tremble, for the day of the Lord is coming. It is close at hand----The Lord thunders at the head of his army; his forces are beyond number, and mighty is the army that obeys his command. The day of the Lord is great; it is dreadful. Who can endure it?

Amos 5:18 Woe to you who long for the day of the Lord! Why do you long for the day of the Lord? That day will be darkness, not light. . .20) Will not the day of the Lord be darkness, not light-- pitch dark, without a ray of brightness?

Zephaniah 1:7,14 Be silent before the Sovereign Lord, for the day of the Lord is near. . . .The great day of the Lord is near--near and coming quickly. The cry on the day of the Lord is bitter; the Mighty Warrior shouts his battle cry.

Malachi 4:5 See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the Lord comes. (v1) Surely the day is coming. . . .

IN THAT DAY - the Root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples; the nations will rally to him, and his resting place will be glorious. IN THAT DAY the Lord will reach out his hand a second time to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people. . . .

"Only an uninformed, obtuse, or unbelieving mind could deny that." I see you also resort to rude denigrating language when someone disagrees with you. Hey, whatever - If believing that this is referring to Christ's second coming - then I will remain "uninformed", "obtuse", and retain my "unbelieving mind". . . .Thanks

sinless · Apr 7, 2013

Nothing to decipher, Jesus returns to deliver Jerusalem and the end of the age

HeRoseFromTheDead · Apr 7, 2013

1still_waters said:

I only want to address one point first. Verse 5 that you listed is a bogus translation. Zechariah 14:5 actually says this:

HeRoseFromTheDead · Apr 7, 2013

peacefulbeliever said:

NO, the end of verse does not fit with the context of the rest of the verse, but it does fit well with verse 6.

Yes I know the day of the lord is coming, but Zechariah 14:5 is not referring to it.

I don't think I was being rude, and I certainly wasn't trying to be, but facts are facts. There is so much evidence in the world right now that the version of Zechariah 14:5 that you are used to (ie, fleeing through the Mt of Olives to Azal) is bogus. The real version says this:

This changes everything. And this has already happened. So yes anyone who thinks verse 5 hasn't happened is, at a minimum, uninformed.

weakness · Apr 7, 2013

zone said:

just look at bits from commentaries on the preceding chapter

, 13

it's always about the promise for Israel.
the gentiles were grafted in AFTER.

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.

.......................................

Zechariah 13:1
In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

In that day there shall be a fountain opened - Zechariah often repeats, "in that day" Zechariah 12:3-4, Zechariah 12:6, Zechariah 12:8-9, Zechariah 12:11; Zechariah 13:1-2, Zechariah 13:4; Zechariah 14:6, Zechariah 14:8, Zechariah 14:13, Zechariah 14:20, resuming his subject again and again, as a time not proximate, but fixed and known of God, of which he declared somewhat. It is "that day" which "Abraham desired to see, and saw it" John 8:56, whether by direct revelation, or in the typical sacrifice of Isaac, "and was glad:" it was "that day" which "many prophets and kings and righteous men desired to see" Matthew 13:17; Luke 10:24, and in patience waited for it,: "the" one "day of salvation" of the Gospel.

He had spoken of repentance, in contemplation of Christ crucified; he now speaks of forgiveness and cleansing, of sanctification and consequent obedience. The "fountain shall be" not simply "opened," but shall remain open. Isaiah had already prophesied of the refreshment of the Gospel. "When the poor and needy seek water and there is none, and their tongue faileth for thirst, I, the Lord, will hear them, I, the God of Israel, will not forsake them. I will open rivers in high places and fountains in the midst of the valleys" Isaiah 41:17-18; here it is added, "for sin. and for uncleanness."
Barnes

............................

Some refer this to the destruction of the city by the Romans. It was on the mount of Olives that Titus posted his army to batter Jerusalem. Here the tenth legion that came to him from Jericho was placed. Joseph. De Bello, lib. 6 c. 3. It was from this mountain that our Lord beheld Jerusalem, and predicted its future destruction, Luke 19:41, with Matthew 24:23; and it was from this mountain that he ascended to heaven, (Acts 1:12), utterly leaving an ungrateful and condemned city.

And half of the mountain shall remove - I really think that these words refer to the lines of circumvallation, to intrenchments, redoubts, etc., which the Romans made while carrying on the siege of this city; and particularly the lines or trenches which the army made on Mount Olivet itself.
Clarke

...........................

Divers things were foretold, in the two foregoing chapters, which should come to pass "in that day;" this chapter speaks of a "day of the Lord that cometh," a day of his judgment, and ten times in the foregoing chapters, and seven times in this, it is repeated, "in that day;" but what that day is that is here meant is uncertain, and perhaps will be so (as the Jews speak) till Elias comes...

