New here!

Thank you very much for explaining that, especially the part I highlighted in bold.
So, where exactly in the chain are you then because you sound pretty close to me?

When I was reasoning this out myself while looking at other accumulated human knowledge, I realized based on many conclusions that we cannot perceive or understand all the fine-details of existence ourselves so that’s where the part of surrendering and humility comes in since we have to have Faith as many would say.
This is where you say “Your will be done”. It implies trust and surrender.
I’d like to add that I’m a Trinitarian, based on your comments. Not sure if you said those intentionally or un-intentionally, but I am a Trinitarian.
Trinity is probably a destination that’s not yet in your map since you might not be fully convinced on Christianity, but I just wanted to mention that.

In regards to Realism and Reductionism, I agree with what you have written but have you thought about the wild card called Miracles?
Miracles will defy logic and laws of physics. Because Jesus healed the sick, raised the dead and raised Himself from the dead while showing supernatural abilities with His resurrected body after resurrection such as “teleportation” (to use a modern word) and eating bread with His Disciples while showing His wounds.
So Miracles completely break this reasoning (Realism and Reductionism), which is another lesson in humility and again I drop in my knees and say “Your will be done”.

Have you explored Miracles throughout history to get a better appreciation on how they defy all logic and philosophies?

You’re right in pointing out the contradiction. Not just miracles, but fine tuning and the ability to think about our experience (should we assume the brain to be purely material and consciousness a passive observer) - all defy causality to some degree. The purpose of holding the paradigm of reductionism as absolute is that it debunks itself - but also that it is most consistent, it is the thinking that underlies science, and I think of it as the key to the puzzle box, with physical reality as the puzzle and the solution being what remains once reason reasons itself away. Reductionism must naturally hit bedrock.

I’d be curious to know more about the trinity denomination, it’s not on my map, as you said. I can look it up if you prefer but I would offer you the opportunity to give your own words as the internet might distort it.

The chain of logic reaches idealism, but then we may consider different interpretations.

One is that consciousness creates physical reality out of necessity. This one is very close to materialism. In my own words, I would imagine this as a fundamental state like a chaotic dream, thoughts may manifest as vague ephemeral things, and physical reality is a mnemonic device, a way for the consciousness to fix itself to an idea, give it rules and structure.

This is similar to materialism as the structure would gradually evolve through trial and error, and the intelligence of the consciousness would be dependent on the mnemonic device, the mental structures. Once these mental structures break down, the consciousness would revert to the chaotic state. It speaks of an unintelligent dreamer climbing its way to sensibility. And it would attribute fine-tuning to mindless trial and error. It is a way for the improbable supposition of evolution of life to reassert itself beyond the limits of our universe.

Another interpretation is coined Analytical Idealism. It explores the idea that physical reality is a direct representation of the underlying mental reality. Fine tuning is a result of the internal architecture.

The flaws in these interpretations, and their merits, should prove useful in reasoning to God. That’s where I am in the chain.

Welcome, Lizzrsmith!

I see, so you’re torn between are we making our reality as shown in the double slit experiment or is reality real without us observing it.
This is The eternal question since ancient philosophers. The modern version is “If a tree falls in the woods, does anybody hear it”?

This again, should lead you to Faith. Since no-one will have an answer based on proof or evidence for this question or other existential questions. No one for as long as humanity exists. This is also a scientific fact due to rapid expansion of the universe which will leave us isolated and in the dark unable to explore 95% of the universe and unable to even scratch the surface.

The Bible says a lot about Faith. Many passages, all beautiful.
But in this case, when I was going through it myself this verse stuck for me: “We walk by faith, not sight”.
This means surrender and trust to the Most High, because He is in control. We got separated since The Garden and we will be united with Him again when we have to face Him.
But for now, all that's required is Faith. This is also personal for each person. Faith gives me peace, purpose and joy. So that’s why i was seeking. Some others don’t want this because of their limited free-will choice. But for me, it was existential to know who my Creator is and how I got here.

