Revelation 3:5

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shrume

Senior Member
#21
Jun 26, 2017
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#21
Ralph- said:
shrume said:
I'd like to know how it's possible for a person to get unborn...
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Take the Holy Spirit out of a person.
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The only place in the Bible where you find that kind of language is in the OT, before it became available to become BORN of the Holy Spirit. We are born of incorruptible seed (1 Pet 1:23), sealed with it (Eph 3:13). You cannot become unborn.

What you are saying is that my earthly father did a better job that my heavenly Father. I cannot become unborn of my earthly father. As long as I live, whether I was in his good graces or out in left field, even if I disassociate myself from him, I am always his son. Do you think God would do less?
 
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shrume

Senior Member
#22
Jun 26, 2017
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#22
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
A son may remain a son, but a disobedient son can be disinherited. And that is what salvation is - an inheritance.
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No it isn't. It is a gift.

Rom 6:
23) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

We may gain or lose rewards (inheritance) by our behavior, but salvation is a gift, given by God to us when we confess Jesus Christ as Lord and believe in our heart that God raised him from the dead.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#23
Sep 4, 2012
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#23
shrume said:
No it isn't. It is a gift.

Rom 6:
23) For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

We may gain or lose rewards (inheritance) by our behavior, but salvation is a gift, given by God to us when we confess Jesus Christ as Lord and believe in our heart that God raised him from the dead.
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Inheritance is a gift because GOD's sons are adopted. They had no right to an inheritance.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#24
Jul 18, 2017
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#24
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
A son may remain a son, but a disobedient son can be disinherited. And that is what salvation is - an inheritance.
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Salvation is NOT an inheritance. It is purely a GIFT of God's grace.

JOHN 3
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 6:23)

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:8-10)
 
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shrume

Senior Member
#25
Jun 26, 2017
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#25
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
Inheritance is a gift because GOD's sons are adopted. They had no right to an inheritance.
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We are sons of God by birth (the new birth) and by adoption. God says it a couple of different ways to make sure we get the message. And in the biblical culture, adoption was stronger than birth. Parents could disown their natural children, but they could not disown adopted children. God's children are guaranteed to be in the kingdom (salvation). But we are not guaranteed rewards. Those are earned, and can be lost. And rewards are a big deal, bigger than most Christians think.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#26
Sep 4, 2012
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#26
shrume said:
We are sons of God by birth (the new birth) and by adoption. God says it a couple of different ways to make sure we get the message. And in the biblical culture, adoption was stronger than birth. Parents could disown their natural children, but they could not disown adopted children. God's children are guaranteed to be in the kingdom (salvation). But we are not guaranteed rewards. Those are earned, and can be lost. And rewards are a big deal, bigger than most Christians think.
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Disowned is not the same as disinherited. The inheritance of GOD is clearly salvation. Surely you won't be so foolish to say that the people described below will simply miss out on rewards because they have no inheritance in the kingdom of GOD.

For this you know for certain, that every sexually immoral person, or unclean person, or greedy person (who is an idolater), does not have an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Ephesians 5:5​
 
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shrume

Senior Member
#27
Jun 26, 2017
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#27
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
Disowned is not the same as disinherited. The inheritance of GOD is clearly salvation.
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Again, salvation is a gift.

Surely you won't be so foolish to say that the people described below will simply miss out on rewards because they have no inheritance in the kingdom of GOD.

For this you know for certain, that every sexually immoral person, or unclean person, or greedy person (who is an idolater), does not have an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Ephesians 5:5​
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"Missing out on rewards" will be a huge deal, with everlasting consequences. I believe we are saved by faith in Christ, and not by works (Eph 2:8-9). We are saved by faith in Christ, not by not sinning. All men sin. We aren't saved by not sinning, and we do not become unsaved by sinning.
 
Ahwatukee

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
#28
Mar 12, 2015
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#28
Nehemiah6 said:
Salvation is NOT an inheritance. It is purely a GIFT of God's grace.

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
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HI Nehemia6! I would add that "whosoever believeth in Him" is an on-going faith from beginning to end and not just a one confession.

All the promises, the sealing of the Spirit is dependent upon the believer continuing in faith. Regarding this, how do you explain the following scriptures:

"
Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of his household, to give the others their food at the proper time? Blessed is that servant whose master returns and finds him doing his job. Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions.

But suppose that servant is wicked and says in his heart, ‘My master will be away a long time.’ And he begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day he does not anticipate and at an hour he does not expect. Then he will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Beating his fellow servants and eating and drinking with drunkards, is basically referring to that servant going back to living according to the sinful nature. Jesus being the "master" of the parable, if He comes back and finds that servant living in that state, will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites. The believer is saved by grace through faith, a faith that is from first to last, not just a one time confession. Regarding going back to living according to the sinful nature, Jesus warned His disciples and all believers and specifically those believers who would be living just before the time of God's wrath of the following:

"Be careful, or your hearts will be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you suddenly like a trap. For it will come on all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

Paul also said the following regarding eternal security:

"Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—23 if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel.

