Minister Calling Himself/Herself an Apostle....

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Noel139

Senior Member
Jul 1, 2013
196
1
18
31
#1
I went to a church not to long ago where the person who was preaching called themselves an Apostle and that doesn't sit too well with me. They were acting as if they were infallible. I am going to share something with you guys that may shock you: Not every leader is an Apostle. You cannot just give yourself that title. I do not care who you are, you cannot give yourself a title that Y'shua (Head of the church) has not given you. Here is what the guy who wrote my Bible said in the Glossary (It is the One New Man translation and not very common so you will not be able to look this stuff up online):


Apostle is the English spelling of the Greek word used to describe someone who is sent. There was a position in the ancient synagogues for someone who was sent there from another synagogue to another or to authorities in Jerusalem or to some school in order to get the correct interpretation of the Scripture. The Hebrew name of this office is Shelahim, a plural noun meaning the ones sent. The Apostles in the New Testament were sent from Jerusalem to outlying areas to bring correct interpretation to early Christian synagogues. Some of these Apostles were promoting themselves and not focusing on the Jerusalem agenda. Paul referred to them in 2 Cor. 11:12. "But what I am Doing, and I shall keep on doing, so that I will cut off the opportunity of those who want opportunity, so that in whom they are boasting they would have been found just like us. 13. For such false Apostles as these are deceitful workers disguising themselves as Apostles of Messiah. 14. And no wonder: for satan disguises himself as an angel of light. (Isa. 14:12) 15. Therefore it is not great of his, satan's, servants also are disguised as servants of righteousness: whose end will be according to their works" Today we have people in ministry who, like those false Apostles, do not submit to any authority, but claim to report only to GOD (Much like those Mega-church preachers.). Each one of us in ministry needs to be accountable to some organization or board so we do not go off in error like those Paul wrote about.

The first century Apostles did not have organization other than the council in Jerusalem; they simply went out, with more than one going to the same congregations. In the first century there were no churches, just synagogues and home congregations, even if a congregation was all non-Jewish. We know about Paul's submission to the council in Jerusalem, especially from Acts 15 and Acts 21:23. Just what Phoebe's responsibilities is not clear, but Paul refers to her in Rom. 16:1 as being from Cencrae, the sister city of Corinth, being set over others, even himself.

The Latin word for Apostle is missionare, meaning to send, which gives us a better handle on the role of the Apostle. Our Western minds require organizations with managers and organization charts, but that is not what the Middle Eastern mind requires, so a complex organization is no what Paul and other New Testament authors understood the word translated Apostles to mean.

I cannot call myself an Apostle unless the LORD calls me that first. Do not touch a title unless GOD has given it to you first and to do flaunt it to people for the sake of your pride.
 
U

Ugly

Guest
#2
Lots of people give themselves titles from the gifts listed in the bible. The most popular seems to be 'prophet'. Lots of people run around proclaiming they're prophets. Personally i am not a believer in the gifts still being valid, so none of it sits well with me.
 
D

danschance

Guest
#3
Go on Facebook and people assume titles (Prophet, seer, bishop, etc.) and advertise it like candy. I know one man who claims to be a "Master" in Christianity.

He claims Jesus was a master and now he is too. Which he claims means he will soon fly and perform miracles. I am always amazed at people who buy into this nonsense.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#4
Most of the real ones just do the job. They won't even tell you if they are asked. What you say is true, there is much abuse of titles. Just think how we call almost any career preacher a "pastor" and just about anyone who posts a blog about God on internet a "teacher". Or what we have done with the word "prophet".

I am curious about the word "shelahim" as I have never heard it before. What is the Hebrew spelling? Is it related to "selah" of the psalms?
 

Noel139

Senior Member
Jul 1, 2013
196
1
18
31
#5
Most of the real ones just do the job. They won't even tell you if they are asked. What you say is true, there is much abuse of titles. Just think how we call almost any career preacher a "pastor" and just about anyone who posts a blog about God on internet a "teacher". Or what we have done with the word "prophet".

