So Ive been reading the quran here and there, and Ive seen some verses being thrown around that arent really what they seem to be, so Ive decided to to make a thread about it so that we can talk about it, and maybe people more knowledgeable than me can share some stuff too : p
Im bringing up something I read today, but anything about the quran can be discussed.
Anything related to the quran can be discussed. BUT, if you want to make the argument that Islam is a peaceful religion, avoid talking about Muslims alone. Since this is about the quran, try to keep it about the quran alone, using arguments from it.
Note: the topic is the quran, for those who do not know, Islam exists to deny Jesus Christ of the Gospel. Be aware that there will be verses about Him that are false, and that the quran denies Him of His divinity and claims He was "nothing more than a messenger" of allah.
So theres a popular quran verse Ive been seeing floating around online lately in defense of Islam. Its a verse from chapter 60 of the quran. Heres the verse.
Quran 60:8
"Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly."
So, this verse on its own, with nothing else around it, has been appearing here and there online. And yeah, it totally sounds reasonable and seems to fit inline with what those who speak out in defense of Islam say. It doesnt command to fight unbelievers, it only says that self defense against those who attack Muslims is acceptable. So I decided to read the chapter myself.
Its funny though, cuz when I googled Quran 60, I just got multiple links to this one single verse : p Keep in mind I did not google Quran 60:8. I only googled Quran 60. Thats how much others want you to see this one verse : p
I did find the chapter though, here is the entire chapter, and Im gonna bold a few verses here and there to make a point-
Quran 60-
O you who have believed, do not take My enemies and your enemies as allies, extending to them affection while they have disbelieved in what came to you of the truth, having driven out the Prophet and yourselves [only] because you believe in Allah, your Lord. If you have come out for jihad in My cause and seeking means to My approval, [take them not as friends]. You confide to them affection, but I am most knowing of what you have concealed and what you have declared. And whoever does it among you has certainly strayed from the soundness of the way.
If they gain dominance over you, they would be to you as enemies and extend against you their hands and their tongues with evil, and they wish you would disbelieve.
Never will your relatives or your children benefit you; the Day of Resurrection He will judge between you. And Allah, of what you do, is Seeing.
There has already been for you an excellent pattern in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people, "Indeed, we are disassociated from you and from whatever you worship other than Allah . We have denied you, and there has appeared between us and you animosity and hatred forever until you believe in Allah alone" except for the saying of Abraham to his father, "I will surely ask forgiveness for you, but I have not [power to do] for you anything against Allah . Our Lord, upon You we have relied, and to You we have returned, and to You is the destination.
Our Lord, make us not [objects of] torment for the disbelievers and forgive us, our Lord. Indeed, it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise."
There has certainly been for you in them an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day. And whoever turns away - then indeed, Allah is the Free of need, the Praiseworthy.
Perhaps Allah will put, between you and those to whom you have been enemies among them, affection. And Allah is competent, and Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.
Allah only forbids you from those who fight you because of religion and expel you from your homes and aid in your expulsion - [forbids] that you make allies of them. And whoever makes allies of them, then it is those who are the wrongdoers.
O you who have believed, when the believing women come to you as emigrants, examine them. Allah is most knowing as to their faith. And if you know them to be believers, then do not return them to the disbelievers; they are not lawful [wives] for them, nor are they lawful [husbands] for them. But give the disbelievers what they have spent. And there is no blame upon you if you marry them when you have given them their due compensation. And hold not to marriage bonds with disbelieving women, but ask for what you have spent and let them ask for what they have spent. That is the judgement of Allah ; He judges between you. And Allah is Knowing and Wise.
And if you have lost any of your wives to the disbelievers and you subsequently obtain [something], then give those whose wives have gone the equivalent of what they had spent. And fear Allah, in whom you are believers.
O Prophet, when the believing women come to you pledging to you that they will not associate anything with Allah, nor will they steal, nor will they commit unlawful sexual intercourse, nor will they kill their children, nor will they bring forth a slander they have invented between their arms and legs, nor will they disobey you in what is right - then accept their pledge and ask forgiveness for them of Allah . Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
O you who have believed, do not make allies of a people with whom Allah has become angry. They have despaired of [reward in] the Hereafter just as the disbelievers have despaired of [meeting] the inhabitants of the graves.
[END]
Theres a few lines I wanted to point out here-
I believe that there is a strong case here for the argument that this chapter isnt entirely about just living in peace with the non-believers, but living in peace with them WHEN it is beneficial to do so, as in, when they are not the majority of the population of a certain area, and are in danger of being the ones who would be persecuted.
I decided to go ahead and read the next chapter as well, just to feed my curiosity here : p
Quran chapter 61-
Whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth exalts Allah, and He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.
O you who have believed, why do you say what you do not do?
