Are there still apostles today?

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J

justpassinthrough

Senior Member
#21
Oct 31, 2015
2,290
588
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#21
OstrichSmiling said:
For sure there are those persons who are self identified apostles. However, they are not actually Apostles.

In the Gospel of Luke, Jesus used "apostle" to refer to messengers sent by God to preach to Israel:

Because of this, God in his wisdom said, "I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute." (Luke 11:49, NIV)​
However, the primary definition applies to a singular group of men who held a supreme role in the early church. The apostles were Jesus Christ's 12 closest disciples, chosen by him early in his ministry to spread the gospel after his death and resurrection. In the Bible, they are called Jesus' disciples until the Lord's ascension into heaven. Thereafter, they are referred to as apostles.

Source & More Reading:
What Is an Apostle?
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And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.

5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick,cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, 10 nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food. Matthew 10:1-10


They were called Apostles, being sent out with power and authority long before His ascension.


Judas was an Apostle, before His ascension -


24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles. Acts 1:24-26



Besides the 12, there were other Apostles, of which was James who wrote the book of James and was the Lord's brother, then son of Mary.


But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. Galatians 1:19



There will always be Apostles, Prophets, Evangelist's, Pastors and Teacher until we all come to the unity of faith.


Right now, we are divided. Because of much false doctrine being promoted through the body of Christ, we are not growing and being conformed to the image of His Son, to the measure and stature of a perfect man: the measure and stature of Christ.

Until we all come to that maturity and unity there will be Apostles, as well as the other offices, who teach the doctrine of Christ; which is what Jesus Christ taught His Apostles to teach their disciples, which is why it is also called the Apostles doctrine.



11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ. Ephesians 4:11-15


  • that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine


If there are no more Apostles, then there are no more Pastors or Teachers, for they are all called to the same purpose:

To teach the truth in love for the equipping of the saints, and bringing the body of Christ into maturity.



Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


  • Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.



JPT
 
G

garee

Banned
#22
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#22
jameen said:
Yes there are still apostles but the self proclaiming ones hehehehe

To be a real apostle

you should have met Jesus in person and even dined with him once.
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God does not offer the witness of men .We put of faith or trust in the things of God, not seen His witness.

That's a popular fallacy that wants to give the apostles more than what their name applies . and in some cases like Catholicism they misuse the word apostle in order to rise above the authority of all things written in the law and the prophets(sola scriptura) in order to puff up their denomination above that of another. As if what has been given they like all men other did not receive it freely from God but thinking they earned it like the man in Mathew 7 , the wonderful worker of iniquity .Those who glory in there own flesh and not the unsen work of God .

I refer to it as one of the unthinkables

And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?1 Corinthians 4:6-7


The word apostles with no extra meaning added to it as that which can change the use of the word by violating the warning in Deuteronomy 4:3.... not to add a new meaning to a word (singular) as God's way of protecting the integrity of his word. The word apostle simply means "sent one" with nothing else added .

When God sends us with the gospel, two by two we are considered apostles in the truest sense of the word . I would offer the first apostle was Abel who God sent to bring the gospel to his brother ,His brother killed him . that apotles bllod to this days cries out in a hope of receiving the new incorruptible body in the new heavens an earth . Moses was a apostle, The Son of Man was a apostle, all sent with the word of God are.
 
S

shrume

Senior Member
#23
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
464
83
#23
joefizz said:
Well this all depends on one's "definition" of "apostles" for as far as "Apostles" meaning "original 12 of the disciples"(matthias chosen by lots in place of judas iscariot) one who was chosen by Jesus as a chosen vassal there were but 12 with the "exception" of Paul because unlike the rest he was chosen before hand as an apostle/chosen vassal and did not "follow him" as a disciple only through the revelation of Jesus and stopping him from slaying more people did Saul come to know Jesus in any "good wise".
The other definition is regarding "foreign missions" which refers to anyone "sent" by the 13 Apostles on a "mission" there in lies the "difference" you can't put the 13 chosen apostles/disciples under the same classification or respect as the "many" "mission apostles".
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Apostles are apostles. There were apostles in the first century, there are apostles today.
 
O

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
#24
Jun 17, 2018
1,027
418
83
#24
justpassinthrough said:
And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.

5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick,cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, 10 nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food. Matthew 10:1-10


They were called Apostles, being sent out with power and authority long before His ascension.


Judas was an Apostle, before His ascension -


24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles. Acts 1:24-26



Besides the 12, there were other Apostles, of which was James who wrote the book of James and was the Lord's brother, then son of Mary.


But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. Galatians 1:19



There will always be Apostles, Prophets, Evangelist's, Pastors and Teacher until we all come to the unity of faith.


