The Heresy of Annihilationism

human reasoning and earthly judgement are not in context to an Eternal God who made hell and the ones going there for ever and ever. Not going to agree it is error to speak of hell as not a place of eternity or torment when Jesus said it is. You cannot remove that truth. Where Jesus is speaking it is authoritative everything else pertaining to help must be consistent with Christ. there are types and shadows that are unclear , yes but when Jesus speaks we are to build from the scriptures onHIS words as did paul and John and others . the normative an unity of scriptures is Hell is place of eternal punishment. all the other one word studies and greek language does not change the Biblical context of hell . That is error guys period.

We don't always agree and have had a few fiery exchanges before, but for the record....I fully AGREE with the above......

I was asked to come and take a look at this thread, which seems to be a discussion of whether the lost will go to hell and suffer eternal punishment. What I have found, is the worst possible hermeneutics!

1. Word definitions
2. verses out of context,
3. quoting some bad sources for the definitions of words.
4. not using the whole Bible, instead of 1 or 2 proof texts.


First, you can NEVER prove anything using word studies. That is an attempt to make Greek into English. The only thing worse than taking a verse out of context, is taking a word out of context. There is not ONE post on this thread, that looks at a single verse in context of the paragraph, or at least the verses around it. I started looking at some words, and I was forced to go forwards and backwards for each verse. And I find a lot of words for death, perish, that changed within the passages. So again, word studies don't prove anything!

I was asked specifically to look at 2 verses, but in reading the thread, Matt 10:28 also came up, which I think is important.

A. "καὶ μὴ [a]φοβεῖσθε ἀπὸ τῶν ἀποκτεννόντων τὸ σῶμα τὴν δὲ ψυχὴν μὴ δυναμένων ἀποκτεῖναι· φοβεῖσθε δὲ μᾶλλον τὸν δυνάμενον καὶ ψυχὴν καὶ σῶμα ἀπολέσαι ἐν γεέννῃ." Matt 10:28 Greek

"26 “Do not be afraid of them, for nothing is hidden that will not be revealed, and nothing is secret that will not be made known. 27 What I say to you in the dark, tell in the light, and what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the housetops. 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Aren’t two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father’s will. 30 Even all the hairs on your head are numbered. 31 So do not be afraid; you are more valuable than many sparrows.
32 “Whoever, then, acknowledges me before people, I will acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever denies me before people, I will deny him also before my Father in heaven." Matt 10:26-32 NET

Bauer, BDAG A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Early Christian Literature says the following for ἀπολέσαι (an infinitive of ἀπόλλυμι) in Matt 10:28: To cause or experience destruction: a. ruin, destroy. So, if it is to be annihilation, this will not support it! Because it RUINS, people. That sounds like hell to me.

Of course, in context, there are many other words to do with death, like ἀποκτεννόντων, which is a present active participle, and means "to kill, used of any way to deprive a person of life." Bauer, BDAG says of Matt. 10:28:

"to deprive of life, to kill". a. of life in the transcendent sense: Refers to Romans 7:11 - the letter (of the law) kills, in so far as the legal letter causes humans to die." So, it is not talking about the body, but rather the soul - τὴν ψυχὴν (accusative feminine)

Noland, in The New International Greek Testament Commentary: The Gospel of Matthew says of this verse 28, "there is a particular parallelism between the 2 halves of v. 28, - including a chiastic word order for the two occurrences of body and soul. Where the first "do not fear" takes up the thread to life (vv. 19-20), the second takes up the threat to life (vv. 21-22). the unresolved tension there between the need to endure to the end, and the possibility of losing one's life along the way, is now addressed in terms of the post-death situation.

Th ultimacy of death is relativized by the image of the more fearful "death" experience. Talk of killing 'the body' already implies that there is more to a person than the body, but the presence of the body again in the post-death state warns against a division along the lines of mortal body and immortal soul. Soul ψυχὴ means more the essential person than an ontologically separable component of a person.

Matthew's point is not that the soul is deathless, but only that God has power over it. Death is a dreadful reversal, but not the most extreme one possible. Fear of God is to replace the fear of deal-dealing persecutors (see vv. 16-25). The stakes are higher with God!

