Usury - Abuse of the Low Income Family

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Lanolin

Lanolin

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#21
Dec 15, 2018
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#21
Even with high mileage, Toyotas have been shown to be reliable. I think mine is more than 20 years old, wasn't new when I bought it.

I don't believe in interest rates lol. The prices should be affordable.
Also if its just a 5 mile drive, you could get uber/carpool. The company needs to have a transport plan so its workers can get to work, even if it's just ridesharing or discounts on public transport. Most GOOD companies have this. Otherwise how else do they expect workers to get there. Provide accomodation? Work from home?
 
B

blueluna5

Well-known member
#22
Jul 30, 2018
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#22
Billyd said:
The most popular purchase made with the income tax return of younger taxpayers is down payment an automobile.

My granddaughter and her husband are in that category. They have one child and an income of $600/week. They have a small home that is paid for, and utilities are around $200/month. He works about 5 miles from home. Their car broke down last November, and they depend on other family for transportation. They need a dependable car with low mileage. In shopping around, the best price for what they need is around $20,000. They have $5000 to put down on it, but they have no credit. Lenders will finance $15,000 at 24 to 27%. Interest alone is $300 per month. The normal interest rate for someone with good credit is 4% or about $50 per month.

The reason given was high default rate. I can understand why. Paying $600+ a month for a 5 year old car is ridiculous.

What do you believe is a fair interest rate?
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Their debt to income seems really low. Are they able to get a home equity loan instead? Not sure if you can do that honestly but if they have collateral it will go down.

I don't know what's a normal interest rate anymore honestly. Ours is 4% for the car but we got before inflation. Can't afford another one right now.
 
Lanolin

Lanolin

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#23
Dec 15, 2018
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#23
if the car has at least four seats you dont need another one of you can fit all your family in it.
Ive seen people riding bicycles with 3 people on it.

Why are people not living within their means I dont know. If you are on a low income reality is you have to go without. Or you will forever be playing catchup or working overtime to get the things you are coveting.

You may have a bonus once in a while but people should have figured out by now those incomes are low and fixed to KEEP people poor.

The only way is to have a higher income by training for a higher paid job, and this does not mean bullying your way to the top.

what happens to the 2nd car is that it ends up being another big expense that hardly gets used and rusts away taking up space in the garage. Jesus said if you have two coats give one away to someone who has none.
 
Lanolin

Lanolin

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#24
Dec 15, 2018
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#24
next thing people complain about is their 2nd or 3rd house because the first one is too small.

And they dont mean they sell one and then buy another. They buy two and use the first one to rent out to pay for the second.

I know divorced couples that are only happy if they live apart from each other and even their children have their own place lost in the middle cos they are confused about where they live now.
 
Lynx

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
#25
Aug 13, 2014
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#25
Lanolin said:
if the car has at least four seats you dont need another one of you can fit all your family in it.
Ive seen people riding bicycles with 3 people on it.

Why are people not living within their means I dont know. If you are on a low income reality is you have to go without. Or you will forever be playing catchup or working overtime to get the things you are coveting.

You may have a bonus once in a while but people should have figured out by now those incomes are low and fixed to KEEP people poor.

The only way is to have a higher income by training for a higher paid job, and this does not mean bullying your way to the top.

what happens to the 2nd car is that it ends up being another big expense that hardly gets used and rusts away taking up space in the garage. Jesus said if you have two coats give one away to someone who has none.
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It is apparent you have never tried to raise a family. That second car is necessary, not just convenient.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#26
Jun 30, 2015
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#26
Moses_Young said:
Usury is legalised theft
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Usury: the illegal action or practice of lending money at unreasonably high rates of interest (Oxford Dictionaries)

According to the definition, usury is inherently illegal. Charging interest is not illegal. Don't confuse the two.

If you loan money to someone for one year, and in that year you are otherwise unable to do anything with it, do you think it is appropriate that your brother pays you a small fee for using your money? That's what interest is.

By the way, in the parable of the talents, Jesus mentioned putting money in the bank to earn interest.
 
Moses_Young

Moses_Young

Banned
#27
Sep 15, 2019
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#27
Dino246 said:
Usury: the illegal action or practice of lending money at unreasonably high rates of interest (Oxford Dictionaries)

According to the definition, usury is inherently illegal. Charging interest is not illegal. Don't confuse the two.

If you loan money to someone for one year, and in that year you are otherwise unable to do anything with it, do you think it is appropriate that your brother pays you a small fee for using your money? That's what interest is.

