Can atheists prove that atheism is based on facts and not fantasy?

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Grey

Guest
#101
#101
danschance said:
Agnostic-atheist is a new concept for me and a confusing one at that. An Atheist says their is no god while the agnostic shrugs and says, "I don't know if there is a god". I don't see how they can be blended into a third category and still claim to be logical. Maybe some day I will read up on it.

Now you mention you have a lack of belief and by that I assume you also claim a lack of belief is completely devoid of belief but is that logical? If I believe the Green Bay Packers will win super bowl next year, no one would argue that it is my belief. One the other hand if I say the Green Bay Packers will not win super bowl next year, that is still a belief. A lack of belief would be I don't know if the Packers will win superbowl next year.

Would you agree with that?
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Agnostic atheism is an uncertainty in the existence of a god(s) and a lack of belief in any. Essentially "I don't see it as likely but I don't have absolute certainty. I understand your point, Im not saying I believe there is no god, I don't have belief in a god. That doesn't entail me grooving that there isn't one, the idea that absolute certainty is near impossible is important on this topic.
 
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kenisyes

Guest
#102
#102
basebool said:
Ok im gonna make this simple and hope this can clear things up before i lose hope in humanity.

Atheist - doesn't believe in a god
Agnostic - doesn't know if there's a god
Anti-theist - believes there's no god
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This is not the definition I posted, and it has immediate implications for the whole thread. Danschance, what did you mean in the OP? Did you mean to ask the question of what I call an atheist (post 5), and Beisbool is here calling an anti-theist? Or did you mean to ask the question of what Beisbook is calling an atheist?
 
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danschance

Guest
#104
#104
kenisyes said:
This is not the definition I posted, and it has immediate implications for the whole thread. Danschance, what did you mean in the OP? Did you mean to ask the question of what I call an atheist (post 5), and Beisbool is here calling an anti-theist? Or did you mean to ask the question of what Beisbook is calling an atheist?
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I had asked Atheists (not agnostics or Atheist-agnostics) to explain what they believe and why.
I had not anticipated a hair splitting contest on terms. Unfortunately, I have gotten very little of what I had asked for.
 
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basebool

Banned
#105
May 12, 2013
157
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#105
danschance said:
I had asked Atheists (not agnostics or Atheist-agnostics) to explain what they believe and why.
I had not anticipated a hair splitting contest on terms. Unfortunately, I have gotten very little of what I had asked for.
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An atheist has the disbelief in a god. What other things they believe in are not exclusive to atheism.

Is this honestly hard for you to grasp?
 
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danschance

Guest
#106
#106
basebool said:
An atheist has the disbelief in a god. What other things they believe in are not exclusive to atheism.

Is this honestly hard for you to grasp?
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It is not a matter of grasping a concept. For me this is a matter of credibility. I have heard many, many times from atheists that they have a lack of belief in God. Yes, I grasp that but at the same I do not accept it.

It is my opinion that lack of a belief is and of itself, still a belief, not matter how hard you pound your fists.

If you say "There is no god." That is a belief, not a lack of a belief.
 
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Grey

Guest
#107
#107
danschance said:
It is not a matter of grasping a concept. For me this is a matter of credibility. I have heard many, many times from atheists that they have a lack of belief in God. Yes, I grasp that but at the same I do not accept it.

It is my opinion that lack of a belief is and of itself, still a belief, not matter how hard you pound your fists.

If you say "There is no god." That is a belief, not a lack of a belief.
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Great and thats why we say, or at least to the best of my knowledge, that we don't believe in a god, I'm not sure about basebool, but I don't have absolute certainty that there is or isn't one. Now the agnostic part of me (Im an agnostic atheist), says that I don't think its possible or likely that we can determine if there is or isn't one with absolute certainty. That could be qualified as a belief, but a lack of belief in something does not create a belief in itself.
 
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basebool

Banned
#108
May 12, 2013
157
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#108
danschance said:
It is not a matter of grasping a concept. For me this is a matter of credibility. I have heard many, many times from atheists that they have a lack of belief in God. Yes, I grasp that but at the same I do not accept it.