Regarding the scripture above, everything is true IF you keep verse 23. Paul also reiterated the same teaching in Heb.3:14 -

"We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end."

Eternal security is obtained and maintained by faith from beginning to end.
 
HeRoseFromTheDead

HeRoseFromTheDead

Senior Member
#29
Sep 4, 2012
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#29
shrume said:
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
Surely you won't be so foolish to say that the people described below will simply miss out on rewards because they have no inheritance in the kingdom of GOD.

For this you know for certain, that every sexually immoral person, or unclean person, or greedy person (who is an idolater), does not have an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Ephesians 5:5
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"Missing out on rewards" will be a huge deal, with everlasting consequences. I believe we are saved by faith in Christ, and not by works (Eph 2:8-9). We are saved by faith in Christ, not by not sinning. All men sin. We aren't saved by not sinning, and we do not become unsaved by sinning.
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So you are saying that inheritance in Ephesians 5:5 refers to rewards, not salvation. Wow.
 
Nehemiah6

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
#30
Jul 18, 2017
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#30
Ahwatukee said:
But suppose that servant is wicked and says in his heart...
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There's your answer. If the servant is "wicked" it means he was unconverted, though outwardly professing to have Christ as Lord and Master. Judas Iscariot is a good example.

The righteous are never called wicked, neither are the wicked called righteous. And sinners are deemed to be righteous when they are justified by grace through faith. God sees them as "saints" immediately.

ROMANS 4
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#31
Nov 12, 2015
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#31
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
For this you know for certain, that every sexually immoral person, or unclean person, or greedy person (who is an idolater), does not have an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Ephesians 5:5
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And THAT is why flesh cannot inherit. THAT is why my flesh will never get there but has to die one day. Sexual immorality is not just outward actions. It can happen with NO outward action at all. It can happen in the thoughts. And NO flesh is pure in His sight. My flesh is condemned because of sin. But my spirit lives. Otherwise, my flesh would live forever once I met God and received His Spirit.
 
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Ralph-

Guest
#32
#32
shrume said:
What you are saying is that my earthly father did a better job that my heavenly Father. I cannot become unborn of my earthly father.
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What I'm saying is you are exaggerating the analogy of the new birth. A new and separate being was not born into the universe when you got saved. The new birth is the old you made new by the Holy Spirit. He can just as easily make you not new and different anymore by simply withdrawing his Spirit. It's not the rock that God can't move that people are making it out to be.
 
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Ralph-

Guest
#33
#33
HeRoseFromTheDead said:
So you are saying that inheritance in Ephesians 5:5 refers to rewards, not salvation. Wow.
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It's called 'Hyper/Freegrace' doctrine. It's ruining the church in these end times in accordance with prophecy, IMO.

In that doctrine you can even go back to unbelief and an open denial of Christ and the most that will happen is you lose any reward you would have otherwise had if you had not fallen back into unbelief. Yeah, I know.........pretty crazy, but that's where the church is at these days.
 
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Ralph-

Guest
#34
#34
Nehemiah6 said:
Since God gives sinners the GIFT of the Holy Spirit, and His gifts are irreversible, the Holy Spirit cannot -- and will not -- depart out of any genuine child of God.
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Show me in context that is what Paul is saying in Romans 11:29 and I will show you in context he is saying the promises to Israel have not been revoked because of their rejection of Christ. Paul uses himself as proof that God is still keeping his promise to Abraham despite the fact Israel as a nation has rejected Christ. Israelites can still get saved and receive the promises God made to Abraham. That promise has not been revoked. That's what it means.

God's promise to Abraham and his descendants is what can not be revoked. He is not saying once a person has the gift of the Holy Spirit it can not be revoked. Read it.



Nehemiah6 said:
The child of God is SEALED with the Holy Spirit, which means that that person is Christ's purchased possession.
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Since when does 'sealed' mean by definition 'unable to be unsealed'?

Something is sealed until it is no longer sealed. Sealed does not mean 'can not ever be unsealed'.
 
NayborBear

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#35
Dec 6, 2015
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A deplorable! (so you know, what "state" I'm in!)
#35
(if you're not this guy? Just pass up my post here :))

MelchizedekAKAMichael said:
When I had my Epiphany ,I was concerned about a lifetime of past sins.But I felt those leave me when the Holy Spirit coming upon me.
so what of the future?
I right away saw that my Spirit was healed of sin,but my flesh still had that temptation to sin.
that's the battle that never ends.Sadly sometimes no matter how hard you try,the flesh wins.So do you give up?No,you fight on and try to do better! I found what works best is trust in Jesus,get up each morning,do the very best you can each day,and see what happens.
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I'm interested not so much what you "saw" in, or during your "epiphany."(although, I am, to an extent...lol) Rather, what you felt like, during this "experience."