I am curious about the word "shelahim" as I have never heard it before. What is the Hebrew spelling? Is it related to "selah" of the psalms?

Exactly! I do not see the correlation between the word "Shelahim" and "Selah". I looked up "Selah" and saw that it meant pause or stop; something of the sort and "Shelahim", as said in my post, means the ones who are sent.
 

Noel139

Senior Member
Jul 1, 2013
196
1
18
31
#6
Lots of people give themselves titles from the gifts listed in the bible. The most popular seems to be 'prophet'. Lots of people run around proclaiming they're prophets. Personally i am not a believer in the gifts still being valid, so none of it sits well with me.
Go on Facebook and people assume titles (Prophet, seer, bishop, etc.) and advertise it like candy. I know one man who claims to be a "Master" in Christianity.

He claims Jesus was a master and now he is too. Which he claims means he will soon fly and perform miracles. I am always amazed at people who buy into this nonsense.


You cannot be a true Christians and not believe in the gifts of the spirit.

[h=3]1 Corinthians 12 (NIV)
[/h]
[h=3]Concerning Spiritual Gifts[/h]12 Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed (Do not be unaware of these gifts). [SUP]2 [/SUP]You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols. [SUP]3 [/SUP]Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them. [SUP]5 [/SUP]There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. [SUP]6 [/SUP]There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. [SUP]8 [/SUP]To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, [SUP]9 [/SUP]to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, [SUP]10 [/SUP]to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. [SUP]11 [/SUP]All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

[h=3]Unity and Diversity in the Body[/h][SUP]12 [/SUP]Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ. [SUP]13 [/SUP]For we were all baptized by one Spirit so as to form one body—whether Jews or Gentiles, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink. [SUP]14 [/SUP]Even so the body is not made up of one part but of many.

[SUP]15 [/SUP]Now if the foot should say, “Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. [SUP]16 [/SUP]And if the ear should say, “Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body,” it would not for that reason stop being part of the body. [SUP]17 [/SUP]If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? [SUP]18 [/SUP]But in fact God has placed the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. [SUP]19 [/SUP]If they were all one part, where would the body be? [SUP]20 [/SUP]As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

[SUP]21 [/SUP]The eye cannot say to the hand, “I don’t need you!” And the head cannot say to the feet, “I don’t need you!”[SUP]22 [/SUP]On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable, [SUP]23 [/SUP]and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty, [SUP]24 [/SUP]while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has put the body together, giving greater honor to the parts that lacked it, [SUP]25 [/SUP]so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. [SUP]26 [/SUP]If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. [SUP]28 [/SUP]And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues. [SUP]29 [/SUP]Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? [SUP]30 [/SUP]Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret? [SUP]31 [/SUP]Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

[h=3]Love Is Indispensable
[/h]And yet I will show you the most excellent way.


Everyone can access these gifts, but with each person there is always a gift that is more dominant in their life than all the others. That gift is what goes with the title that GOD has given you.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#7
Exactly! I do not see the correlation between the word "Shelahim" and "Selah". I looked up "Selah" and saw that it meant pause or stop; something of the sort and "Shelahim", as said in my post, means the ones who are sent.
Shalach - shin lamed chet. Selah - samekh lamed he. No relationship at all. I found several references to "shalach nabi", or "sent a prophet". Perhaps this is the early church's connection between wandering apostles and wandering prophets? do you know of any case of it being used as noun, however, as your reference does? Also, what about shalachah, shalachot, would there be female ones?
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,215
2,551
113
#8
A Prophet is someone who has certain characteristics, you can tell a false Prophet from a real one by knowing these characteristics. However the smart deceivers know these characteristics and will act them out very well, so this is why it takes great discernment in what they preach and teach.

But really a prophet is humble very humble and even then this is not enough, they must be as the virgin mary was-willing. They also are set into a spiritual battle once accepted such a title( that is if it was truly from God) They may hear voices that will try to mimic God's voice and can be very deceiving, visions and dreams can even be messed with to trick them.

