Exactly when and what triggered the ceasing of the gifts of the Spirit?

[zone]

So do you Love all Zone or just those that Love you?

you'd be really surprised home
about love.

.....

what does me answering about CHURCH, the Lord's Church, the Lord's flock and the shepherds he placed over them have to do with me loving others (or others loving me)?

what part of this didn't you like:

"well, we don't make a point of gathering with other denominations to share ideas.

we know what the other denominations believe.

we do missions and outreach with all kinds of people, and other denominations - provided it doesn't require us to do anything which goes against our convictions - for example....activism for ordination of gays in ministry. no...we don't come together over things like that.

as for community service, individuals do that as they are led.
avenues for service are posted at the church.

our church exists for the SHEEP first.
for care and feeding of Christ's sheep.

i know that sounds opposed to what you may have been taught."

.....

was it this part?

our church exists for the SHEEP first.
for care and feeding of Christ's sheep.

John 21
Jesus and Peter
15When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Feed my lambs.” 16He said to him a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” He said to him, “Yes, Lord; you know that I love you.” He said to him, “Tend my sheep.” 17He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love me?” Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, “Do you love me?” and he said to him, “Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you.” Jesus said to him, “Feed my sheep..."

boskó: to feed
Original Word: βόσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: boskó
Phonetic Spelling: (bos'-ko)
Short Definition: I feed
Definition: I feed, pasture.

1006 bóskō – properly, feed (graze); (figuratively) spiritually nourish by feeding people the Word of God (Jn 21:15,17). While 4166 (poimḗn) focuses on "shepherding" the flock of God (caring for them), 1006 (bóskō) stresses feeding them His Word.

poimainó: to act as a shepherd
Original Word: ποιμαίνω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: poimainó
Phonetic Spelling: (poy-mah'-ee-no)
Short Definition: I shepherd, tend
Definition: I shepherd, tend, herd; hence: I rule, govern.

Cognate: 4165 poimaínō – properly, to shepherd, caring for (protecting) the flock.

4165 /poimaínō ("shepherding, pastoring") is distinct from "feeding" (1006 /bóskō). 4165 (poimaínō) focuses on "tending" ("shepherding") (WS, 274), which includes guarding, guiding, and folding the flock and is only provided (ultimately) by Jesus Christ – the Shepherd, who calls under-shepherds (such as elder-overseers) to guard and guide His people by His direction (1 Pet 5:1-5). See 4166 (poimēn).

[4165 /poimaínō ("to shepherd, tend") occurs 11 times in the NT, usually with a figurative sense of "shepherding (tending) God's flock." This provides Spirit-directed guidance (care) conjunction with feeding His people (teaching them Scripture).]

 

[zone]

Zone do you believe that your Church is the only one right along with others that believe the exact same only?

i don't know what you mean by believe the exact same.

do you mean

1) do i believe my Church is the only one right along with others that believe the exact same only - concerning JESUS CHRIST AND THE GOSPEL AND GOD'S WORD AND PLAN?

or

2) do i think and say the LCMS is the only church, as many others (like Rome) say there is no salvation outside the Church of Rome?

...

no need to answer, i think i know what you meant.
k...thx

 

[zone]

No you are right if we are a believer and God has recieved us God will not go to my Brother and tello my brother to tell me something God will tell his children directly. Just as I will not go to my daughter and tell her to tell her sister something I want her to know. No I would tell her directly
And is why we have such a hight Priest that lives forever making intercesion for us all.
Gifts of the spirit are for unbelievers, just like Law uis for the Lawbreakers not the believers

okay...so if you wouldn't believe someone who came and said "home, God told me to tell you something"...does that mean you think the person is

a) lying
b) deluded
c) deceived
d) well intentioned but misguided

and, does it matter?
if so, what on earth are you on my case for?

 

[zone]

So those that claim t have gifts of God are what then? In the sight of Zone and her Church? Or what in the sight of God?

you tell me.

one post prior you said you wouldn't believe someone who claimed to be bringing you a message from God.
anyways. whatever.

 

[zone]

Doctrines are viewpoints... from peoples perspectives in there encounters " one on one" relationships with God, inspired words written in a book by the hand of god . Thoughts God "himself" , not a doctrine gave them .. Think "outside the box " of the book ..
how was the bible formed? before it ever came to be?
Many people are being deviced and short changed in the "corrupt belief" .. they can't do the same ..
There is coming a time .. the generations to follow .. Will not know Wich one is true ..
there is only one... Man can't give it .. Because man keeps changing it ..
we are to be inspired by God... One on One..
This is the reason war exists ..
man does not believe God can do this with Him..

doctrine means teaching.
Christ's teaching.
it's in the Book.

2 John 1:10
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your home, and don't say, "Welcome," to him;

Think "outside the box " of the book ..

um...no thanks.

