a born-again Christian can never (keyword: never) lose their salvation

Did the adversary overtake Christ when the two met?

You are flesh and blood, not Jesus Christ. the creator of all things. Your flesh is weak.

God is strong. We are indwelt with his holy spirit and we have been bought with a price. Satan cannot overcome that. 1 Corinthians 6:20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies.

What part of I NEVER knew you don't you understand? It clearly means they were NEVER saved. There are false prophets who prophecy in the name of Jesus and even make false prophecies. Also, Satan may grant the power to one of his agents to cast out demons from another of his agents in order to gain attention and loyalty from an audience for his evil agenda. False teachers and false prophets have long demonstrated supernatural power granted by Satan, including the power to control the demonic realm. The enemy uses this deception to win an audience for his claims.

I once knew a Mormon woman who claimed to cast a demon out of a teenage boy and said the demon started to attack her, but then in a very eerie voice said, "you are a child of God!" and then departed. She was very boastful about how that demon knew not to mess with her because she was a child of God! You can always trust a demon to tell you the truth, NOT! Demons can easily put on a show to make you think that you casted them out. This experience caused her to be even more convinced that she was secure in her false religion, which was obviously the plan of the demon.

In Matthew 10:1, we also see that Jesus gave His 12 disciples power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. This would include Judas Iscariot, yet Jesus referred to Judas Iscariot as an unclean devil who would betray Him! (John 6:71; 13:10-11). Apparently, Judas believed that Jesus' name has the power to cast out demons but did not truly believe in His name (John 1:12) and become a child of God, but instead was the son of perdition (John 17:12).

The posters are bringing in a lot of things besides "salvation". If we cut it all except for salvation, it is a gift that we receive from the Lord and one that is separated from law keeping. We cannot fully understand it because it has to do with what happens to us when we die from this life. The only tie in with law I can think of is when we are told that no drunkards, etc. will be received in the kingdom. We are told that salvation rests on faith alone. The only unpardonable sin is a denial of God.

So can we have faith in God and not have faith in all God tells us in scripture?

We are promised many rewards for law keeping, and Christ gave commentaries on it that explained the law much better than any OT scripture did. But salvation is not one of the rewards. The question becomes can we live outside of the law and keep our salvation? We are told we all do this, and the only answer is to live through Christ. Does this impact our salvation?

I guess we all should find out since Paul said that is what we are to be:

"prove yourselves to be blameless and innocent, children of God above reproach in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation"-Philippians 2:15


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The sad part is so many think this is what matters in the Christian faith.

Doctrine always wins out over behavior in the Church.

2 Peter 2:20 is speaking of false professors. Just read the verse in context. These were never saved but were posing as believers. They teach false ascetism just like most false religions.

Jesus said that those who come to Him He will never cast them out. Jesus said that those who were saved He would never lose any of them.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

So you would agree with MailmanDan that when Peter says they escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ these are not saved individuals. I posed this question to gotquestions.org and they said the only way to escape the defilements of the world is saving faith in Jesus.

Well, got questions does not have final say over doctrine. Confused as to why you think they do.

And yes, I believe as Dan does that having the knowledge of Jesus is different than being born again through accepting Jesus, and made new.
If Peter meant after having been SAVED, he very easily could have said just that.

I know a lot of people who said they were once Christian, and now no longer believe. It would be better for them not to know what the Way to salvation was, then to have known, and rejected it.

I happen to think these people can still repent and truly believe, but it will take the Lord interviening. I may be wrong about that though. I'll leave in God's Hands.

Hebrews 10:26 says that if we deliberately keep on sinning there no longer remains Christ's sacrifice for our sins. There are other scriptures as well. So let's say hypothetically that it is judgement day, you are the judge, and you have filtered out all the Christians who lost their salvation. You've narrowed it down from a large group to a small group who will actually be saved- these are the ones you foreknew would be saved before the creation of the world. The others were those you didn't know in the way that you know and loved the saved. Just because you knew the end result doesn't mean that the gospel didnt work for the other group, it's that you foreknew which ones would not lose the salvation they received.

Jesus gave the parable about the servants who were entrusted with the master's talents. The last servant (he was a genuine servant of the master- not a stranger off the street) the master cast out where... where there is what? Weeping and gnashing of teeth. We know by other scriptures that means hell.

Out of the 600,000+ original people who escaped slavery in Egypt through the parting of the sea, how many made it into the promised land that represents heaven? Two- Joshua and Caleb. "Many are called, but only few are chosen."

"If it is hard for the righteous to be saved, what will become of the unrighteous and the sinner?" 1 Peter 4:18

Yep. Hebrews 10:26. Says the same thing as 2 Peter. They had the KNOWLEDGE of the Truth, but did not have THE TRUTH. Jesus is THE TRUTH, THE WAY, AND THE LIFE.