Many People can claim to be a prophet and sadly many do even though most who claim it are not, I only use the title I use as a seeker of God's heart because that has been the way of my faith ever since I started. Some people say I am to be a powerful prophet, and while I cannot imagine that being so in the end it doesn't really matter to me because in the end regardless of who I am to be in christ there is but one thing I seek above all else- God himself.
 
P

paulguyer

Guest
#9
Dont be suprised when they do.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#10
Shalach - shin lamed chet. Selah - samekh lamed he. No relationship at all. I found several references to "shalach nabi", or "sent a prophet". Perhaps this is the early church's connection between wandering apostles and wandering prophets? do you know of any case of it being used as noun, however, as your reference does? Also, what about shalachah, shalachot, would there be female ones?
I did some more research. Jastrow's Talmudic dictionary does not use the word as a noun, either. It is however, the usual translation of apostles (shelachim) in the Hebrew NT.
 
D

danschance

Guest
#11
A Prophet is someone who has certain characteristics, you can tell a false Prophet from a real one by knowing these characteristics. However the smart deceivers know these characteristics and will act them out very well, so this is why it takes great discernment in what they preach and teach.

But really a prophet is humble very humble and even then this is not enough, they must be as the virgin mary was-willing. They also are set into a spiritual battle once accepted such a title( that is if it was truly from God) They may hear voices that will try to mimic God's voice and can be very deceiving, visions and dreams can even be messed with to trick them.

Many People can claim to be a prophet and sadly many do even though most who claim it are not, I only use the title I use as a seeker of God's heart because that has been the way of my faith ever since I started. Some people say I am to be a powerful prophet, and while I cannot imagine that being so in the end it doesn't really matter to me because in the end regardless of who I am to be in christ there is but one thing I seek above all else- God himself.

Where did you get this?

"But really a prophet is humble very humble ..."

I have heard this before being applied to the patriarchs and the disciples. I just don't see it.

Peter was willing to defend Jesus with a sword and cut a soldiers ear off. Courageous, stupid, quick to anger and defiant.

James and John asked to be seated next to Christ in Heaven. (Mark 10:35-41) Not humble at all!

Peter denied Christ three times.

James and John were called "Sons of thunder" by Jesus. No doubt because they were loud at times.

All the disciples of Christ went into hiding behind a locked door after Christs death.

King David became a "peeping tom", adultrer and murder.

If I spent more time on this, I could make a lengthy list. The bible says we have ALL gone astray and none of us are righteous. God does not use extraordinary people to extraordinary things. He used fishermen and a tax gatherer to found His church.

God uses the ordinary to do extraordinary things.
 
D

DragonSlayer

Guest
#12
Lots of people give themselves titles from the gifts listed in the bible. The most popular seems to be 'prophet'. Lots of people run around proclaiming they're prophets. Personally i am not a believer in the gifts still being valid, so none of it sits well with me.
Those self-proclaimed false prophets are disgusting to the highest degree ! They are wolves in sheep clothing and comes only to steal, kill and destroy. They will be recognized by their fruits.

Now about the gifts still being valid, it's a big debate. I will keep it short though. Well, to the best of my knowledge, Jesus is still alive, and so are miracles. It's just that nowadays we live in a great period of spiritual and intellectual obscurantism.
For centuries, the Scriptures were strongly forbidden to be read and understood by the masses, and millions of martyrs were killed by the Inquisition from the vatican for that matter.

Today, the Scriptures are still strongly forbidden to be read and understood by the masses, but in a much more subtle manner. Only official man made false interpretations of Scriptures are accepted, and all the trespassers who dare to reject those man made false interpretations of Scriptures are stigmatized, ridiculed, and called " legalists ", " fundamentalists ",
" pharisees ", " filled with hatred ", and so on.