I mean, did it "feel" like a "wave of love" so powerful and "filling", that, although, you may have found humorous, at first, but, finding NOWHERE it couldn't "reach/see" you, that you were seeing yourself, outside of yourself (as your soul was WITH Him), like a puddle of water, on the floor, or a quivering blob of protoplasm, with nothing but yer "ticker" protruding from this blob, going "ta-thunk, ta-think, ta-thunk?" Feeling, VERY SMALL, and insignificant? Yet feeling very loved? Feeling like a very long time had passed during this "experience?" But, only about 20 minutes, on the "earth age" clock? :)
 
so-jesus-e-deus

so-jesus-e-deus

Senior Member
#36
Feb 7, 2017
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#36
LW97 said:
"He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. " (Revelation 3:5)

So we can lose our salvation, can't we? Well, first off in this verse Jesus makes a promise. He says "will not blot out", not "might not blot out". It is a PROMISE to EVERYBODY that overcomes. Of course, those who do not overcome will be blot out. But who are the overcomers?

"For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. " (1 John 5:4)

If you are born again, you are an overcomer!

And who is in the Book of Life? When do you get included in there? When you get saved, correct? Well, let's see...

"Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. " (Psalm 139:16)

So we all were written there before the foundation of the world. God bless
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Right. I agree with you. Some people, in the Grand Tribulation, will have their names written in the book of life (in order not to serve the Antichrist), but then their names will be removed because they do not serve Christ properly.
 
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shrume

Senior Member
#37
Jun 26, 2017
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#37
Ralph- said:
What I'm saying is you are exaggerating the analogy of the new birth. A new and separate being was not born into the universe when you got saved. The new birth is the old you made new by the Holy Spirit. He can just as easily make you not new and different anymore by simply withdrawing his Spirit. It's not the rock that God can't move that people are making it out to be.
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There is NO record in the NT where God withdraws His Holy Spirit from someone who is born again. When we hear the gospel and believe it, we are SEALED with the gift of the Holy Spirit, which is the guarantee of salvation.
 
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Stunnedbygrace

Senior Member
#38
Nov 12, 2015
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#38
shrume said:
There is NO record in the NT where God withdraws His Holy Spirit from someone who is born again. When we hear the gospel and believe it, we are SEALED with the gift of the Holy Spirit, which is the guarantee of salvation.
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They are trying to say a man can divorce his wife for unfaithfulness. That God can divorce us as He divorced Israel, for unfaithfulness.
But there are a few things to consider here.

1. We are told this law was not good for us but He only gave it to us because of the hardness of our hearts.
2. Actually...I'll not bring up the rest yet.
 
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Ralph-

Guest
#39
#39
shrume said:
There is NO record in the NT where God withdraws His Holy Spirit from someone who is born again. When we hear the gospel and believe it, we are SEALED with the gift of the Holy Spirit, which is the guarantee of salvation.
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The Galatians were warned that if they became slaves of the old covenant again they would not be heirs with the sons of the New Covenant. The promised inheritance includes the Holy Spirit:

18 ...God has granted it (the inheritance) to Abraham by means of a promise (not by means of the law).

29 if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law... 14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Galatians 3:18,29,13-14


They will lose the promised Holy Spirit and the inheritance it guarantees if they remove themselves from faith in Christ for justification and go back to the law for justification.

Boom! Loss of the Holy Spirit and salvation all in one passage. All for failing to continue in faith in Christ.
 
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shrume

Senior Member
#40
Jun 26, 2017
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#40
Ralph- said:
The Galatians were warned that if they became slaves of the old covenant again they would not be heirs with the sons of the New Covenant. The promised inheritance includes the Holy Spirit:

18 ...God has granted it (the inheritance) to Abraham by means of a promise (not by means of the law).

29 if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s descendants, heirs according to promise.

13Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law... 14in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Galatians 3:18,29,13-14


They will lose the promised Holy Spirit and the inheritance it guarantees if they remove themselves from faith in Christ for justification and go back to the law for justification.

Boom! Loss of the Holy Spirit and salvation all in one passage. All for failing to continue in faith in Christ.
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The scripture you quoted do not say anything about the loss of the Holy Spirit, or the loss of salvation.

The Galatians were saved, they already had the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Gal 1:
2) And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:
6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

They had heard the gospel, and believed it, and were saved. But they were being persuaded by the Judaizers that they needed to keep the law. Paul wrote to correct them. He never once stated they would no longer have the Holy Spirit, or no longer be saved.
 
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