 

[coconut]

coconut, that all sounds good.
but we can't lose sight of what the topic is.

we are beginning to shave down the original issue - did the supernatural gifts in Acts/Corinth etc continue throughout church history?

the answer is no. they were partial and miraculous. for that time.

what we have is better. complete.

it's supposed to be anyways.

that completion or unity we are clearly told comes from growing up and into the faith delivered once for all.

we have already been given everything we need to mature in the faith.

John 17:17
“Father, sanctify them by your truth, because your word is truth.”

It's not that it sounds good, but rather it is GOOD and it is SOUND and it is the way it is in the local church if that local church wants to take up that kind of cross and follow Christ and obey doctrine. I have not lost sight of a thing or shaved down a thing, you just can't accept the balance and good doctrine that edifies the body and utilizes that body for the work of the ministry. You don't want the gifts operating in the local church because that might threaten your understanding and God only knows you can't have or be around that stuff. You don't want to deal with the issues that involve details and the gifts of the Spirit in the local church. I am not interested in dead orthodoxy or in a ministry that thinks they have it right without the life of the Spirit that raised Christ from the dead. I have been there and done that and it is dead but has all the right doctrine in their mind. If we can't put God's word into action by faith what good are we. If we can't be filled with the Spirit, what good are we. If we can't be quickened by the Spirit and be energized with the life of God, what good are we, we're like dead fish out of water, lifeless. Some people just don't like being challenged because of their intellect and that is unfortunate.

 

[Elizabeth619]

It's not that it sounds good, but rather it is GOOD and it is SOUND and it is the way it is in the local church if that local church wants to take up that kind of cross and follow Christ and obey doctrine. I have not lost sight of a thing or shaved down a thing, you just can't accept the balance and good doctrine that edifies the body and utilizes that body for the work of the ministry. You don't want the gifts operating in the local church because that might threaten your understanding and God only knows you can't have or be around that stuff. You don't want to deal with the issues that involve details and the gifts of the Spirit in the local church. I am not interested in dead orthodoxy or in a ministry that thinks they have it right without the life of the Spirit that raised Christ from the dead. I have been there and done that and it is dead but has all the right doctrine in their mind. If we can't put God's word into action by faith what good are we. If we can't be filled with the Spirit, what good are we. If we can't be quickened by the Spirit and be energized with the life of God, what good are we, we're like dead fish out of water, lifeless. Some people just don't like being challenged because of their intellect and that is unfortunate.

So according to you a person who doesn't believe in supernatural gifts of today is "lifeless".
Wow.

 

[coconut]

So according to you a person who doesn't believe in supernatural gifts of today is "lifeless".
Wow.

I have no idea how you have come to that conclusion because I have not mentioned anything about supernatural gifts that you and Zone have referred to, concerning the acts of the apostles and what was wrought by those gifts. Those gifts as they were used in the early church were given to establish the church as a body with a new covenant and new promises. That is our foundation today and the gifts of the Spirit that we, the church, have been given in this life are for the edification of the body and the work of the ministry. Elizabeth, do you know or have any idea what dead orthodoxy is? Why be inwardly reactionary when things are said to certain ones that you have a high regard for. They just might need to be challenged in the light just like we all are from time to time and hopefully more often than not.

 

[annointedshepherd]

There is a time and place for everything(Ecc Chapter 3)). Laughing incoherently in worship is not biblical. Scripture plainly says there is to be order in the church.

Proverbs 14:13 Even in laughter the heart may ache, and rejoicing may end in grief.

Laughter cannot give you truth. Just because a person laughs doesn't always mean they are happy, content or even more holy. It can also be a sign of anger, revenge, and even madness(insanity)

Nowhere in the scriptures does it say that uncontrollable laughter is the fruit of the spirit.

There was no one on this Earth that was filled with the spirit more than Jesus, and nowhere in scripture is it recordedwhere he laughed in such a way.
You, yourself have stated you did not know why you were laughing. That would mean you were confused by it wouldn't it?
1 Cor 14:33 tells us God is not the God of confusion, but the God of peace as in ALL churches

it wasnt in worship it was when they laid there hands on me then the Power of God Hit me
and i feel like i would be getting in a debate or an argument if i egged on so therefore i will discontinue posting messages on this thread cause i dont argue nor debate so may God Bless you and make you Fruitful In Jesus Name Love you sister

 

[unclefester]

Why be so occupied with Pentecostals or Charismatics and what they believe and practice. Thank God for them and what God has called them to do.

Maybe you missed this the first time. What I don't believe is people who claim to have the same power and authority today that God granted to His chosen apostles and prophets of old at the onset of establishing Christ's church. Those who make such claims are not called by God to do anything. They are deceiving themselves .... and the innocents who follow them. Do you understand this ?? I know they don't like hearing people like me telling them so. Let me put your mind to rest. They're not listening anyways. They have people like you telling them that what they're doing is okay. They "know" they have the spirit and can prove it. Many speak in a "heavenly gibberish" and call it tongues. Continue to encourage this bogus and immature nonsense all you like. You are the one responsible for that. I'll call it what it is.