As for your tortured explanation of Jesus NEVER knowing them, guess what, EVEN your explanation boils down to Jesus NEVER knowing them. Which means they were NEVER SAVED, which I agree with you on.

This passage, which used to be a go to verse for those pushing you have to work to keep your salvation, has totally backfired, and although you gave it a nice try, I think you have to come to the conclusion that JESUS NEVER KNEW THEM. They were never saved, born again, children of God, NEW CREATIONS IN CHRIST!

This is a reference to apostasy. Many Hebrew Christians were been pressured by Judaizers to go back to Moses while putting their faith in Christ. So wilful sinning in this context would be disregarding the one great sacrifice for sins on the Cross, and trying to fit the Old Covenant ceremonial observances (old wine) into new bottles (the New Covenant).

HEBREWS 13
10 We have an altar [the finished work of Christ on the altar of the Cross, and the Memorial Feast to remember that], whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle [those who continue the Old Covenant sacrifices].

11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.

12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without [outside] the gate.

13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without [outside] the camp, bearing his reproach.

Christianity and Christ were reproached by unbelieving Jews. So believing Jews must bear that reproach. Everything in this book is to ensure that Hebrew Christians understood that there was no going back to Moses.

Well said. And being they were never actually saved, that is why there remains no sacrifice for those sins they still carry. Because Jesus is the only way, truth, to eternal life.

Those who know Christ do not sin. (1 John 5: 18)

however, in hell, I'd sin with bitterness and resentment
therefore, hell is a situation where obeying 1 John 5:18 is impossible

therefore, it's impossible to not sin in all situation, therefore it's impossible to know Christ
Therefore, salvation is impossible

and why would God create humanity at all, since no one will enter heaven?

Your comments in 1 John are completely out of context, ignoring everything that can before it..

You are reading your own biased, preconceived theology into the text. Born again Christians do not sin willfully (without goal or effort to stop).

*In Hebrews 10:26, To "sin willfully" in the Greek carries the idea of deliberate intention that is habitual, which stems from rejecting Christ deliberately. This is CONTINUOUS ACTION - A MATTER OF PRACTICE. Now we don't walk along our daily life and "accidentally" fall into a pit called sin. We exercise our will but, the use of the participle clearly shows a CONTINUOUS ACTION. The unrighteous practice sin (1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Galatians 5:19-21); not the righteous, who are born of God (1 Corinthians 6:11; 1 John 3:9).

Hebrews 10:26 (AMP) - For if we go on willfully and deliberately sinning after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice [to atone] for our sins [that is, no further offering to anticipate]. *No loss of salvation here.

1 Corinthians 6:9 - Do you not know that the UNRIGHTEOUS will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. *11 - And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Galatians 5:19 - Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who PRACTICE such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

*1 John 3:9 - No one who is born of God PRACTICES sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

without goal or effort to stop <-- are you saying, if we are trying to "understand sin better" or "understand why we sin" so that we can somehow be better able to overcome sin, is that in a way count as goal or effort of some kind?

The talents represent monetary value and are distibuted according to ability (Matthew 25:15). The requirement is to invest in Christ. The first two servants deposited their money with the bankers (Matthew 25:27) but the third servant buried his money in the ground (vs. 25). The third servant had been given abilities and the opportunity to believe and bear fruit in accordance, but had chosen to reject it.

The fact that the latter man in this parable is called wicked and slothful and an unprofitable servant (Matthew 25:30) who is cast out into outer darkness, certainly indicates that he was not a true disciple of the master. The idea of this illustrative parable is that all true believers will produce fruit in varying degress. All believers are fruitful, but not all are equally fruitful (Matthew 13:23). Those who produce no results at all are not truly converted.

This man's characterization of the master maligns him as a cruel and ruthless opportunist, "reaping and gathering" what he had no right to claim as his own. This slothful so-called servant does not represent a genuine believer, for it is obvious that this man had no true knowledge of the master. Two of these servants were children of God, but not the third. Children of God are not cast out into outer darkness. The fact that this man is called a "servant" does not mean necessarily that he is saved. *Israel (the Jews) were called the Lord’s servants, but they were not all saved. *Isaiah 43:10 - “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen,
That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.

Moses was not allowed to enter into the promised land. Is he in heaven?

As quoted from Proverbs 11:31 and reinforces the point that if it is with great difficulty, suffering, pain and loss that the righteous are saved, what will become of the ungodly man and sinner? Peter was not implying that it's hard to be saved in the sense that it's hard to work for and earn your salvation, as if only those who win a gold medal in the Olympics will be saved and everyone else will perish.