Power to forgive sins on behalf of Christ

Then why was Judas replaced and why did Jesus call Paul to be an apostle. Perhaps the church was growing? Whaat about second century bishops like Polycarp who was a disciple of John

Judas was to have been replaced anyhow. His betrayal was known to God and Christ from the very beginning. Paul was his very worthy replacement. And there are only twelve apostles of the Lamb. Period.

If apostolic succession was indeed being practiced, then God would be the one choosing the successors of the apostles. Which would mean that they would ALL be worthy and godly men, and would also hold to sound doctrine.

But we know from Catholic history that the majority of those men were unworthy, many promoted false doctrines and some of them were plain wicked. So apostolic succession is a myth.

let us 'pray' -

Are you familiar with any of the early church fathers? This is way before the mythical Great Apostasy. Speaking of which when do you date the church going off the rails?

What is the office of bishop Paul speaks about in 1 Tim? Do you have bishops in your church?

Yes, I am familiar with the Early Church Fathers. The Apostolic Fathers (such as Polycarp) and many of the Ante-Nicene Fathers were very sound in their doctrines and were godly men. But a few errors had already crept into their thinking. But after 400 AD (and the coming of Constantine) more and more errors crept into the churches and the writings of the Fathers. Read The History of the Christian Church by Philip Schaff.

Bishops were elders and elders were bishops. The terms are used interchangeably in the NT. However, shortly after the demise of the apostles, the term bishop took on a different meaning -- one man over several churches, rather than one among many elders within a local church.

Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops [PLURAL] and deacons (Phil 1:1).

For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders [PLURAL] in every city, as I had appointed thee (Titus 1:5)

The term bishop (episkops = overseer) corresponds to "taking the oversight". The term elder (presbuteros = elder) corresponds to spiritual maturity and leadership.

Had there been a single bishop over the elders, deacons, and brethren, that would have come out sooner or later in the NT. But even Peter -- the alleged first bishop of Rome -- is not even mentioned in the epistle to the Romans.

Maybe they were not errors. Perhaps the errors came with Luther, Calvin and Zwingli. Now look at the state of things by looking at this website. You have millions of Popes. At least we have only one.

I recognize no hierarchy within the church above the local pastor/teacher, save the Holy Spirit.

Why did they need Jesus then?

Because after Jesus's works he became the "Only" High Priest and Mediator,to suggest or claim that Jesus's disciples,followers,or apostles had the power to "forgive sins" is "going against Jesus".

well, Metternich, you already have your doctrine on this which is why you question as you do

it is not my doctrine and not the doctrine of others here as you can tell by the answers

I don't find it necessary to be cross examined by you and you will not be catching anyone in a slip up so you can have an "I gotcha moment'

you believe you were 'saved' in infancy at baptism and you believe a man can forgive the sins of another person even though that man is just as sinful as the one they propose to forgive

this is not what Christians believe

not going to continue to entertain this

Joe,

you're awesome and very courageous...this is 'rare' and very special...

Thank you though not as "rare" as you may think I have several times spoke on what is "correct" and what is "against God/Jesus" as far as "courageous I'm still working on that, right now I'm more of "exclusive" than anything else,I just joined another Christian site,and of course you know I'm on youtube now and now even twitter I don't know if that's considered "courageous" or "brave" expanding my horizons and audience but I certainly am more "active" one way or another lol!

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is it just 'me', or is it us recognizing the 'deceiver', from our PAST!!!
praying for you and for me/us...

Could we discuss this a little further? These errors in the ante-nicene fathers. Were they Catholic errors or something nobody believes today? Could you provide some references?

In some newly founded Bible based religious scams

Some religious leaders now addressed themselves as apostles

hahahaha

the funnier is one is introducing himself as the Son of God and he is the best friend of our present president.

It comes from Matthew 18.

19“Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven."-Matthew 18:19

Note that in context Jesus is applying this teaching to forgiveness and restoration.
If a person offers forgiveness and the other person receives it, it's a done deal with God too. That's what Jesus said.

All of that comes from from a improper understanding of the word "apostle". It without any extra meanings added to it simply means "sent one". He sends out his saints two by two to bring the gospel, as in all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura)

How beautiful are their feet shod with the gospel. Christ replied if he does not wash their feet with the "water of the word" (the gospel ) they have no part with Him

The first apostle was Abel, God sent him with the gospel. His brother Cain who walked by sight killed the misperceived competition... as in out of sight out of mind.... walking by sight as the Catholic must .

He set aside twelve with one missing ( Judas) to represent (no faith) to be used in various parables just as in the same way he set aide 12 tribes with one missing (Dan) to represent the same one bride of Christ the church .

Makes a interesting study.

One Pope, or what the Bible identifies as a daysman is to many.....and a thousand is not enough for those who go above all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura)

No infallible earthly interpreter as a umpire set between God and man as that seen (daysman Pope) . We walk by the faith that comes from hearing the promised teacher comforter and guide . Even Christ, as the Son of man as that seen when called good teacher gave glory to God unseen.


Luke 18:18-20 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

One is our Holy Father in heaven not seen. We are to call no man as that seen Holy Father on earth. One is our infallible teacher in heaven not seen we are to call no man as that seen daysman/ Pope on earth


Its easy to see that the Catholic need to think of God as a man as us .How else would they reconcile the need of worshiping the corrupted flesh of Mary and making her into the queen of mercy as if the real Mary was crucified for the sins of the world.

For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both .(God and man) Job 9:32-33