By the way, in the parable of the talents, Jesus mentioned putting money in the bank to earn interest.
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I'm going by biblical definitions. If you want to use the world's definitions, a sex worker is also a legitimate trade and legal. In the bible, it's referred to as prostitution, or harlotry.

Any rate of interest was considered unreasonably high in bible times, if there was no risk to the lender. No different to theft or fraud.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#28
Jun 30, 2015
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#28
Moses_Young said:
I'm going by biblical definitions. If you want to use the world's definitions, a sex worker is also a legitimate trade and legal. In the bible, it's referred to as prostitution, or harlotry.

Any rate of interest was considered unreasonably high in bible times, if there was no risk to the lender. No different to theft or fraud.
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Your example is ridiculous and clearly intended as an insult. Only a few words are “defined” in Scripture, and ‘usury’ is not one of them.

Translators choose words according to their usage in the world, so that their language is readily understood by its readers.

You are simply incorrect on the biblical data on interest. Do your homework.
 
JohnDB

JohnDB

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#29
Jan 16, 2021
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#29
27% interest rate is high.....but so is the price of the car.

If work is only 5 miles away....bicycles rock! It's a 30 minute workout....but that is much much cheaper that a single payment for a car.

Most automotive purchasers experience buyers remorse when the payments for the car are such a significant portion of their monthly income. Because maintenance and repairs are going to immediately be beyond their reach....and used cars are sold and purchased regularly with issues that need attention soon.

So even if they buy this car...they can expect a repair bill in a couple of months. And then they will be in worse shape than what they started in.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#30
Jun 30, 2015
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#30
JohnDB said:
27% interest rate is high.....but so is the price of the car.

If work is only 5 miles away....bicycles rock! It's a 30 minute workout....but that is much much cheaper that a single payment for a car.

Most automotive purchasers experience buyers remorse when the payments for the car are such a significant portion of their monthly income. Because maintenance and repairs are going to immediately be beyond their reach....and used cars are sold and purchased regularly with issues that need attention soon.

So even if they buy this car...they can expect a repair bill in a couple of months. And then they will be in worse shape than what they started in.
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While five miles night be a nice pedal commute in many areas, it isn’t where I live. Temperatures as low as -40, winds well in excess of 40 mph, and ample bugs throughout the summer make bicycle commuting simply impractical for many people. Plus… very few employers offer shower facilities.
 
Moses_Young

Moses_Young

Banned
#31
Sep 15, 2019
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#31
Dino246 said:
Your example is ridiculous and clearly intended as an insult. Only a few words are “defined” in Scripture, and ‘usury’ is not one of them.

Translators choose words according to their usage in the world, so that their language is readily understood by its readers.

You are simply incorrect on the biblical data on interest. Do your homework.
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The truth isn't hard to find for those bothered enough to look. I searched for "what is biblical definition of usury".

This is the first site that came up.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/usury/

Not saying that the first site is always the correct one, but the biblical definition of usury was accepted for hundreds of years AD (until the 16th or 17th centuries) and the conquest of Europe by Jewry. It was only then that usury (i.e. interest) was decriminalized. Usury (or charging of any interest) according to the biblical principles, is no different to theft, or plunder, which is why it was only permitted for Israel's enemies.

"Usury
(The word usury has come in modern English to mean excessive interest upon money loaned, either formally illegal or at least oppressive. In the Scriptures, however the word did not bear this sense, but meant simply interest of any kind upon money. The Jews were forbidden by the law of Moses to take interest from their brethren, but were permitted to take it from foreigners."
 
Dino246

Dino246

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#32
Jun 30, 2015
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#32
Moses_Young said:
The truth isn't hard to find for those bothered enough to look. I searched for "what is biblical definition of usury".

This is the first site that came up.

https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/usury/

Not saying that the first site is always the correct one, but the biblical definition of usury was accepted for hundreds of years AD (until the 16th or 17th centuries) and the conquest of Europe by Jewry. It was only then that usury (i.e. interest) was decriminalized. Usury (or charging of any interest) according to the biblical principles, is no different to theft, or plunder, which is why it was only permitted for Israel's enemies.

"Usury
(The word usury has come in modern English to mean excessive interest upon money loaned, either formally illegal or at least oppressive. In the Scriptures, however the word did not bear this sense, but meant simply interest of any kind upon money. The Jews were forbidden by the law of Moses to take interest from their brethren, but were permitted to take it from foreigners."
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That isn't going to be sufficient. You would have to establish from contemporary extra-biblical usage that 'usury' in English simply meant 'interest' in the 1500's.
 