 

[annointedshepherd]

Maybe you missed this the first time. What I don't believe is people who claim to have the same power and authority today that God granted to His chosen apostles and prophets of old at the onset of establishing Christ's church. Those who make such claims are not called by God to do anything. They are deceiving themselves .... and the innocents who follow them. Do you understand this ?? I know they don't like hearing people like me telling them so. Let me put your mind to rest. They're not listening anyways. They have people like you telling them that what they're doing is okay. They "know" they have the spirit and can prove it. Many speak in a "heavenly gibberish" and call it tongues. Continue to encourage this bogus and immature nonsense all you like. You are the one responsible for that. I'll call it what it is.

sorry i must say something i dissagree with you on that stand point there are still apostle and prophets today plus they where not more powerful then today because it wasnt them that had power the Holy Spirit worked threw them He did the signs wonders and miracles not them and the Holy Spirit still does them today for those who are willing

 

[damombomb]

sorry i must say something i dissagree with you on that stand point there are still apostle and prophets today plus they where not more powerful then today because it wasnt them that had power the Holy Spirit worked threw them He did the signs wonders and miracles not them and the Holy Spirit still does them today for those who are willing

Amen annontedshapard. I would love go go to your church

 

[Elizabeth619]

I have no idea how you have come to that conclusion because I have not mentioned anything about supernatural gifts that you and Zone have referred to, concerning the acts of the apostles and what was wrought by those gifts. Those gifts as they were used in the early church were given to establish the church as a body with a new covenant and new promises. That is our foundation today and the gifts of the Spirit that we, the church, have been given in this life are for the edification of the body and the work of the ministry. Elizabeth, do you know or have any idea what dead orthodoxy is? Why be inwardly reactionary when things are said to certain ones that you have a high regard for. They just might need to be challenged in the light just like we all are from time to time and hopefully more often than not.

Well, considering this thread is about gifts, and you often defend supernatural gifts in multiple threads it is only natural to assume that you were referring to such.
You are correct that gifts were needed to establish the church. Guess what? The church has been established, and nowhere in the scriptures does it say that spiritual gifts are the foundation of the church. They were used to help lay the foundation.
What is really sad is that there is more talk about supernatural gifts than the one gift that is most important. SALVATION.

 

[Elizabeth619]

It's pretty interesting that many say certain gifts do not happen because people do not believe.
Romans 11:29 says Gods gifts are irrevocable. So gifts never ceased because people didn't believe.

 

[BrantH]

1Cor 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1Cor 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
1Cor 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

All the gifts the apostles had and the gifts of 1cor 12 were miraculous gifts that was given to spread the word of God. The only way we could have those gifts today was if the apostle were still alive to impart them to us. They were the only one besides Jesus that could give them out.


Mt 10:1 Jesus giving out the gifts.
And when he had called unto [him] his twelve disciples, he gave them power [against] unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

The apostle Paul giving out the gifts Acts 19:1-6

And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Acts 19:2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Acts 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Acts 19:5 When they heard [this], they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Acts 19:6 And when Paul had laid [his] hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Apostles Peter and John giving out the gifts Acts 8:12-18

But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Acts 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Acts 8:14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Acts 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Acts 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Acts 8:17 Then laid they [their] hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
Acts 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

All of the apostles have died so did the giving of the miraculous gifts along with them.

We now have that which is perfect. James 1: 25
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. Hope this answer your question. Very good question by the way.

 

[onlinebuddy]

It's pretty interesting that many say certain gifts do not happen because people do not believe.
Romans 11:29 says Gods gifts are irrevocable. So gifts never ceased because people didn't believe.

I haven't read all posts; so I don't know which one you are responding to. However, I would like to generally mention the following:

The gifts of the Holy Spirit were given to enhance the purpose (and reveal the will) of God to an unbelieving world. They were also given to edify the first century church.

When people say that the magnitude and intensity of miracles have been reduced due to "lack of faith," they are saying that their lack of faith can hinder the purpose of God, or stop the revelation of His will to mankind.

The purpose of God prevails, irrespective of man's lack of faith. If one person lacks faith, God will choose another. In psychological terms, this problem (of saying that God cannot work because of lack of faith) is called Rationalization.

I know of many people even today, who are pure in their ways and very faithful. However, they do not claim to have the same measure of the Holy Spirit that the first century apostles had...nor do they call themselves apostles.

Yes, lack of faith may hinder one's personal progress (or healing), but it can never thwart the purpose of God.