Right now, we are divided. Because of much false doctrine being promoted through the body of Christ, we are not growing and being conformed to the image of His Son, to the measure and stature of a perfect man: the measure and stature of Christ.

Until we all come to that maturity and unity there will be Apostles, as well as the other offices, who teach the doctrine of Christ; which is what Jesus Christ taught His Apostles to teach their disciples, which is why it is also called the Apostles doctrine.



11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ. Ephesians 4:11-15


  • that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine


If there are no more Apostles, then there are no more Pastors or Teachers, for they are all called to the same purpose:

To teach the truth in love for the equipping of the saints, and bringing the body of Christ into maturity.



Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


  • Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.



JPT
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I am familiar with your argument that salvation is transitory. That's not my point in my post you quoted. Luke's account of the Apostleship of the 12 and when it occurred is correct. Your saying this, "They were called Apostles, being sent out with power and authority long before His ascension." Contradicts that fact in the Book of Luke scripture.

Understanding the meaning of "Disciple":
IA. The Term “Disciple” and the Concept of “Discipleship”
1B. BASIC MEANING OF ΜΑΘΗΤΉΣ
The Greek term μαθητής (mathētēs) refers generally to any “student,” “pupil,” “apprentice,” or “adherent,” as opposed to a “teacher.” In the ancient world, however, it is most often associated, with people who were devoted followers of a great religious leader or teacher of philosophy. [More reading @ link above]


Apostle
Apostle
(Gk. apostolos [ajpovstolo"]). Envoy, ambassador, or messenger commissioned to carry out the instructions of the commissioning aget.

Etymology and Usage of the Term Pre-Christian use of apostolos [ajpovstolo"] in the sense of messenger is rare. More common is the verb apostello, referring to the sending of a fleet or an embassy. Only in Herodotus (1.21; 5.38) is it used of a personal envoy. Josephus employs it once (Antiquities17.11.1) in the classical sense of an embassy. Epictetus (Discourse3.22) speaks of the ideal Cynic teacher as one "sent by Zeus" to be a messenger of the gods and an "overseer" of human affairs. [More reading @ Apostle link above]
 
J

joefizz

Guest
#25
#25
shrume said:
Apostles are apostles. There were apostles in the first century, there are apostles today.
Click to expand...
Any "proof" of this in scriptures?
Surely Jesus or his 13 apostles would have "mentioned" if there were to be "apostles" likened unto the 13 wouldn't you think?
Granted the term "apostles" for "missionary people", yes they are around but there are none like unto the 13 apostles that's what I stand by because they were "given power" to do more than anyone today can do.
 
J

joefizz

Guest
#26
#26
justpassinthrough said:
And when He had called His twelve disciples to Him, He gave them power over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all kinds of sickness and all kinds of disease. 2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Cananite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.

5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: “Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7 And as you go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of heaven is at hand.’ 8 Heal the sick,cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give. 9 Provide neither gold nor silver nor copper in your money belts, 10 nor bag for your journey, nor two tunics, nor sandals, nor staffs; for a worker is worthy of his food. Matthew 10:1-10


They were called Apostles, being sent out with power and authority long before His ascension.


Judas was an Apostle, before His ascension -


24 And they prayed and said, “You, O Lord, who know the hearts of all, show which of these two You have chosen 25 to take part in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.” 26 And they cast their lots, and the lot fell on Matthias. And he was numbered with the eleven apostles. Acts 1:24-26



Besides the 12, there were other Apostles, of which was James who wrote the book of James and was the Lord's brother, then son of Mary.


But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. Galatians 1:19



There will always be Apostles, Prophets, Evangelist's, Pastors and Teacher until we all come to the unity of faith.


Right now, we are divided. Because of much false doctrine being promoted through the body of Christ, we are not growing and being conformed to the image of His Son, to the measure and stature of a perfect man: the measure and stature of Christ.

Until we all come to that maturity and unity there will be Apostles, as well as the other offices, who teach the doctrine of Christ; which is what Jesus Christ taught His Apostles to teach their disciples, which is why it is also called the Apostles doctrine.



11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ. Ephesians 4:11-15


  • that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine


If there are no more Apostles, then there are no more Pastors or Teachers, for they are all called to the same purpose:

To teach the truth in love for the equipping of the saints, and bringing the body of Christ into maturity.



Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9


  • Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God.



JPT
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Actually I think it's just an "excuse" to put people on pedestals because people would like to have someone like that it's the same old thing that's happened since Moses people wanted to exalt him too but God wouldn't allow it.
If people were to just leave it at "apostles" as in "missionaries" and leave the 13 apostles alone in title then there wouldn't be so much "pride" and "delusion of grandeur" in churches.
 
