Falling away from the Faith (it's possible)

Amen! Judas was not a believer, but was an unbelieving, unclean devil who would betray Jesus (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11).

Notice in John 17:12 - While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Jesus did not lose Judas. Judas was already lost.

Syllogism

1. All given by the Father to Christ are kept.
2. Judas was not kept.
3. Judas was not given to Christ by the Father

Or, this way.

1. None of those given to Christ by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
2. Judas is lost.
3. Judas was not given to Christ by the Father.

Your interpretation of the meaning of "vain" is incorrect.
- Vain means:
producing no result; useless.

To attempt something in "vain", does not mean you didn't attempt it. You attempted it but failed.

Therefore to believe in vain, does not mean you didn't believe. You just failed. And what was the failure spoken of in the previous sentence/verse? ---- if you hold fast that word which I preached to you, then you haven't believed in vain, if you haven't held fast that word which I preached to you then you have believed in vain.


So in summary: If you haven't held fast to the word, then you have believed to no result/no effect.

Faith without works is dead.

So stop twisting scriptures and meanings of words.

Romans 2 is written to the Church, not unbelievers:


Romans 2New King James Version (NKJV)

God’s Righteous Judgment

2 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things.

• We know from 1 Corinthians 5 v12-13 [SUP]12 [/SUP]For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? [SUP]13 [/SUP]But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”[SUP][d][/SUP]
• How are we to reconcile Romans 2v1 and 1Corinthians 5v12-13 ?
• The Corinthians discourse makes allowance for judging those within the Church, but not those on the outside.
• But the judgement upon the church needs to be according to righteousness, and not hypocrisy.
• This can be seen in the following scripture of Jesus’ words: Matthew 7v3-5 [SUP]3 [/SUP]And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? [SUP]5 [/SUP]Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
• So Matthew 7v5 means that we are NOT to leave the speck in a brothers eye. We are in fact to help them. But helping them, when you yourself are steeped in sin with a plank in your own eye is the height of hypocrisy.
• And that is how we reconcile Romans 2v1 and 1 Corinthians 5v12-13. The judgement is according to righteousness.
• The Romans 2v1 above caters specifically for this person within the church who judges others (whether it be in the church or outside of the church); who himself/herself is also enslaved to that very sin.
  

[SUP]2 [/SUP]But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. [SUP]3 [/SUP]And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God?

• Who is this letter written to? It is written to the church in Rome, whom Paul calls to be saints; Romans 1v7a [SUP]7 [/SUP]To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:
  
• It is silly to assume that the above judgement is against those outside the church. The letter is not written to the outsiders but to those inside the church. It is equally silly to assume an outsider will stumble across these scriptures.
  
• We have clear evidence according to scriptures that God will not excuse the hypocrisy of His church. Just like He would not excuse the hypocrisy of the Pharisees, who instructed in one way, but did the exact opposite.
  

[SUP]4 [/SUP]Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?

• The above could just as easily been written as “Do you despise His Grace, not knowing that the Grace of God leads you to Repentance.
• The component parts of God’s grace, of which goodness, forbearance, longsuffering are part – is MEANT to lead you to REPENTANCE.
• How long will you tolerate your sins?
• How long will it take you to change your mind about sin?
• When will you use the free will which Christ purchased for you though the Cross and Resurrection to choose righteousness?

[SUP]5 [/SUP]But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,

• Yet God says that his church has hardness and impenitent hearts
• Impenitent means “unrepentant” - not feeling shame or regret about one's actions or attitudes.
• Hardness – not allowing or adhering to correction.
• And this attitude has a “payday”. For those in the church choosing this direction, there is a day of wrath.
• In this day of wrath there will be a “Revelation of the Righteous Judgement of God”. What does this mean? It means that there are those in the church who have no-cooking clue as to this part of God’s nature. That He is a righteous God and will not condone willful sin and transgressions within the Church. He may be patient in forbearance (verse 4) not wanting any to perish, but there is a Day when the Judgement comes to the house of God.
• Will you yet not repent? Will you still remain hardened? Church wake up. You cannot retain your sins and retain Christ.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]7 [/SUP]eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; [SUP]8 [/SUP]but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, [SUP]9 [/SUP]tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; [SUP]10 [/SUP]but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For there is no partiality with God.