Billyd

Billyd

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#33
May 8, 2014
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#33
What is an acceptable interest rate?
 
Lanolin

Lanolin

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#34
Dec 15, 2018
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#34
Billyd said:
What is an acceptable interest rate?
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haha nothing
Banks should just give the money and not expect it to be repaid. Thats my kind of bank

Or the bank of mum and dad.
 
Lanolin

Lanolin

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#35
Dec 15, 2018
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#35
Or you could try making your own car from cannabalised spare parts from your nearest scrapheap.

It will be unique! If it can pass the WOF you on the road! But if not you'll have to ride on the footpath. So make it small.

Otherwise, I would take a bus or uber. Rosa Parks was the car-less peoples heroine when the bus drivers wouldnt let her sit down anywhere on the bus
 
Dino246

Dino246

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#36
Jun 30, 2015
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#36
Billyd said:
What is an acceptable interest rate?
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That depends on many factors, and needs to be considered from the perspective of both borrower and lender.

Lenders should charge interest according to their reasonable potential gains with that money by other means (also called 'opportunity cost'). Because many banks are legally authorized to lend several dollars for each dollar they have on deposit, their need for reasonable return on each dollar should be much lower than for an ordinary person. Borrowers should agree to pay interest based firstly on their ability to pay back the loan and, secondarily, their need to purchase this item at this time. It should always be the decision of the borrower whether to accept the terms the lender is offering... or in other words, not to borrow. Once that decision is made, the borrower is responsible to pay, regardless of the terms in the agreement.
 
Dino246

Dino246

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#37
Jun 30, 2015
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#37
Lanolin said:
Or you could try making your own car from cannabalised spare parts from your nearest scrapheap.

It will be unique! If it can pass the WOF you on the road! But if not you'll have to ride on the footpath. So make it small.

Otherwise, I would take a bus or uber. Rosa Parks was the car-less peoples heroine when the bus drivers wouldnt let her sit down anywhere on the bus
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I like your optimism, but it is naive.

Many jurisdictions simply will not licence a car built from spare parts; where I live, parts must be new or sourced from the government wrecker. Many people live in locations not adequately served by public or even commercial transit. Uber would be prohibitive for many people because of their from-to distances.
 
Moses_Young

Moses_Young

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#38
Sep 15, 2019
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#38
Dino246 said:
That isn't going to be sufficient. You would have to establish from contemporary extra-biblical usage that 'usury' in English simply meant 'interest' in the 1500's.
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I don't really know how it can be any clearer. Even good bible dictionaries define usury as interest - the two are the same. Interest is usury, and usury is interest.

Modern society has tried to define many evil works as good, and many good works as evil. Usury is one of them, renaming it "interest" and trying to make out it is different to theft.

From Strong's concordance
neshek: interest, usury
Original Word: נֶשֶׁךְ
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: neshek
Phonetic Spelling: (neh'-shek)
Definition: interest, usury
 
Lynx

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
#39
Aug 13, 2014
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#39
Moses_Young said:
I don't really know how it can be any clearer. Even good bible dictionaries define usury as interest - the two are the same. Interest is usury, and usury is interest.

Modern society has tried to define many evil works as good, and many good works as evil. Usury is one of them, renaming it "interest" and trying to make out it is different to theft.

From Strong's concordance
neshek: interest, usury
Original Word: נֶשֶׁךְ
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: neshek
Phonetic Spelling: (neh'-shek)
Definition: interest, usury
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For a time I was puzzled at your insistence that ALL charging of interest is inherently evil.

Then I remembered that you are a conspiracy theorist, and one of the favorite conspiracy theories is that the modern banking system was founded by those wicked Templar Knights.

So yeah, I can see why it's crucial to believe charging interest is evil.
 
Dino246

Dino246

Senior Member
#40
Jun 30, 2015
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#40
Moses_Young said:
I don't really know how it can be any clearer. Even good bible dictionaries define usury as interest - the two are the same. Interest is usury, and usury is interest.

Modern society has tried to define many evil works as good, and many good works as evil. Usury is one of them, renaming it "interest" and trying to make out it is different to theft.

From Strong's concordance
neshek: interest, usury
Original Word: נֶשֶׁךְ
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: neshek
Phonetic Spelling: (neh'-shek)
Definition: interest, usury
Click to expand...
Strong's is only a dictionary showing how words were used in the KJV. It has no evidentiary value outside of the KJV.
 
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