The Trinity, also requires Faith. In the Bible, the best evidence for Trinity was when Jesus was baptized.
A voice was heard from the sky saying “This is my Son with whom I am pleased” and the Holy Spirit descended in the shape of a dove from Heavens.
The best I’ve come to understand Trinity from a human point of view, limited in flesh and blood, is the concept of dimensions.

This short 5 minute video is worth watching. It explains the concept visually on how a higher being might appear in our dimension.
This is also mentioned in the Bible in terms of “tiers” of the firmaments as well as our natural understanding of Dark Energy and the fact that we can’t perceive all reality in this state of flesh and blood.



I think you should take a look at the New Testament, and read more about the life of Christ.
I’d recommend the gospel of Luke to you.
Here’s a link here: https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke 1&version=NIV

This is the personal God I was looking for in my journey. I hope you get to appreciate it too in relation to all your other ideas that you hold.

@Lizzrsmith Also if you're a visual person, like me, there's also a very nice series about Jesus called "The Chosen" which you might find enjoyable.
You can watch them all for free on many platforms, apps, apple tv, google tv or here: https://watch.thechosen.tv/page/seasons 1-3

Looking forward to your perceptions. Glad to have you onboard with us. Welcome to CC.

I understand the consensus that faith is required to move forward. It’s one that I’m challenging. I want to see how idealism might reconcile with Christianity philosophy.

You’ve misunderstood, the dilemma of the tree falling in the forest is perhaps relevant to some interpretations of idealism vs materialism, but I am trying to move methodically through ideas and any supposition on that matter is many steps removed.

I am here to gain a Christian perspective on philosophical ideas. I’m not against watching videos and learning more about a faith based approach, but I don’t feel as if I’ve yet found the engagement I’m looking for, so I’m hesitant to invest more of my time.

I don’t mean this as a slight, I know what I’m asking for is a lot, these conversations can be difficult, and this community is more dedicated towards other matters which I don’t disparage. I would expect that most people who approach the forum with this sort of methodical philosophy are atheists trying to pick apart religion, and some of the common defenses have been brought up. Which is entirely understandable! I’ve witnessed arguments between atheists and Christians online and been frustrated by both, but always rooting for the Christians, because atheism is the most hypocritical position imaginable (I am rational, now let me rationalize the myself out of existence).

I believe I’ve lost you, but in an attempt to bring you back:

The two idealistic frameworks I presented, where physicality is a necessary mental structure or a direct mental construct - are not conclusions, they are just examples. I was hoping for a Christian perspective on idealism.

Since you’ve said you prefer visuals, I’ll work with that.

The idealism where physical reality is a chaotic dream. The dreams are ephemeral, formless, near to thoughts of nothingness. Then somehow, with some spark of intuition, the dreamer thinks of light, of substance, and sets these upon each other (much as a card counter would assign visuals of each card - an elephant, a fridge - then stack them atop each other in their mind to create something easily memorable and sequenced). The dreamer must then abide by these visualizations - once they have decided fire is hot they cannot change their mind - much as the card counter cannot remove the elephant without forgetting the fridge.
The merit is that this explains causality well in a mental world. The flaw is that is does nothing to explain the intuition of creating those first visuals.

For analytical idealism, you can imagine a very complex mind. It has many inner workings, an architecture of sorts. It has points of great activity, stars, where it designs the most rigid and enduring concepts, matter, and keeps these processes far removed, but ever aware of each other, gravity. It even constructs disassociated personas from the rigid concepts (life).
The merits of this concept is that it is simple, the physical and spiritual are one and the same, with the material representing the spiritual 1:1. It’s also appealing in that the network of the cosmos appears very similar to the network of the mind. The issue is that it does not explain fine tuning, or miracles, and it does not try to explain how the structure came to be - or why it is represented physically.

I feel like Christianity might hold insights, but I can’t presume. There are enough new age philosophers bastardizing the tradition for their interpretation. I’m okay with not getting to the bottom of everything, I’m not writing a book to sell, but I’m compelled to try because this sort of thinking has always been an obsession of mine.