• We all will be judged by our deeds.
• For those here who are so fearful that “any” deed is “works” – you need to read these passages again carefully.
• Eternal life is reserved for those who (1) continue patiently – keeping the faith (2) do good works (3) look forward to our inheritance and glorification. We see here that faith and good works are inexorably linked. As it is throughout scripture.
• Hell is reserved for those who are (1) self-seeking (2) disobedient
• This is as applicable to the Jew as it is to the Gentile (Greek). And we know that there are both Jews and Gentiles in the Church under the new covenant. God will not judge on this matter in one way for the Jew and in another way for the Gentile. You will receive according to what you do above.

[SUP]12 [/SUP]For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law [SUP]13 [/SUP](for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; [SUP]14 [/SUP]for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, [SUP]15 [/SUP]who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) [SUP]16 [/SUP]in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

• For those who received the law, they stand judged by this law. For those who did not receive the law, they are judged by their consciences (knowledge of good and evil).
• For the law is written on the hearts of his people under the new covenant: Hebrews 8v10 [SUP]10 [/SUP]For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.
• God puts the laws on the hearts and minds of both Jew and Gentile in the new covenant.
• The doers of the law will be justified (v13). Maybe you need to read that again. The DOERS of the LAW will be JUSTIFIED. Paul and James are in agreement: James 2v [SUP]24 [/SUP]You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
• For those who claim a divorce between faith and the law, we can see Paul writing the following in Romans 3v31 [SUP]31 [/SUP]Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
• Our consciences (“con” = with; “science” = knowledge) will either accuse us or excuse us on the day of Judgement, whereby our secrets will be laid open for all to see and Christ will judge them.
• Will you at this point decide to Repent? Church? Are you happy to test God’s patience as per Romans 2v4 and be ready to give an account to Him as per Romans 2v5? Adam and Eve’s conscience caused them to hide from God in the garden of Eden. Their eyes were opened and they became aware of their nakedness
• How much more will your nakedness be exposed on the day of Judgement should you decide not to repent whilst it is called TODAY.

[SUP]
17 [/SUP]Indeed[SUP][b][/SUP] you are called a Jew, and rest on the law, and make your boast in God, [SUP]18 [/SUP]and know His will, and approve the things that are excellent, being instructed out of the law, [SUP]19 [/SUP]and are confident that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, [SUP]20 [/SUP]an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, having the form of knowledge and truth in the law. [SUP]21 [/SUP]You, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that a man should not steal, do you steal? [SUP]22 [/SUP]You who say, “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? [SUP]23 [/SUP]You who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law? [SUP]24 [/SUP]For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,”[SUP][c][/SUP] as it is written.

• Being a hearer of the law is to no avail, being a teacher of the law is to no avail --- unless you are a DOER of the LAW.
• We are not justified by the law, we are justified by Faith. Believe on Jesus Christ. And Faith is made perfect by Works. James 2v22 [SUP]22 [/SUP]Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?
• Works are the evidence of Faith. See the whole of Hebrews 11 – Faith is ACTION.
• Do you, as is written in Romans 2v23, dishonour God through breaking the law? Never lose the context --- he is writing to the Church in Rome. And in this particular instance the Jews.

[SUP]
25 [/SUP]For circumcision is indeed profitable if you keep the law; but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.

• For a Jew, circumcision (a cutting off of the flesh, and symbolic of the separation of living according to the flesh ) only profits a Jew if they keep the law
• For what would the symbolic cutting off mean if this Jew were to simply follow the desires of the flesh by breaking the law. It’s like reattaching the cut away flesh.

[SUP]26 [/SUP]Therefore, if an uncircumcised man keeps the righteous requirements of the law, will not his uncircumcision be counted as circumcision?

• So if an uncircumcised man keeps the law, and by implication this means not living by the flesh and thus upholding the law, then this is the same as being counted as circumcised. This man has understood that the symbolic (physical circumcision) is not more important than the real circumcision of the heart. A separation. A Sanctification. Holiness.