Great is hatred in the sight of Allah that you say what you do not do.
Indeed, Allah loves those who fight in His cause in a row as though they are a [single] structure joined firmly.
And [mention, O Muhammad], when Moses said to his people, "O my people, why do you harm me while you certainly know that I am the messenger of Allah to you?" And when they deviated, Allah caused their hearts to deviate. And Allah does not guide the defiantly disobedient people.
And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad." But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic."
And who is more unjust than one who invents about Allah untruth while he is being invited to Islam. And Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people.
They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah will perfect His light, although the disbelievers dislike it.
It is He who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although those who associate others with Allah dislike it.
O you who have believed, shall I guide you to a transaction that will save you from a painful punishment?
[It is that] you believe in Allah and His Messenger and strive in the cause of Allah with your wealth and your lives. That is best for you, if you should know.
He will forgive for you your sins and admit you to gardens beneath which rivers flow and pleasant dwellings in gardens of perpetual residence. That is the great attainment.
And [you will obtain] another [favor] that you love - victory from Allah and an imminent conquest ; and give good tidings to the believers.
O you who have believed, be supporters of Allah, as when Jesus, the son of Mary, said to the disciples, "Who are my supporters for Allah ?" The disciples said, "We are supporters of Allah ." And a faction of the Children of Israel believed and a faction disbelieved. So We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became dominant.
[END]
Id like to point out that last line there, that the Muslims of Israel who followed Jesus became dominant over the non-believers of Jesus, there is no recorded history of that AT ALL other than Muhammad saying it happened : p
But yeah, after reading this chapter, directly after chapter 60, it doesnt really seem to be about peace at all. It seems to be another chapter about victory and conquest, and dominating the non-believer.
I think its really for the best that people stop taking these one line verses in the quran about peace at face value, because there are often verses right after it that teach the exact opposite. There is so many verses about victory, conquest and dominance over the unbelievers and all other religions in the quran, but people always end up ignoring them because the once saw a nice sounding verses in the quran, or they knew a Muslim who was really cool once.
These are the kinda things we should be talking about when it comes to Islam, imo. I dont believe that most people will actually look into a verse that they are shown from the quran, much like an atheists will take one line from the Bible in order to paint Christianity as evil, while ignoring every other verse around it. It is entirely easy to be confused about what a doctrine teaches when you are only given one small verse while having no knowledge about the rest of it.
Im bringing up something I read today, but anything about the quran can be discussed.
Anything related to the quran can be discussed. BUT, if you want to make the argument that Islam is a peaceful religion, avoid talking about Muslims alone. Since this is about the quran, try to keep it about the quran alone, using arguments from it.
Note: the topic is the quran, for those who do not know, Islam exists to deny Jesus Christ of the Gospel. Be aware that there will be verses about Him that are false, and that the quran denies Him of His divinity and claims He was "nothing more than a messenger" of allah.
So theres a popular quran verse Ive been seeing floating around online lately in defense of Islam. Its a verse from chapter 60 of the quran. Heres the verse.
Quran 60:8
"Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly."
So, this verse on its own, with nothing else around it, has been appearing here and there online. And yeah, it totally sounds reasonable and seems to fit inline with what those who speak out in defense of Islam say. It doesnt command to fight unbelievers, it only says that self defense against those who attack Muslims is acceptable. So I decided to read the chapter myself.
Its funny though, cuz when I googled Quran 60, I just got multiple links to this one single verse : p Keep in mind I did not google Quran 60:8. I only googled Quran 60. Thats how much others want you to see this one verse : p
I did find the chapter though, here is the entire chapter, and Im gonna bold a few verses here and there to make a point-
Quran 60-
O you who have believed, do not take My enemies and your enemies as allies, extending to them affection while they have disbelieved in what came to you of the truth, having driven out the Prophet and yourselves [only] because you believe in Allah, your Lord. If you have come out for jihad in My cause and seeking means to My approval, [take them not as friends]. You confide to them affection, but I am most knowing of what you have concealed and what you have declared. And whoever does it among you has certainly strayed from the soundness of the way.
If they gain dominance over you, they would be to you as enemies and extend against you their hands and their tongues with evil, and they wish you would disbelieve.
Never will your relatives or your children benefit you; the Day of Resurrection He will judge between you. And Allah, of what you do, is Seeing.
There has already been for you an excellent pattern in Abraham and those with him, when they said to their people, "Indeed, we are disassociated from you and from whatever you worship other than Allah . We have denied you, and there has appeared between us and you animosity and hatred forever until you believe in Allah alone" except for the saying of Abraham to his father, "I will surely ask forgiveness for you, but I have not [power to do] for you anything against Allah . Our Lord, upon You we have relied, and to You we have returned, and to You is the destination.
Our Lord, make us not [objects of] torment for the disbelievers and forgive us, our Lord. Indeed, it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise."