 

[onlinebuddy]

sorry i must say something i dissagree with you on that stand point there are still apostle and prophets today plus they where not more powerful then today because it wasnt them that had power the Holy Spirit worked threw them He did the signs wonders and miracles not them and the Holy Spirit still does them today for those who are willing

To anointedshepherd, and others on CC (apologies for repeating some things)

the Holy Spirit still does them today

Whether there are still apostles or prophets today, I will not discuss at the moment.
However, if it is the same Holy Spirit why can't we see the same kind of signs and wonders today?

for those who are willing

I guess you are among those who are willing. Can you give us tangible evidence of what signs and wonders the Holy Spirit has done in your life?

Now I am not talking about transformations (changes of heart) such as being cured of drug addiction or pornography or homosexuality. All of us were in sin, and have been forgiven and set free when we called upon the Lord. However, these are NOT signs and wonders. These are the manifestations of the Holy Spirit's work in our personal lives, and are a result of our faith, repentance and acceptance of Christ's lordship. These changes are supernatural all right(the result of divine intervention in our lives), but can't be termed as "signs and wonders," although they are no less.

Some signs and wonders that we see in the first century church are:
the dead were raised
the blind could see
the deaf could hear
the mute could speak
the crippled could walk
demons were exorcised
Saul was blinded
There was an earthquake
tongues of fire descended on them
Paul was bitten by a poisonous snake and survived

These are tangible evidences.

Too often, I see the following on TV and in person:
headaches cured
backaches cured
pets being healed
people having fits of laughter
people uncontrollably shaking
people rolling all over the floor

Furthermore, most of these self-proclaimed evangelists and prophets are arrogant towards the congregation. They "lord it" over the people. There is a big difference between godly authority and arrogance. These showmen gain great popularity and those who do not read the Bibles believe in them. Those who know their bibles do not get deceived by them.

The problem is that most believers do not know the difference between HISTORICAL FACTS and GENERAL COMMANDS of God. These believers do not have the discernment from the Holy Spirit to know that ALTHOUGH THE BIBLE CONTAINS EVERYTHING WE NEED FOR RIGHTEOUS LIVING, EVERYTHING IN THE BIBLE DOES NOT APPLY TO US! They therefore follow these showmen who misinterpret the Word of God for their own benefit.

[Not to mention, that many churches today have become "communities" where one feels comfortable and where one meets like-minded people. Christ is no longer the head; the pastor makes the rules (including, and especially, money matters). Their doctrine is based on some tradition that the members will defend at all costs.]

A TRUE DISCIPLE/ APOSTLE/ PROPHET of God will decrease so that Christ will increase. No other way! They don't hog the limelight, and they definitely do not control the money. If you say that there are apostles and prophets today, please GIVE ME THEIR NAMES (or weblinks). I would like to sincerely find out more about them (if and when I have the time).

All said and done, I do believe that the Holy Spirit can do wonders today. It's HIS AGE after all. However, most of the so called signs and wonders I see around are a watered down version of the first century signs and wonders. Yes, I have heard certain testimonies that I could not refute, and am speechless and humbled.

 

[pickles]

Ill share a few examples.
Drs said my son would never be able to talk.
Today he is very articulate!
I was told I would need surgury to walk.
I asked Jesus to heal my feet and they were healed, and now I walk, without surgury.
Drs said my infant son would need surgury to eat, the tests proved this.
My son was healed, and was able to eat, no surgury, and drs cannot explain.
Years later, it was found out if my son had , had surgury, he would have died, as he has severe reaction to the anistesia.
I have seen God's power given through His Holy Spirit in Jesus Christ is Lord come in the flesh.
It is seen not through doubtful eyes, for we know this by the comments of those who refused to believe in scripture.
But known by faith in Jesus Christ is Lord come in the flesh.

God bless
pickles

 

[onlinebuddy]

Ill share a few examples.
Drs said my son would never be able to talk.
Today he is very articulate!
I was told I would need surgury to walk.
I asked Jesus to heal my feet and they were healed, and now I walk, without surgury.
Drs said my infant son would need surgury to eat, the tests proved this.
My son was healed, and was able to eat, no surgury, and drs cannot explain.
Years later, it was found out if my son had , had surgury, he would have died, as he has severe reaction to the anistesia.
I have seen God's power given through His Holy Spirit in Jesus Christ is Lord come in the flesh.
It is seen not through doubtful eyes, for we know this by the comments of those who refused to believe in scripture.
But known by faith in Jesus Christ is Lord come in the flesh.

God bless
pickles

Thanks for sharing. I do believe that God does miracles even today, in response to prayer. I have nowhere disputed that.

I am asking questions about dramatical and extra biblical activities that are attributed to the Holy Spirit, such as rolling all over the floor and laughing uncontrollably, etc. These have no biblical precedent.

May God continue to bless you and keep you and your family healed and happy!

 

[pickles]

Ok, I understand.

God bless

pickles