Outlier says Hello

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outlier

Junior Member
Mar 6, 2018
18
2
0
#1
I have faith issues. For one I have seen evidence that suggests that people believing false things can some times do them good.

For instance depressed people may with reason blame themselves for their problems. But for not depressed people not so much. This actually results in them being able to cope.

Also often placebos really work.

I have heard that the belief in God and the feeling that engenders are maybe things the brain uses to improve health.

There is much more. Can Christians face those ideas unflinchingly? And refute them LOGICALLY?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
23,391
1,335
113
#2
It is true that atheists/agnostics etc believing there is no God protects them for a time from the reality that God exists, and that there are consequences for refusing to accept that fact. Logic rarely plays a part in their adamant insistence that the universe could have always existed, while they deny at the same time that God could be eternally self-existent.



 

Ugly

Senior Member
Apr 19, 2011
20,523
519
113
#3
Refute what exactly? You didn't say a single thing i haven't known for many years as a Christian. I don't see that any of it negates a belief in God. Your argument is that because something can sometimes have a certain effect that it is somehow evidence that faith is nothing more than mental? Such faulty logic it would be laughable if you weren't actually serious. It is entirely feasible that both the mind can have positive effects, and that God exists. Your conclusion doesn't disprove God, or even cause enough to pose a question. If you're so easily swayed by such silly, illogical propositions it's no wonder you have 'faith issues'. A fly could fart in Japan and sway your faith.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
23,391
1,335
113
#4
Refute what exactly? You didn't say a single thing i haven't known for many years as a Christian. I don't see that any of it negates a belief in God. Your argument is that because something can sometimes have a certain effect that it is somehow evidence that faith is nothing more than mental? Such faulty logic it would be laughable if you weren't actually serious. It is entirely feasible that both the mind can have positive effects, and that God exists. Your conclusion doesn't disprove God, or even cause enough to pose a question. If you're so easily swayed by such silly, illogical propositions it's no wonder you have 'faith issues'. A fly could fart in Japan and sway your faith.
A funny thing about atheists/agnostics in general is that they believe they are smarter/more intelligent, more logical, more rational, etc, than anyone who believes in God, Whom they call an imaginary friend, a fairy tale based on ancient writings of knuckle dragging, goat herding, cave dwellers. They will claim there is no evidence for the existence of God, when in actual fact what they do is confuse the fact that they reject the evidence in favor of their sense of superiority, also known as pride, which was the prime mover in the fall of man, and all of creation, and stands to this day as a main reason why God does not reveal Himself to them in the way they like to demand He does to prove Himself. (God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble :))

After talking to various atheists and agnostics for many years I learned a lot about their mindset. For instance, one person whom I had thought to be rather cool, collected, and fairly logical, asserted that no believer could reasonably come to the conclusion that God existed unless they had examined ALL the evidence against such a proposition first, while ignoring the fact the HE had not examined ALL the evidence in favor of accepting that God exists before coming to the conclusion of his stated preference for believing/asserting that God does not exist.

Their pretense at being more logical fails often, yet many would scarcely admit it.

Some would argue as the OP has, that there being an emotional aspect to belief casts the validity of belief itself into doubt. Yet, they would be arguing at the same time for evolution, which would suggest that we have developed emotions for a good reason that has not been eradicated over time due to some fault inherent in the operation of such. Some would even go so far as to say things like, emotions are just chemical reactions that happen in your brain. LOL. Anyone could say the same thing in regards to thoughts, but they still listen to their thoughts of there being no evidence for the existence of God. The depth and extent of their depravity became quite apparent over time. Romans one comes to mind.

They wished to elevate their lack of experience above that
of people who had experience. That in itself is irrational.
 

slave

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2015
5,962
604
113
#5
I have faith issues. For one I have seen evidence that suggests that people believing false things can some times do them good.

For instance depressed people may with reason blame themselves for their problems. But for not depressed people not so much. This actually results in them being able to cope.

Also often placebos really work.

I have heard that the belief in God and the feeling that engenders are maybe things the brain uses to improve health.

There is much more. Can Christians face those ideas unflinchingly? And refute them LOGICALLY?
False things are lies, despite angling for gain in them.. Thus, not only will a lie work in the area described in blinding people successfully - diametrically opposing the truth of God, but the authority of reality and truth - namely God Himself, has created us to be in tune with Him and His Spiritual truths if we submit to His authority, as we allow Him to be our Father. But Science has nothing to do with it, nor logic - for logic is not my God, and has no authority..And the authority of God is all things real!

You suggest and preach a lie in the point you make - that things done outside of Christ can have power and truth, thus, should we not accept them? Even gain from them?. But to be sure, the truth found here is a matter of Spiritual Warfare.