It is my opinion that lack of a belief is and of itself, still a belief, not matter how hard you pound your fists.

If you say "There is no god." That is a belief, not a lack of a belief.
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Is not a hobby a hobby?
Is doing nothing doing something?

I don't get why this is an issue, if i say i don't believe you, it's because i am not convinced based on your evidence that a god exists. Thats a rejection of the claim. Im not asserting no god, im rejecting a god to be true because theres no reason to believe in it.

If you still, after being explained this several times, then all i have to say is that my supposed belief is more justfied then yours. If you don't want me to go there, stop bringing it up
 
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danschance

Guest
#109
#109
That's OK. I guess we just can't see eye to eye. You say lack of belief and I say lack of belief is still a belief. At least the dictionary agrees with both of us:

a·the·ism

[ey-thee-iz-uh
m] Show IPAnoun
1.the doctrine or belief that there is no God.

2. disbelief in the existence of a supreme being or beings.
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basebool

Banned
#110
May 12, 2013
157
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#110
danschance said:
That's OK. I guess we just can't see eye to eye. You say lack of belief and I say lack of belief is still a belief. At least the dictionary agrees with both of us:
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If i say i believe there is no god, im then asserting there is no god. In that case, i have some baggage to prove that.

When i say i disbelieve, the only thing im doing is coming to a conclusion based on your claim of a god, which is that i'm not convinced that there is evidence of a god. That's it. It's not a belief that there is no god, its a disbelief of a god.

Now you can use dictionary definitions all you want and not think for yourself, or actually listen to what im telling you and understand what it means.
 
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danschance

Guest
#111
#111
Basbool,

If one choses to "disbelieve" that is still a belief.

If I say "Leprechauns do not exist" I am making a statement that I believe they do not exist. Somehow I came to the conclusion that Leprechauns do not exist. It is probably based on my view of the world and how things work.

On the other hand, a person who believes that fairy type creatures do exist, they may be more accepting that they exist, but in the end, they say "I don't know if they exist".

So let me ask you this. Do you believe Leprechauns exist? What reasons do you have to believe in them or not?
 
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Tethered

Guest
#112
#112
I'm with @Danschance here...
If you have a claim presented to you, you will actively form a belief (evidence dependent): False, Degrees of Uncertainty, True.
However, if a definition is unclear or not presented, then I can't form a belief.

A)The reason I choose disbelief as the best definition for atheism, is because:
It accounts for different definitions/claims of God(s); that haven't been presented (unclear or unproposed).
It is also politically significant to do so.

B)I also happen to believe (but not certain) that definitions I haven't heard of will fail to be uptaken by me... but this not something I can claim other people should do.
 
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danschance

Guest
#113
#113
Tethered said:
I'm with @Danschance here...
If you have a claim presented to you, you will actively form a belief (evidence dependent): False, Degrees of Uncertainty, True.
However, if a definition is unclear or not presented, then I can't form a belief.

A)The reason I choose disbelief as the best definition for atheism, is because:
It accounts for different definitions/claims of God(s); that haven't been presented (unclear or unproposed).
It is also politically significant to do so.

B)I also happen to believe (but not certain) that definitions I haven't heard of will fail to be uptaken by me... but this not something I can claim other people should do.
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Yes, but do you believe in Leprechauns? What do you base you opinions on about Leprechauns?
 
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danschance

Guest
#114
#114
OK, I will answer my own questions and see if others follow.

1) I do not believe leprechauns exist.

2) Why?
..a) I have never seen one.
..b) No proof of any Leprechauns exist. (No dead Leprechaun bodies have been found, no photos etc.)
..c) They are made up creatures to entertain children.
 