[SUP]27 [/SUP]And will not the physically uncircumcised, if he fulfills the law, judge you who, even with your written code and circumcision, are a transgressor of the law?

• Hypocrisy will be judged.

[SUP]
28 [/SUP]For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; [SUP]29 [/SUP]but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

• Those who live by the Spirit will inherit eternal life
• Those who live by the flesh (uncircumcised in heart) will not inherit eternal life.

1 Corinthians 15:2 is another example of the Greek word for "if" which also means "Since" being used. It is a condition of the 1st class. Paul assumes they are holding fast.

1 Corinthians 15:2 (NASB)
[SUP]2 [/SUP] by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

If we hold it fast ([FONT="Gentium" !important]ei katechete[/FONT]).


Condition of first class. Paul assumes that they are holding it fast.

Word Pictures in the New Testament. A. T. Robertson Greek Scholar

Paul is simply saying that if there is no resurrection as some people were saying - then your believing is useless because we need to be resurrected from the dead with Christ and also eventually we will receive new bodies that will be incorruptible.

This is not a scripture in 1 Cor. 15:2 that says Christians lose their salvation in Christ."

Jesus is NOT a liar when He said that "the Holy Spirit will be in you forever."

Jesus is NOT a liar when He said that "all that come to Me - I will in no wise cast out."

Jesus is NOT a liar when He said "No one can pluck them out of My hands nor the Father's hands."

Jesus is NOT a liar when He said "It is My Father's will that I lose none that He has given to Me."

We all need to make the choice either to believe Jesus or believe some of our church teachings from some denominations that believe Jesus does not save us - but we save ourselves.

[video=youtube;5-F9_8yB9-M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-F9_8yB9-M[/video]

I don't see the problem? Paul says 'by which also you are saved if (or since) you hold fast the word which I entrusted to you.' That is the situation. Salvation ensures that we will hold fast the word. It is dependant on the faithfulness of God.

Romans was written to the church about the things of God. If Paul says "All unbelievers in Christ will be the lake of fire. - does that mean those reading the letter that are Christians will be in the lake of fire? Of course not.

Don't take someone else's medicine. All scripture was written "for" the church to learn but not all scripture was written "to" the church.

Without knowing this difference - we end up mixing up the covenants and we create a works-based/works-righteousness belief system that actually is denying Christ Himself.

We need to rightly divide the word of truth based on the finished work of Christ or we end up creating our own religion and calling it Christianity but in essence we are denying the Lord and Master Himself by denying what He has done for us.

Those outside of Christ will be judged by their own deeds as Rom 2 says whether Greek or Jew.

Believers are in Christ and He will be our righteousness. Deeds done by Him in us - the believer will receive rewards.

"If" is not the same as "Since"

If is always conditional. You very computer works on a programming language that uses "If". If a condition is met, then do this. In the above scripture: IF you hold fast the word preached to you, THEN you are saved. IF you do not hold fast the gospel Paul preached, THEN you are not saved. The conclusion is you believed in vain (you believed to no effect). So obedience is the golden thread.

Since (a figment of your imagination by trying to substitute your words into the Gospel) means "because of"

Well let's for the purposes of your imaginations actually make this substitution into the verse to see if it makes any sense looking at it this way:

1 Corinthians 15
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, [SUP]2 [/SUP]by which also you are saved, SINCE you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

1 Corinthians 15
15 Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, [SUP]2 [/SUP]by which also you are saved, BECAUSE you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.


- now, does the above make ANY sense at all?
- because the last part of this sentence "unless you believed in vain" counters EVERYTHING before this.
- the Since makes it an eternal impossibility to not hold fast the word preached - and then it goes on create the option of contradiction. So which is it?

Therefore it is accurate to leave the word (as it is) for the condition of salvation is predicated on holding fast the word of God. Which is your choice to do. "If" you do.

My interpretation of the meaning of "vain" is correct and your argument here is a distinction without a difference.