He is the author of (all) truth and reality. We must receive His wisdom accordingly.. And anything preached differently will be that persons downfall; for there are only two Masters we can serve - One leads to death, and the other leads to Eternal Life.. Let He who has ears and eyes to hear and see be enlightened by God Himself and no one else, otherwise what seems real will fall apart in the fire of judgement. - The only authority to prick and prep, and prepare, and purpose, and participate with therein, and produce based upon - is Himself thru Jesus Christ via the Holy Spirit. His Spiritual inclusion speaking to us first. Anything short of Him, and in all ways Him, is nothing more than fools gold!:

Proverbs 19:5 ESV : A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who breathes out lies will not escape.

Guard your heart and tongue, for what you preach He will hold you accountable to. What seems real to a fool is nothing more than a lie. And he who preaches it, is a false witness.

Let go of every thought and place it in Christ and He will renew your mind. But this first must be your heart that changes. For to doubt God is to be without power in Him. Again, I pray you let go ... and let Him! I don't see you having faith issues, I see you having surrender issues. You seem very capable of faith in the points you have made. You just need to change your points. God will do that for you!
 
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outlier

Junior Member
Mar 6, 2018
18
2
0
#6
Refute what exactly? You didn't say a single thing i haven't known for many years as a Christian. I don't see that any of it negates a belief in God. Your argument is that because something can sometimes have a certain effect that it is somehow evidence that faith is nothing more than mental? Such faulty logic it would be laughable if you weren't actually serious. It is entirely feasible that both the mind can have positive effects, and that God exists. Your conclusion doesn't disprove God, or even cause enough to pose a question. If you're so easily swayed by such silly, illogical propositions it's no wonder you have 'faith issues'. A fly could fart in Japan and sway your faith.

Isn't it interesting how you a Christian defend the faith in such an unchristian manner. I wonder what Jesus thinks of this testament to Him of yours?
 

outlier

Junior Member
Mar 6, 2018
18
2
0
#7
False things are lies, despite angling for gain in them.. Thus, not only will a lie work in the area described in blinding people successfully - diametrically opposing the truth of God, but the authority of reality and truth - namely God Himself, has created us to be in tune with Him and His Spiritual truths if we submit to His authority, as we allow Him to be our Father. But Science has nothing to do with it, nor logic - for logic is not my God, and has no authority..And the authority of God is all things real!

You suggest and preach a lie in the point you make - that things done outside of Christ can have power and truth, thus, should we not accept them? Even gain from them?. But to be sure, the truth found here is a matter of Spiritual Warfare.

He is the author of (all) truth and reality. We must receive His wisdom accordingly.. And anything preached differently will be that persons downfall; for there are only two Masters we can serve - One leads to death, and the other leads to Eternal Life.. Let He who has ears and eyes to hear and see be enlightened by God Himself and no one else, otherwise what seems real will fall apart in the fire of judgement. - The only authority to prick and prep, and prepare, and purpose, and participate with therein, and produce based upon - is Himself thru Jesus Christ via the Holy Spirit. His Spiritual inclusion speaking to us first. Anything short of Him, and in all ways Him, is nothing more than fools gold!:

Proverbs 19:5 ESV : A false witness will not go unpunished, and he who breathes out lies will not escape.

Guard your heart and tongue, for what you preach He will hold you accountable to. What seems real to a fool is nothing more than a lie. And he who preaches it, is a false witness.

Let go of every thought and place it in Christ and He will renew your mind. But this first must be your heart that changes. For to doubt God is to be without power in Him. Again, I pray you let go ... and let Him! I don't see you having faith issues, I see you having surrender issues. You seem very capable of faith in the points you have made. You just need to change your points. God will do that for you!
If you are right, I ask God to take this curse of free will from me. Let me be an automaton who can neither do nor think
what could possibly cost him his soul. This "freedom" cannot possibly be worth a minute unsaved iin the world to come.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
22,508
1,137
113
63
#8
A lot of us have faith issues, myself included, so please know that you're not alone in this. A lot of ideas are refuted logically each day. There are a few depression threads that may be of some help too and feel free to create your own thread on any topic that you chose in a forum that you feel is appropriate. Faith is hope in evidence that is unseen. Hopefully, you will find comfort, support and understanding from the members of this site and your faith in the spiritual matters of God and how it affects us will be strengthen. Glad to have you as part of our community. Welcome to CC.
 

slave

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2015
5,962
604
113
#9
If you are right, I ask God to take this curse of free will from me. Let me be an automaton who can neither do nor think
what could possibly cost him his soul. This "freedom" cannot possibly be worth a minute unsaved iin the world to come.
There is a huge difference between losing the right to ourself and being fully dependent on Him, and losing our will. God employs our will and character all the more, not less, for He is out to transform it not inform it!. This is where His empowerment exists thru the Holy Spirit dispensing His wisdom and will on us.. for this is His will - back to the authority issue - right?! God will not take your free will from you - ever! The picture you paint and the hope that you desire is a false one from its premise.