'Destroy' ἀπόλλυμι replaces 'kill' ἀποκτείνω as more appropriate for a post-death situation contemplated here. "Destroy" would naturally imply annihilation. While there are NO Matthean texts compatible with such an understanding, there are probably some early Jewish traditions of perpetual punishment and some biblical texts are naturally read this way! Nolland concludes his section on v 28, by mentioning Matt 22:23-33. Which, for me, is the real point of the discussions on the afterlife.

"Now as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living!” 33 When the crowds heard this, they were amazed at his teaching." Matt 22:31-33

Why are we even discussing hypothetical possibilities of the afterlife? Instead, we should be discussing the living and risen king, and that he is the God of the living! That is us.

Finally, does your belief about the afterlife inspire you to share your testimony, and the gospel with those who are unbelievers? To love and care for them? To pray without ceasing for their salvation? Because if it does not, you have picked the wrong side. Personally, I went through a wishful thinking stage, of hoping that annihilationism was right. After a lot of reading the Bible in context, I became convinced that the lost do go to hell. That would not be my way, but I believe it is God's!

Well, I have not even touched on John 11:25 and the word perish, or Rev. 20:14 and the "second death." If anyone wants me to do a post for each, let me know. I have lots of good Greek resources at my finger tips!

Do they personally experience condemnation after they have been executed? No. They are dead.

But they remain condemned.

I don't follow your reasoning.

If someone has been annihilated, they have experienced destruction and ruin. They have been destroyed.

How can they remain condemned when they no longer exist? That's silly.

Also, judgment was executed so there can be no more condemnation. If they were to rise from the dead they couldn't justly be condemned again because they paid the price for their crime.

Neither of those is eternal condemnation.

Can you uncondemn a dead man? And even if you could, what good is it? The man is dead.

Again, what good does that do to a dead man?

But that cannot happen. If not for the upcoming resurrections, dead people remain dead.

We see it differently.

I'm not seeing how to experience destruction does not support being destructed or completely ruined/annihilated.
Of course, I am thinking of...say a building, that faces destruction, complete ruination, demolition.

I'm not seeing that experience destruction is a different thing to say than experience ruination.

But thank you for looking it up for us!

That word is καταλύω (kataluo). The word we are considering is ἀπόλλυμι (apollumi). A good example of its usage is Exodus 10:7 where the servants of Pharaoh implore him to leave the Israelites alone because GOD has already destroyed Egypt - yet it is still there, albeit ruined.

again human reasoning to explain Biblical truths

more human reasoning no Biblical truths

I have always believed that the worm referred to in Mark 9:48 (point #14 in initial post) referred to the damned soul in hell.
Are there other ideas about what this worm represents?


bb

I think it represents corruption, like maggots eating decomposing organic matter.

worm
G4663 σκώληξ skolex (sko'-lakes) n.
1. a grub, maggot or earth-worm

Yes, I decided to do it the way I have always done it instead of to keep trying to do it online, which gets too confusing to me.

It is in fact apollumi and it;s definition in Strongs is: destroy fully.

What I will normally do is take that back to the verse and if it makes really, really good sense in context, I don't even look up the other instances of the word (like you did in Exodus). But if it still isn't seated well in my mind even with the context, then I will maybe delve further.

So, I took: destroy fully, back to the verse I'm wondering about and it makes wonderful sense, so I really don't need to dig for other examples and contexts to try to get a grasp on it.

It reads like this: do not fear men who can kill your body, but fear God who can fully destroy both body and soul in hell.
So men can destroy/kill my temporary tent, but only God can fully destroy a man.

present or absent with the Lord ?

If being absent means He is already with the Lord then
how is it that the absent still hopes to be accepted of him?

"earnestly desiring to be [clothed upon] with our house which is [from] heaven:"

-

2Co 5:1 For we know that if the earthly house of our tabernacle be dissolved,
we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal, in the heavens.

-Paul uses the tabernacle to represent our earthly house/body which will be
dissolved/mortal. but we have a building form God a house not made with hands,
eternal/immortal, in the heavens.

why is Paul saying this? The context from the prior chapter will help:

2Co 4:16 Wherefore we faint not; but though our outward man is decaying,
yet our inward man is renewed day by day. For our light affliction, which is for
the moment, worketh for us more and more exceedingly an eternal weight of glory;

while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen:
for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

-Our outward man/tabernacle/body is decaying it is mortal but we have faith
in the things that are eternal. What is this in relation to? when will this be?