Strong's Concordance
eiké: without cause or reason, vainly
Original Word: εἰκῇ
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: eiké
Phonetic Spelling: (i-kay')
Short Definition: without purpose, in vain
Definition: without a cause, purpose; purposelessly, in vain, for nothing.
HELPS Word-studies
1500 eikḗ – properly, without cause (ground), without basis and therefore not to be taken seriously (considered valid). This adverb suggests, "What goes to no purpose . . . ".

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1500: εἰκῇ

1. inconsiderately, without purpose, without just cause.

2. in vain; without success or effect.

Attempting but failing is not succeeding. It's called shallow, temporary belief that has no root and withers away. Just as we see in Hebrews 12:5 - ..falls short/fails to obtain the grace of God.

To believe in vain = did not truly believe. It means this belief failed to take root and become firmly established, which explains why the person did not hold fast to the word which Paul preached. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of genuine or consummated belief resulting in salvation."

If they have not held fast that word which Paul preached, then they demonstrate that they believed in vain/without cause or without effect, to no purpose.

If you have not held fast to the word, then you believed in vain/without cause of effect, to no purpose because saving belief was never firmly rooted and established from the start.

*If, as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vain and worthless (vs. 14).

Yes and once again, saving belief/faith continues and is not some shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit/works and withers away.

Stop falsely accusing me of twisting scriptures and meanings of words.

Promoting eternal IN-security and falsely accusing believers who disagree with you seems to be your main purpose on Christian Chat.

followjesus said:

reneweddaybyday said:

What scripture says everyone has the law written in their hearts?

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romans 2:14-15 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another “

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Romans 2:15 does not say that the law is written in their hearts. Romans 2:15 says which shew the work of the law written in their hearts …


And if we think there is no difference between


the law written in their hearts

and

the work of the law written in their hearts


we are sadly mistaken.


The law written in the heart and put in the mind is new covenant reality available only after Day of Pentecost (Acts 2) and afforded only to those who are born again.

followjesus said:

its in our nature as humans, again its why even in the deepest parts of the world, people Know its wrong to kill, so they hide the action from others, people Know by nature right and wrong, but since the deception, we have both good, and evil working a war in us as to our actions.

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In agreement that the work of the law written in their hearts is the conscience. God has placed within each and every person the conscience, which is why and how the natural man has the capacity to respond to God when He comes knocking.


God gave the conscience so we would be able to not suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18) when truth is heard (faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God - Rom 10:17). We hear the truth, we do not suppress the truth in unrighteousness, and God brings increase in our hearts.


If, on the other hand, we hear the truth and suppress the truth in unrighteousness, no increase is worked in our hearts by God.

Sagart said:

That is true, but the scenario in chapter 17 is entirely different. In John 18, Jesus is referring to the physical lives of his disciples.

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John 6:64-65 makes it very clear that Judas never believed:


John 6:

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Well let's see:

Romans 1
[SUP]7 [/SUP]To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:

Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
- to the church

1 Corinthians 1
[SUP]2 [/SUP]To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who in every place call on the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:
- to the church

2 Corinthians 1
To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia:
-to the church

Galatians 1
[SUP]2 [/SUP]and all the brethren who are with me,

To the churches of Galatia:

-to the church


Ephesians 1
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

- to the church


it goes on and on in each letter. The word of God is to His people.

We don't have unbelievers "stumbling" across the bible and suddenly believing.

It is to the Church to take the gospel to the world and preach it to them: Romans 10v14.


Romans 2 contains warnings TO THE CHURCH. It is very clear from all of the scriptures I posted above.

Believed in vain (1 Corinthians 15:2).

In Matthew 6:7, we read - And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.

In Matthew 15:9, we read - And in vain they worship Me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.

In Colossians 1:23, we read - ..if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. The word "if" here is not ean, an unfulfilled, hypothetical condition used with the subjunctive mode, presenting the possibility of a future realization, but ei with the indicative, having here the idea of "assuming that you continue in the faith."