"This is the will of God, your sanctification…" - (1 Thess. 4:3).

Sanctification is not a question of whether God is willing to sanctify me - is it my will? Am I willing to let God do in me everything that has been made possible through the atonement of the Cross of Christ? Am I willing to let Jesus become sanctification to me, and to let His life be exhibited in my human flesh? (see 1 Cor. 1:30). Beware of saying, “Oh, I am longing to be sanctified.” No, you are not. Recognize your need, but stop longing and make it a matter of action. Receive Jesus Christ to become sanctification for you by absolute, unquestioning faith, and the great miracle of the atonement of Jesus will become real in you.


All that Jesus made possible becomes mine through the free and loving gift of God on the basis of what Christ accomplished on the cross. And my attitude as a saved and sanctified soul is that of profound, humble holiness (there is no such thing as proud holiness). It is a holiness based on agonizing repentance, a sense of inexpressible shame and degradation, and also on the amazing realization that the love of God demonstrated itself to me while I cared nothing about Him (see Rom. 5:8). He completed everything for my salvation and sanctification. No wonder Paul said that nothing “shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom 8:39).

Sanctification makes me one with Jesus Christ, and in Him one with God, and it is accomplished only through the magnificent atonement of Christ. Never confuse the effect with the cause. The effect in me is obedience, service, and prayer, and is the outcome of inexpressible thanks and adoration for the miraculous sanctification that has been brought about in me because of the atonement through the Cross of Christ.




 
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joefizz

Senior Member
Apr 23, 2017
13,460
356
83
25
#10
I have faith issues. For one I have seen evidence that suggests that people believing false things can some times do them good.

For instance depressed people may with reason blame themselves for their problems. But for not depressed people not so much. This actually results in them being able to cope.

Also often placebos really work.

I have heard that the belief in God and the feeling that engenders are maybe things the brain uses to improve health.

There is much more. Can Christians face those ideas unflinchingly? And refute them LOGICALLY?
Welcome here you can discuss with bible smart people and possibly make new friends,hope you like it here!
And don't get the impression that Ugly is "unchristian",he's just very blunt and honest,typically if someone says something foolish or a bad idea he tries to save them from such embarrassment in continueing on with said idea or banter.
 

Ugly

Senior Member
Apr 19, 2011
20,523
519
113
#11
Isn't it interesting how you a Christian defend the faith in such an unchristian manner. I wonder what Jesus thinks of this testament to Him of yours?
If practical and honest is a sin then I'm a sinner. Don't try to shift the focus from your failed attempt to cause problems because it was so easy to refute in an attempt to discredit me. Your argument was weak. I shattered it. You're mad and trying to make me look bad. I'm guilt free though.
 

outlier

Junior Member
Mar 6, 2018
18
2
0
#12
There is a huge difference between losing the right to ourself and being fully dependent on Him, and losing our will. God employs our will and character all the more, not less, for He is out to transform it not inform it!. This is where His empowerment exists thru the Holy Spirit dispensing His wisdom and will on us.. for this is His will - back to the authority issue - right?! God will not take your free will from you - ever! The picture you paint and the hope that you desire is a false one from its premise.

"This is the will of God, your sanctification…" - (1 Thess. 4:3).

Sanctification is not a question of whether God is willing to sanctify me - is it my will? Am I willing to let God do in me everything that has been made possible through the atonement of the Cross of Christ? Am I willing to let Jesus become sanctification to me, and to let His life be exhibited in my human flesh? (see 1 Cor. 1:30). Beware of saying, “Oh, I am longing to be sanctified.” No, you are not. Recognize your need, but stop longing and make it a matter of action. Receive Jesus Christ to become sanctification for you by absolute, unquestioning faith, and the great miracle of the atonement of Jesus will become real in you.


All that Jesus made possible becomes mine through the free and loving gift of God on the basis of what Christ accomplished on the cross. And my attitude as a saved and sanctified soul is that of profound, humble holiness (there is no such thing as proud holiness). It is a holiness based on agonizing repentance, a sense of inexpressible shame and degradation, and also on the amazing realization that the love of God demonstrated itself to me while I cared nothing about Him (see Rom. 5:8). He completed everything for my salvation and sanctification. No wonder Paul said that nothing “shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Rom 8:39).

Sanctification makes me one with Jesus Christ, and in Him one with God, and it is accomplished only through the magnificent atonement of Christ. Never confuse the effect with the cause. The effect in me is obedience, service, and prayer, and is the outcome of inexpressible thanks and adoration for the miraculous sanctification that has been brought about in me because of the atonement through the Cross of Christ.