2Co 4:14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus
shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

-So Paul faints not because of the Grace God gives and the promise that
this corrupt outward mortal man will be raised to eternal life just as Jesus was.

So again Paul says:

2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be [clothed upon] with our house
which is [from] heaven: 2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.


-We want that clothing that is from heaven. what clothing?

2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that
we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

-mortality might put on life or immortality in other words.

Remember Paul has already connected the Resurrection with this in chapter 4.
but lets make it clear before we go on in the chapter:

1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption;
it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory:
it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy,
we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be
changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet
shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on
immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and
this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying
that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

-This all takes place at the last trump at the coming of Christ. when our
mortal bodies are clothed in immortality changed in the twinkling of an eye.

-What does Paul mean we shall not all sleep and the last trump?

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them
which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive
and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice
of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them
in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


-So the last Trump is at the second coming of Jesus, and we shall not all sleep
but some will still be alive and remain. Those who sleep are resurrected at this time.

So lets go back to the texts in question:

2Co 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God,
who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
2Co 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are
at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:


2Co 5:7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight)

-So through the earnestness of the Spirit they walk by faith not by sight,
in this earthly body and are absent from the Lord. because they are here
on earth and the judgment has not yet come. but:

2Co 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body,
and to be present with the Lord.

-They are willing or want to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.
Contextually we have seen this happens at the resurrection not instantly.

Paul does not say or even infer that this is instantaneous at all. He simply says
he would like to be out of this mortal body and to be present with the Lord.
He does not even say that one equals the other but rather he wants to with the Lord.

Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.


Notice that he says, "present or absent" we may be accepted of him.
If being absent means He is already with the Lord then
how is it that the absent still hopes to be accepted of him?

Paul is simply saying that they labour in life by faith in this mortal body.
and the works that they do will follow them even in death/absent.

As it is written:

Rev 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write,
Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the
Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.


2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ;
that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to
that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Heb_9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die,
but after this the judgment:

maggots do not die, they change into fly's,
and it is the fly that dies, not "the maggot"

wormwood refers to bitterness and cursed the bitterness and curse that Never stops

Yes eternal punishment never to rise to new spirit life (dead)

It would seem hell is described as a living work of suffering. It can be seen in the historically accurate parable of Jonah used to represent the Son of man in the garden where Christ began working drinking the cup of wrath indicated by sweating as if it was literal blood , the pouring out of His Spirit as described in Joel .

No dead sacrifices. like the sacrifices used in ceremonial laws. Ceremonial laws are used as a parable to represent the suffering of Christ beforehand .The literal corrupted blood must be poured out at the feet of the alter as it was which the of the Son of man .(corruption cannot inherit incorruption) the literal blood returned to the lifeless spiritless dust it was formed from and the Spirit of Christ of His own volition will returned to the father.

Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the fish's belly, And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me. Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple. The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head. I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O Lord my God.When my soul fainted within me I remembered the Lord: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy. But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the Lord. And the Lord spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.Jonah 2:1-10

The belly of hell is the same kind of metaphor as the heart of the earth.(above ground suffering)

Strong's is not a good concordance to use. It is a backwards translation from KJV. So, you are getting 16th century definitions and theology. In 400 years, we have learned a lot - like that appolumi means "ruin, destroy" (BDAG) NOT "destroy completely."

That is why I so utterly detest theology by word searches. You need the very best lexicon, but you need about 20 other sources.The Greek exegetical commentary I mentioned, for each passage, he has over a 100 different sources, that he has read, and looked for agreements and disagreements. He quotes them, and tries to flesh things out, but without saying his own opinion. That is the kind of sources we need to look at, not Strong's or some internet teacher, quoting Strong's or something else.

I know that Brown-Driver-Briggs BDB the top Hebrew lexicon can be found on-line. I have a copy on my desktop on my old computer. Not sure about BDAG. I'm getting Accordance, I believe, with my course, which has a lot of good resources.

Then the flies lay eggs, which produce more maggots. Thus the worm never dies.