In this chapter we have, I. Some further promises relating to gospel-times. Here is a promise of the remission of sins (v. 1), of the reformation of manners (v. 2), and particularly of the convicting and silencing of false prophets (v. 2-6). II. A clear prediction of the sufferings of Christ and the dispersion of his disciples thereupon (v. 7), of the destruction of the greater part of the Jewish nation not long after (v. 8), and of the purifying of a remnant of them, a peculiar people to God (v. 9).
Henry

The OT is not just about the old Israel and the Jews if (and it is ) prophetic. I do think there is alot in these scriptures that speak of Christ first coming . For out of our bellies shall flow living water.

1still_waters · Apr 7, 2013

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

You say of this translation of verse 5

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Then you shall flee through My mountain valley,
For the mountain valley shall reach to Azal.
Yes, you shall flee
As you fled from the earthquake
In the days of Uzziah king of Judah.

You suggest it's best translated at...

So let's plug that into the portion and see what it looks like...

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south.
The valley of my mountains shall be blocked up; and the valley of mountains shall be closed up even to Jasod [Jasol/Azal]. It shall be blocked up as it was in the days of the earthquake in the days of Ozias [Uzziah] king of Juda

It still fits my interpretation
God is acting with might.
His people are being given protection.
The enemies are blocked from stopping their return home..

Ezra 8 shows God's protection, and an ambush blocked, and a safe return/fleeing

[SUP]31 [/SUP]Then we departed from the river of Ahava on the twelfth day of the first month, to go to Jerusalem. And the hand of our God was upon us, and He delivered us from the hand of the enemy and from ambush along the road. [SUP]32 [/SUP]So we came to Jerusalem, and stayed there three days.
[SUP]33 [/SUP]Now on the fourth day the silver and the gold and the articles were weighed in the house of our God by the hand of Meremoth the son of Uriah the priest, and with him was Eleazar the son of Phinehas; with them were the Levites, Jozabad the son of Jeshua and Noadiah the son of Binnui, [SUP]34 [/SUP]with the number and weight of everything. All the weight was written down at that time.
[SUP]35 [/SUP]The children of those who had been carried away captive, who had come from the captivity, offered burnt offerings to the God of Israel: twelve bulls for all Israel, ninety-six rams, seventy-seven lambs, and twelve male goats as a sin offering. All this was a burnt offering to the Lord.
[SUP]36 [/SUP]And they delivered the king’s orders to the king’s satraps and the governors in the regionbeyond the River. So they gave support to the people and the house of God.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Apr 7, 2013

Yours is certainly a novel interpretation that I have never heard before.

1still_waters · Apr 7, 2013

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

I just looked for the entire translation you consider correct.
I couldn't find it.
Your translation gets cut off.

Could you provide a complete text from verses 3-7 from what you consider the most correct translation?
I'd like to see how that complete translation measures up against how I'm interpreting it.

Also since..

...appears snipped, I think it would be beneficial to include the surrounding context, just so we can get a valid interpretation. The appearance of snipping makes any resulting interpretation highly suspect to me.

1still_waters · Apr 7, 2013

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

Lol well.....I just figure Zechariah is written before ezra/nehemiah.
Zechariah 14 is about restoring to the land.
Ezra/Nehemiah show a restoring to the land.

The chronology fits.
The broad strokes appear to fit.....

So ya never know.

peacefulbeliever · Apr 7, 2013

HeRoseFromTheDead said:

Where did you get the REAL version of Zechariah 14:5?

Where is the battle that was fought when Jesus feet stood on Mount Olive?

Oh and let's just disregard "Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him." Yes I can see that is an informed way to look at scripture.

HeRoseFromTheDead · Apr 7, 2013

1still_waters said:

I don't have verses 3-7 but you can see them in any of these bibles, or any Septuagint (LXX) version:

New Jerusalem Bible
New American Bible
New English Bible
Concordant Literal Version
Tanakh: The Holy Scriptures
Orthodox Study Bible
New English Translation of the LXX
Apostolic Bible Polyglot
Complete Apostles’ Bible

FYI, the first two are the two most popular bibles in the Roman Catholic Church (1.2 billion members). The LXX version of Zechariah 14:5 is found in bibles used by the entire Eastern Orthodox Church (225-300 million members) and some of the Oriental Orthodox Churches. The Tanakh is published by the Jewish Publication Society, whose stated editorial policy is to favor the MT, but has used the LXX version of this verse in a series of publications since about 1985. Just a few Protestant bibles have the LXX reading (e.g., New English Bible, Concordant Literal Version). So the LXX version of Zechariah 14:5 is by no means a fringe translation. Probably appears in more bibles in the entire world than the other version does.

Here is a literal translation of verses 4 -5 I did from the LXX. The first sentence is missing, but it is the same as in your bible. Also, I left off the last part about all saints coming:

The Mount of Olives will tear apart from its eastward half, a vehemently great chaos westward; and the north- and south-facing halves of the mountain summit will fall. And the valley of my mountains will be closed up and filled in as far as Azal, as it was closed up during the earthquake in the days of Uzziah, king of Judah. …
Zechariah 14:4-5, LXX, Apostolic Bible Polyglot, less literal translation

Deciphering Zechariah 14:5

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