It just doesn't work. Maybe I could kid you all. Maybe you all could kid each other. Maybe you all could kid me. But I can't kid myself, or God. God is going to do what he's going to do whatever it may be to me. But I can't give him my consent to just anything. I can't tell him he can, as I say, "drop the hammer" on me and believe he doesn't know I only saying it so he won't drop the hammer.
 

outlier

Junior Member
Mar 6, 2018
18
2
0
#13
If practical and honest is a sin then I'm a sinner. Don't try to shift the focus from your failed attempt to cause problems because it was so easy to refute in an attempt to discredit me. Your argument was weak. I shattered it. You're mad and trying to make me look bad. I'm guilt free though.

How long have you known you are full of beans? As you know you are not practical and honest, so don't try to kid me. You are all guilt.
 

slave

Senior Member
Mar 20, 2015
5,962
604
113
#14
It just doesn't work. Maybe I could kid you all. Maybe you all could kid each other. Maybe you all could kid me. But I can't kid myself, or God. God is going to do what he's going to do whatever it may be to me. But I can't give him my consent to just anything. I can't tell him he can, as I say, "drop the hammer" on me and believe he doesn't know I only saying it so he won't drop the hammer.
I believe there are stories in there about your life I have not been given opportunity to learn about yet. I invite you to talk to me privately as well, I would love to discuss His Word with you and to simply listen about your life . Visit me anytime.

The miracle is "It does work!" The realness of that miracle is that it also works in my life currently. God does not want us to be pretentious, He came to give us His victory which is beyond ourselves, yet in ourselves. A miracle!

The Word is no joke - Hebrews tells us in Hebrews 4:12 that the Bible is "Alive and Active - powerfully discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart." If you would let God in He will take your blindness and lift the vail and show you Himself. This will take your faith, and surrender. Until then, you will not see His face. The choice to choose Him is yours ... your beginnings, and end are however His authority. I would listen to Him, for He offers you life and that more abundantly. But, indeed, there is a consequence for denying Him.
 
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Ugly

Senior Member
Apr 19, 2011
20,523
519
113
#15
How long have you known you are full of beans? As you know you are not practical and honest, so don't try to kid me. You are all guilt.
Don't project your issues onto me. Man up and own your problems. And accept your weak argument got shut down fast and easy. But since your little snowflake self probably isn't capable I see no point on wasting time on you. Not throwing pearls before swine and all that. Have fun trolling others though.
 
Feb 10, 2018
41
0
0
#16
If practical and honest is a sin then I'm a sinner. Don't try to shift the focus from your failed attempt to cause problems because it was so easy to refute in an attempt to discredit me. Your argument was weak. I shattered it. You're mad and trying to make me look bad. I'm guilt free though.
Ugly listen to what the guy just said.
He’s saying that the way you addressed him is not loving or humble. There’s a time and a place to reprove and rebuke, that wasn’t the time. If you care about this mans soul and where he ends up when he dies more than winning an argument humble yourself and apologize.
 

kaylagrl

Senior Member
Oct 18, 2014
12,205
336
83
#17
​Hummm Im seeing the issue now....
 

outlier

Junior Member
Mar 6, 2018
18
2
0
#18
Don't project your issues onto me. Man up and own your problems. And accept your weak argument got shut down fast and easy. But since your little snowflake self probably isn't capable I see no point on wasting time on you. Not throwing pearls before swine and all that. Have fun trolling others though.

You know that is the typical dodge of people like you, declare victory, take up your toys, and go home. And whoever said swine could throw pearls anyhow?
 

outlier

Junior Member
Mar 6, 2018
18
2
0
#19
Ugly listen to what the guy just said.
He’s saying that the way you addressed him is not loving or humble. There’s a time and a place to reprove and rebuke, that wasn’t the time. If you care about this mans soul and where he ends up when he dies more than winning an argument humble yourself and apologize.

Thank you, if I am indeed wrong your advice nails it, if I'm right it is still darned close.
 

outlier

Junior Member
Mar 6, 2018
18
2
0
#20
I believe there are stories in there about your life I have not been given opportunity to learn about yet. I invite you to talk to me privately as well, I would love to discuss His Word with you and to simply listen about your life . Visit me anytime.

The miracle is "It does work!" The realness of that miracle is that it also works in my life currently. God does not want us to be pretentious, He came to give us His victory which is beyond ourselves, yet in ourselves. A miracle!

The Word is no joke - Hebrews tells us in Hebrews 4:12 that the Bible is "Alive and Active - powerfully discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart." If you would let God in He will take your blindness and lift the vail and show you Himself. This will take your faith, and surrender. Until then, you will not see His face. The choice to choose Him is yours ... your beginnings, and end are however His authority. I would listen to Him, for He offers you life and that more abundantly. But, indeed, there is a consequence for denying Him.
You have no idea how hard it is for me to type, etc. or I might take you up on that. I have to dumb down what I write like I had to dumb down my answers in college exams or I never would get through it.