So if someone wants to know about the real truth, and not the false one forced by man made false interpretations, he has to disconnect from the worldwide spiritual brainwashing, and read and understand the Scriptures as if it was the first time, like a little child, and be ready to accept the literal Truth just as it is written, and be ready to be mocked and ridiculed by the whole World just like Jesus and all His prophets and disciples were.
Miracles still can happen, but it happens with faith only, and faith begins with a pure understanding of Scriptures without any man made false doctrines, and most people are taught very early to avoid that narrow way like the plague. So it's not surprising Jesus cannot operate miracles from above if there's no faith, no pure and innocent understanding of Scriptures.

Jesus said : " ...Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. "

Mark 16: 15-20 ( KJV )

It's also written :


" And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him.
2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
4 But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
5And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching. "

Mark 6: 1-6 ( KJV )

So if there's no gifts and miracles nowadays, it's not because they would have ceased, it's because of a overwhelming worldwide atmosphere of disbelief in the literal understanding and acceptance of Scriptures.

Without faith, there could be no gifts and no miracles received from above.

It's written : " So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. " Romans 10:17


Truth is simple, people make it complicated.

Shalom
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,215
2,551
113
#13
Where did you get this?

"But really a prophet is humble very humble ..."

I have heard this before being applied to the patriarchs and the disciples. I just don't see it.

Peter was willing to defend Jesus with a sword and cut a soldiers ear off. Courageous, stupid, quick to anger and defiant.

James and John asked to be seated next to Christ in Heaven. (Mark 10:35-41) Not humble at all!

Peter denied Christ three times.

James and John were called "Sons of thunder" by Jesus. No doubt because they were loud at times.

All the disciples of Christ went into hiding behind a locked door after Christs death.

King David became a "peeping tom", adultrer and murder.

If I spent more time on this, I could make a lengthy list. The bible says we have ALL gone astray and none of us are righteous. God does not use extraordinary people to extraordinary things. He used fishermen and a tax gatherer to found His church.

God uses the ordinary to do extraordinary things.
Just because you cannot see it does not mean it isn't true or real, If a prophet were not humble they would go about in a loud voice saying all kinds of things about how they are a great prophet or God has chosen them to speak in his name and would mostly talk about themselves. What is the exact opposite of humble? Prideful, this is why it is so important for a prophet to be humble. If someone goes around saying they are a great prophet you would not believe them right?
 

Noel139

Senior Member
Jul 1, 2013
196
1
18
31
#14
Where did you get this?

"But really a prophet is humble very humble ..."

I have heard this before being applied to the patriarchs and the disciples. I just don't see it.

Peter was willing to defend Jesus with a sword and cut a soldiers ear off. Courageous, stupid, quick to anger and defiant.

James and John asked to be seated next to Christ in Heaven. (Mark 10:35-41) Not humble at all!

Peter denied Christ three times.

James and John were called "Sons of thunder" by Jesus. No doubt because they were loud at times.

All the disciples of Christ went into hiding behind a locked door after Christs death.

King David became a "peeping tom", adultrer and murder.

If I spent more time on this, I could make a lengthy list. The bible says we have ALL gone astray and none of us are righteous. God does not use extraordinary people to extraordinary things. He used fishermen and a tax gatherer to found His church.

God uses the ordinary to do extraordinary things.

Nobody's perfect, dear. Not even the Apostles. We are all called to be humble, but also to be leaders. We were made to be led by GOD and to lead man.
 

Noel139

Senior Member
Jul 1, 2013
196
1
18
31
#15
Those self-proclaimed false prophets are disgusting to the highest degree ! They are wolves in sheep clothing and comes only to steal, kill and destroy. They will be recognized by their fruits.

Now about the gifts still being valid, it's a big debate. I will keep it short though. Well, to the best of my knowledge, Jesus is still alive, and so are miracles. It's just that nowadays we live in a great period of spiritual and intellectual obscurantism.
For centuries, the Scriptures were strongly forbidden to be read and understood by the masses, and millions of martyrs were killed by the Inquisition from the vatican for that matter.