There has certainly been for you in them an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day. And whoever turns away - then indeed, Allah is the Free of need, the Praiseworthy.
Perhaps Allah will put, between you and those to whom you have been enemies among them, affection. And Allah is competent, and Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
Allah does not forbid you from those who do not fight you because of religion and do not expel you from your homes - from being righteous toward them and acting justly toward them. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.
Allah only forbids you from those who fight you because of religion and expel you from your homes and aid in your expulsion - [forbids] that you make allies of them. And whoever makes allies of them, then it is those who are the wrongdoers.
O you who have believed, when the believing women come to you as emigrants, examine them. Allah is most knowing as to their faith. And if you know them to be believers, then do not return them to the disbelievers; they are not lawful [wives] for them, nor are they lawful [husbands] for them. But give the disbelievers what they have spent. And there is no blame upon you if you marry them when you have given them their due compensation. And hold not to marriage bonds with disbelieving women, but ask for what you have spent and let them ask for what they have spent. That is the judgement of Allah ; He judges between you. And Allah is Knowing and Wise.
And if you have lost any of your wives to the disbelievers and you subsequently obtain [something], then give those whose wives have gone the equivalent of what they had spent. And fear Allah, in whom you are believers.
O Prophet, when the believing women come to you pledging to you that they will not associate anything with Allah, nor will they steal, nor will they commit unlawful sexual intercourse, nor will they kill their children, nor will they bring forth a slander they have invented between their arms and legs, nor will they disobey you in what is right - then accept their pledge and ask forgiveness for them of Allah . Indeed, Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
O you who have believed, do not make allies of a people with whom Allah has become angry. They have despaired of [reward in] the Hereafter just as the disbelievers have despaired of [meeting] the inhabitants of the graves.
[END]
Theres a few lines I wanted to point out here-
If they gain dominance over you, they would be to you as enemies and extend against you their hands and their tongues with evil, and they wish you would disbelieve.
Our Lord, make us not [objects of] torment for the disbelievers and forgive us, our Lord. Indeed, it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.
Perhaps Allah will put, between you and those to whom you have been enemies among them, affection. And Allah is competent, and Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
I decided to go ahead and read the next chapter as well, just to feed my curiosity here : p
Quran chapter 61-
Whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth exalts Allah, and He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise.
O you who have believed, why do you say what you do not do?
Great is hatred in the sight of Allah that you say what you do not do.
Indeed, Allah loves those who fight in His cause in a row as though they are a [single] structure joined firmly.
And [mention, O Muhammad], when Moses said to his people, "O my people, why do you harm me while you certainly know that I am the messenger of Allah to you?" And when they deviated, Allah caused their hearts to deviate. And Allah does not guide the defiantly disobedient people.
And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad." But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic."
And who is more unjust than one who invents about Allah untruth while he is being invited to Islam. And Allah does not guide the wrongdoing people.
They want to extinguish the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah will perfect His light, although the disbelievers dislike it.
It is He who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, although those who associate others with Allah dislike it.
O you who have believed, shall I guide you to a transaction that will save you from a painful punishment?
[It is that] you believe in Allah and His Messenger and strive in the cause of Allah with your wealth and your lives. That is best for you, if you should know.
He will forgive for you your sins and admit you to gardens beneath which rivers flow and pleasant dwellings in gardens of perpetual residence. That is the great attainment.
And [you will obtain] another [favor] that you love - victory from Allah and an imminent conquest ; and give good tidings to the believers.
O you who have believed, be supporters of Allah, as when Jesus, the son of Mary, said to the disciples, "Who are my supporters for Allah ?" The disciples said, "We are supporters of Allah ." And a faction of the Children of Israel believed and a faction disbelieved. So We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became dominant.
[END]
Id like to point out that last line there, that the Muslims of Israel who followed Jesus became dominant over the non-believers of Jesus, there is no recorded history of that AT ALL other than Muhammad saying it happened : p
But yeah, after reading this chapter, directly after chapter 60, it doesnt really seem to be about peace at all. It seems to be another chapter about victory and conquest, and dominating the non-believer.
I think its really for the best that people stop taking these one line verses in the quran about peace at face value, because there are often verses right after it that teach the exact opposite. There is so many verses about victory, conquest and dominance over the unbelievers and all other religions in the quran, but people always end up ignoring them because the once saw a nice sounding verses in the quran, or they knew a Muslim who was really cool once.
These are the kinda things we should be talking about when it comes to Islam, imo. I dont believe that most people will actually look into a verse that they are shown from the quran, much like an atheists will take one line from the Bible in order to paint Christianity as evil, while ignoring every other verse around it. It is entirely easy to be confused about what a doctrine teaches when you are only given one small verse while having no knowledge about the rest of it.