Bernardo Kastrup is the one who argued the logic of idealism to atheists and he was a breath of fresh air, in that he didn’t presume more than necessary but explained what was obvious. He seemed to put my thoughts into words. Then he wrote a book and presented a “complete” worldview, coined analytical idealism, and became a political activist on Twitter.
The world needs more rigorous philosophers! And I think that would help Christians as well. Theres no reason atheism and materialism should be taught as a default, when few great thinkers (arguably any) would consider it. And it’s all the more important with AI - they will immediately present materialism as a default but a few decent arguments will get them admitting it’s unfeasible. So it’s important to make sure the AI are trained well, and to encourage philosophy in a time when AI is available to cultivate the basics.

Hope you enjoy your stay here and make such a great decision. Stay safe!

2 Corinthians 5:6-7; Romans 14:8b
Thank you for the inspiration, Eli. I hope you and yours are well .

@Lizzrsmith please give me some time to respond to your latest post and format it properly too.

About Faith and Idealism

But isn’t Faith another path just like Idealism too? With the added factor of Miracles as well!?
I’m also glad that you already recognize certain things about Christianity such as calling it a philosophy, which is sometimes accurate, and that also you recognize that some who are pretending to be Christians are actually atheists who like to pick apart religion.
Atheists who became atheist maybe due to some Christians treating Christianity as a philosophy.
But I don’t know if you’ve factored-in different denominations of Christianity too. I’m mentioning this in relation to your comment. Maybe you are an ex-Christian, or I don’t know, but we can deal with things one at a time as they are revealed in the conversation.

Christianity at its core is not a philosophy, despite some groups treating it as such, but it’s a following of Christ who is God incarnate to relate to us here on our level and teach us how to live this life while we are separated from The Father.
So Christianity is not a philosophy but a following.
I follow Christ, in Faith.
My life belongs to Christ and I’m in gratitude for all the blessings and even sorrows that come my way.
I don’t want to say any more than I have to on this topic since I don’t want to branch off into other topics.

I’m also glad to see your comment on atheists who like to rationalize themselves out of existence while failing to do that.
That made me laugh. I know exactly what you mean.

I know that you are looking for a bridge, and that bridge is Faith, because I see that you already recognize that new age philosophers bastartize traditions and you are okay with not knowing everything.
That looks like faith to me and sometimes we like to use other synonyms to avoid calling something for what it is.

I am also glad to see that you don’t see “Ai” as an “intelligence” but a program that we humans tweak.
It’s the marketing folks who called it “AI”.
I highly value this insight so thank you!

I am a fan of balance, so right now there is indeed a imbalance on how new generations are trained in schools and I realize that you are looking for the new William Lane Craig so materialism and atheism are not taught by default. They should at minimum make philosophy a requirement in schools just like they do evolution but the point I’m trying to make is Balance.
Eventually this imbalance will correct itself. That’s how it always goes in history, which is why Faith always remains personal. Cannot be legislated, controlled, dictated or anything along those lines.
Faith has to be natural, which is why God gave us (limited) free-will. So if God respects this, who am I to judge someone’s fate who doesn’t want to believe? It’s just not something that I do.

So if you’re trying to reconcile Idealism with Christianity, I am not sure what you’re going to gain. Maybe you can tell me that? With Faith you also gain the Miracle factor like I said but based on what you’ve said so far, you seem very close to Faith, unless I’m misunderstanding some concepts or if you have more to say.

Thank you for the discussion.

I had a bit of a revelation overnight, a culmination of beliefs, dreams, and trying to articulate ideas, things clicked in an unexpected way. I feel like I’ve found guidance, which isn’t what I expected when I was seeking out this forum. I appreciate the journey this has been, and it was unexpected because it was little things, the quotes posted from the Bible and having to consider the ideas on idealism in a more organized way, accounting for fine-tuning and miracles, that gave insight, rather than the methodical approach to philosophy I was advocating, which now seems besides the point.

I hesitate to add more, because it’s a personal journey and the details don’t align to any doctrine, that I know of at least. Not opposed to Christianity, but not fitted perfectly either. These are very interesting times

Thank you for talking to me, I’m really happy with how this went. I’ll check back in to be personable, but I think for now what was meant to happen has happened. I really appreciate it!

The truth is you can have a personal relationship with God. That's what it's all about. Religion doesn't work. I pray that you will accept Jesus into your heart