Today, the Scriptures are still strongly forbidden to be read and understood by the masses, but in a much more subtle manner. Only official man made false interpretations of Scriptures are accepted, and all the trespassers who dare to reject those man made false interpretations of Scriptures are stigmatized, ridiculed, and called " legalists ", " fundamentalists ",
" pharisees ", " filled with hatred ", and so on.

So if someone wants to know about the real truth, and not the false one forced by man made false interpretations, he has to disconnect from the worldwide spiritual brainwashing, and read and understand the Scriptures as if it was the first time, like a little child, and be ready to accept the literal Truth just as it is written, and be ready to be mocked and ridiculed by the whole World just like Jesus and all His prophets and disciples were.
Miracles still can happen, but it happens with faith only, and faith begins with a pure understanding of Scriptures without any man made false doctrines, and most people are taught very early to avoid that narrow way like the plague. So it's not surprising Jesus cannot operate miracles from above if there's no faith, no pure and innocent understanding of Scriptures.

Jesus said : " ...Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20 And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen. "

Mark 16: 15-20 ( KJV )

It's also written :


" And he went out from thence, and came into his own country; and his disciples follow him.
2 And when the sabbath day was come, he began to teach in the synagogue: and many hearing him were astonished, saying, From whence hath this man these things? and what wisdom is this which is given unto him, that even such mighty works are wrought by his hands?
3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joses, and of Juda, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended at him.
4 But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
5And he could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands upon a few sick folk, and healed them.
6 And he marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching. "

Mark 6: 1-6 ( KJV )

So if there's no gifts and miracles nowadays, it's not because they would have ceased, it's because of a overwhelming worldwide atmosphere of disbelief in the literal understanding and acceptance of Scriptures.

Without faith, there could be no gifts and no miracles received from above.

It's written : " So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. " Romans 10:17


Truth is simple, people make it complicated.

Shalom
I agree with you, but GOD can do HIS works without such faith, HE just won't. And there are many miracles and works of the spirit happening; such as miraculous survival stories from all these disasters that are happening in this world, the many appearances of Y'shua to the Islamic community in the form of dreams and visions, and many other miraculous miracles that haven't all been reported on an international level. My mom's heart condition was healed instantly and I went to a church where healings happened all the time and were cast out of many people. Just because you haven't heard about them or seen them doesn't mean they haven't happened. You have to go to where the Holy Spirit is the strongest to see it's works on a grand scale. And, most of the time we discount the miracles and acts of the spirit around us so it seems, in our own mind's eye, as if they never happened.
 

Noel139

Senior Member
Jul 1, 2013
196
1
18
31
#16
I have to say that I just started learning Hebrew so I am not very familiar with the words yet. My translation only uses the word "Shelahim" once and that is in the paragraph I wrote to start with.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#17
Do you have an OT reference where shechalim is used? What I'm looking for is an OT or first century proof that the word was used back then. The Hebrew NT uses it as the standard word (Matt. 10:2, Eph. 4:11, I Cor. 12:28 for example), but there is no evidence that there ever was a Hebrew NT before Israel was resettled in 1948 (arguments about Q not withstanding), and modern Hebrew has changed significantly. If a first century reference could be found, it might open new OT verses to explaining the ministry of the apostle. As it stands now, the only reference we have that can be remotely used to demonstrate that apostles do not have to be called personally by Jesus, is Barnabas, but his name means "son of a prophet" and he started as a levite. The study of how an apostle gets called is certainly germane to your OP.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#18
There are no more Apostles.
The church is still blessed by that gift through their teaching and instruction given to us in the NT.
 

maxwel

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2013
9,443
2,520
113
#20
Go on Facebook and people assume titles (Prophet, seer, bishop, etc.) and advertise it like candy. I know one man who claims to be a "Master" in Christianity.

He claims Jesus was a master and now he is too. Which he claims means he will soon fly and perform miracles. I am always amazed at people who buy into this nonsense.

I just never get tired of watching prophets fly.

Or is it witches that fly?

I can never quite remember.

: )