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Naza

Banned
#115
Jun 15, 2013
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#115
Well, that's not that difficult, when we consider that those who claim to know the mind of god believe in such ridicule nonsense like that the earth is just some thousands years old, that humans and dinosaurs coexisted, that the earth is the most important place in the universe, that it was made magically, that it was completely covered in water some time ago, ETC

Just because an old book says so

you must believe it by faith, or in other words, just believe it with no reasons, because you don't have any evidence that supports it

You then chain to lies because you are dependant of them, and that chain is called faith. You must renounce to critical thinking, to curiosity (looking for the truth)... It even makes you feel comfortable in ignorance
And that's why you must deny scientific knowledge, deny reallity itself, because it is far more beautiful than those primitive fantasies. And it's what the evidence indicates

I don't know if a god exists, what I'm sure about is that your god is a pity human creation, made by sattisfie our ignorance and to give us a frame to guide our lifes. The fear to death and the unknown, along with the arrogance that you are the favourite creature of god and you will live forever, is the fuel for your belief... you believe because you desire, because you have become dependant and slaves for those lies, because you have renounced to reason
 
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danschance

Guest
#116
#116
Naza said:
Well, that's not that difficult, when we consider that those who claim to know the mind of god believe in such ridicule nonsense like that the earth is just some thousands years old, that humans and dinosaurs coexisted, that the earth is the most important place in the universe, that it was made magically, that it was completely covered in water some time ago, ETC

Just because an old book says so

you must believe it by faith, or in other words, just believe it with no reasons, because you don't have any evidence that supports it

You then chain to lies because you are dependant of them, and that chain is called faith. You must renounce to critical thinking, to curiosity (looking for the truth)... It even makes you feel comfortable in ignorance
And that's why you must deny scientific knowledge, deny reallity itself, because it is far more beautiful than those primitive fantasies. And it's what the evidence indicates

I don't know if a god exists, what I'm sure about is that your god is a pity human creation, made by sattisfie our ignorance and to give us a frame to guide our lifes. The fear to death and the unknown, along with the arrogance that you are the favourite creature of god and you will live forever, is the fuel for your belief... you believe because you desire, because you have become dependant and slaves for those lies, because you have renounced to reason
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((HUGS)) Jesus loves you. :)
 
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Tethered

Guest
#117
#117
danschance said:
Yes, but do you believe in Leprechauns? What do you base you opinions on about Leprechauns?
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I believe they are false. I don't claim 100% knowledge, 99.99% (a feeling).

Opinions are likely based on that if I request proof of leprechauns, I get storys and biasly interpretted images. Low degree of anecdotal evidence doesn't help. Appeal to magic (things are are not yet known to be possible)... etc
 
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danschance

Guest
#118
#118
Tethered said:
I believe they are false. I don't claim 100% knowledge, 99.99% (a feeling).

Opinions are likely based on that if I request proof of leprechauns, I get storys and biasly interpretted images. Low degree of anecdotal evidence doesn't help. Appeal to magic (things are are not yet known to be possible)... etc
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Oh come on... You are way over thinking this. You know Leprechauns do not exist and so do I. I'm not asking for a PhD dissertation on why Leprechauns do not exist. I'm asking you what you believe about little dudes sitting on top of a pot of Gold at the end of a rainbow and in anutshell why you believe that.

I can't make this any simpler than this.
 
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Tethered

Guest
#119
#119
danschance said:
Oh come on... You are way over thinking this. You know Leprechauns do not exist and so do I. I'm not asking for a PhD dissertation on why Leprechauns do not exist. I'm asking you what you believe about little dudes sitting on top of a pot of Gold at the end of a rainbow and in anutshell why you believe that.

I can't make this any simpler than this.
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Dude :p I just said I believe they are false.
Secondly, I don't want to subscribe to black and white thinking when I have your magnifying lense looking at me. Black and white is for summarizing and shorthand in every day language.

...also I think there is a misunderstanding somewhere; in what kind of format are you expecting my rationale?
 
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danschance

Guest
#120
#120
...also I think there is a misunderstanding somewhere; in what kind of format are you expecting my rationale?
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See what I mean by over thinking this? ^^^^^^
 
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