That is, continuance would show that the person's faith was firmly rooted and established in the hope of the gospel and they really HAVE BEEN reconciled. The form of this phrase in Greek (using the Gk. particle ei and the indicative mood of the verb epimenō) indicates that Paul fully expects that the Colossian believers will continue in the faith; no doubt is expressed, yet what about "nominal" Christians whose shallow, temporary belief withers away? They believed in vain.

It's only natural that Paul would speak this way, for he is addressing groups of people who profess to be Christians, without being able to know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance here that they will be eternally saved when in fact they may not? Paul knows that faith which is firmly grounded and established in the gospel from the start will continue. Those who continue in the faith show thereby that they are genuine believers. But those who do not continue show that their shallow, vain faith was not rooted and established in the gospel to begin with.

The above is just a way of excusing disobedience and rebellion.
If people walked in the law of Christ, they would not even suggest such a thing.

The problem with rebellion is it not not differentiate between a wrong word spoken
and murder. If you though out all morality, you are lawless.

Now these false teachers know this so they call being self righteous is being lawless.
The heart is searching for excuses, so any excuse will do no matter how feeble.
The self righteous fail because they are trying to justify themselves rather than
acknowledging the source of all good is from God, and our first response is worship
before Him.

One who believes in the Son has eternal life, but one who disobeys[a] the Son won’t see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. John 3:36(WEB)

[a]The same word can be translated “disobeys” or “disbelieves” in this context

Substituting words at will to adjust scripture to your man made doctrine is........twisting scripture. You are also of the same ilk, substituting the word "If" for "Since".

Are you paid to do this?

I have not substituted words to adjust scripture to man made doctrine. I am not twisting scripture. You just don't get it. Allow me to explain another passage in regards to the word "if."

Hebrews 3:14 - For we have become [past tense Gk. verb, gegonamen, meaning we have become already] partakers of Christ, "if" we (demonstrative evidence) hold fast the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end." Notice that this is essentially a repeat of verse 6, where we read: but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house - whose house we are, "if" we (demonstrative evidence) hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

The only ones in the end who will be identified as those who have become partakers of Christ, will have been those who hold fast the beginning of their confidence steadfast to the end. *These faltering Hebrews who depart from God begin with loud confidence and profession of loyalty. *But later? Perseverance is proof of genuine conversion. The wording of the above verse in Hebrews is not - "and you will become partakers of Christ (future indicative) if you (future indicative) hold fast." It is rather - "you have been, and now are, partakers of Christ, if in the future you hold fast to Christ."

*Holding fast to Christ is a manifestation of genuine belief and having become partakers of Christ and departing from God is a manifestation of unbelief and failure to have become partakers of Christ.

Romans 2 is proving that ALL are under sin, whether Jew or Gentile, and that ALL therefore need to be justified in Christ.

• This is to prove both Jew and Gentile are under sin. All are in the same boat
• We know from 1 Corinthians 5 v12-13 [SUP]12 [/SUP]For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? [SUP]13 [/SUP]But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”[SUP][d[/SUP]

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  [SUP]][/SUP]

[SUP]This is talking about our judging those who are within the church who have sinned openly.
[/SUP] Very simple. Romans 2.1 addresses the 'good' among mankind. 1 Cor 5.12-13 addresses the judging of evil within the church.

Correct, while Romans 2 is addressed who are not Christians, as part of his proof that ALL are under God's judgment.

No it is addressed to philosophers and 'good men' who are depending on their goodness to justify them.



So Paul is proving everyone is under sin before God and therefore requires to be justified by faith,.

"Vain" means without cause or purpose. Your definition above was no different to mine. To believe in vain does not mean you never believed. It means that you believed to no cause or purpose.

If I shout across from one mountain top to someone standing at the peak of another mountain top (and this person does not hear me), then it means I shouted in vain (to no cause or purpose, for nothing). Does that mean I didn't shout? No, ofcourse not. I certainly shouted. It was just in vain.

Theerefore to believe in vain is when one believes but yet holds not onto the things taught. That is to believe in vain (to no cause or purpose, for nothing).

This is backed up by a myriad of scriptures showing the risks of falling away from the faith.

Which by the way you twist as well.