S

shrume

Senior Member
#27
Jun 26, 2017
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#27
joefizz said:
Any "proof" of this in scriptures?
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Eph 4:11, which was written long after Christ's ascension. Barnabas was an apostle (Acts 14:14), Junia was an apostle (Rom 16:7). An apostle is "one who is sent".

Surely Jesus or his 13 apostles would have "mentioned" if there were to be "apostles" likened unto the 13 wouldn't you think?
Granted the term "apostles" for "missionary people", yes they are around but there are none like unto the 13 apostles that's what I stand by because they were "given power" to do more than anyone today can do.
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On that we disagree.

The manifestation of the spirit, which includes miracles, healings, word of knowledge, word of wisdom, and more, is given to every man (Christian) (1 Cor 12:7).
 
O

OstrichSmiling

Well-known member
#28
Jun 17, 2018
1,027
418
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#28
joefizz said:
Any "proof" of this in scriptures?
Surely Jesus or his 13 apostles would have "mentioned" if there were to be "apostles" likened unto the 13 wouldn't you think?
Granted the term "apostles" for "missionary people", yes they are around but there are none like unto the 13 apostles that's what I stand by because they were "given power" to do more than anyone today can do.
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Jesus performed the ritual that transformed his students, the Disciples, into his Apostles when he washed and anointed their feet for the task of spreading the Gospel.
Those who are called by God today to minister, be they male or female, are anointed with that same spirit but they are not Apostles of the Christ. There were only the 12 that were appointed by the master for that purpose.
And yes, I do agree with you that attaching the title to ones self does seem to be an ego move.
 
J

joefizz

Guest
#29
#29
shrume said:
Eph 4:11, which was written long after Christ's ascension. Barnabas was an apostle (Acts 14:14), Junia was an apostle (Rom 16:7). An apostle is "one who is sent".


On that we disagree.

The manifestation of the spirit, which includes miracles, healings, word of knowledge, word of wisdom, and more, is given to every man (Christian) (1 Cor 12:7).
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Not exactly each person has the possibility of "gifts" and really I don't trust people today being able to do miracles because it sounds like an anti Christ trick/sorcery/witch craft aside from "prayer" through Jesus to God for healing that I have known to be true and work.
 
S

shrume

Senior Member
#30
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
464
83
#30
joefizz said:
Not exactly each person has the possibility of "gifts"
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1 Cor 12:
7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

and really I don't trust people today being able to do miracles because it sounds like an anti Christ trick/sorcery/witch craft aside from "prayer" through Jesus to God for healing that I have known to be true and work.
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I believe miracles happen today.
 
J

joefizz

Guest
#31
#31
OstrichSmiling said:
Jesus performed the ritual that transformed his students, the Disciples, into his Apostles when he washed and anointed their feet for the task of spreading the Gospel.
Those who are called by God today to minister, be they male or female, are anointed with that same spirit but they are not Apostles of the Christ. There were only the 12 that were appointed by the master for that purpose.
And yes, I do agree with you that attaching the title to ones self does seem to be an ego move.
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Now this post makes a whole lot more "sense", yes we all can be called and given the Holy spirit to serve but people today aren't "apostles of Christ" now we could say "apostles" as in missionaries but it doesn't have the same "ring to it" as many people would rather "hear" different and believe a person to be "more than they are" .
 
J

joefizz

Guest
#32
#32
shrume said:
1 Cor 12:
7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.


I believe miracles happen today.
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I believe they happen today too but only by God/Jesus not with people or at least "true miracles" as the bible states there will be if not already "anti christs" performing "false miracles" and leading people to be deceived such as fire or healing and so on.
 
S

shrume

Senior Member
#33
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
464
83
#33
joefizz said:
Now this post makes a whole lot more "sense", yes we all can be called and given the Holy spirit to serve but people today aren't "apostles of Christ" now we could say "apostles" as in missionaries but it doesn't have the same "ring to it" as many people would rather "hear" different and believe a person to be "more than they are" .
Click to expand...
Who are they apostles of?
 
S

shrume

Senior Member
#34
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
464
83
#34
joefizz said:
I believe they happen today too but only by God/Jesus
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God is the source for the power behind the miracles. But people can do them.

Acts 6:
8) And Stephen, full of faith and power, did great wonders and miracles among the people.

Acts 8:
6) And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.

not with people or at least "true miracles" as the bible states there will be if not already "anti christs" performing "false miracles" and leading people to be deceived such as fire or healing and so on.
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Yes, that stuff exists. Doesn't mean miracles done today are done by deceived people, or people with the intent to deceive.
 
J

joefizz

Guest
#35
#35
shrume said:
Who are they apostles of?
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You know you would do well to stop with the whole easy win trick, people do that all the time it's called straw manning in an attempt to "win a debate or discussion" by slightly or totally adjusting what is said or written to match one's beliefs.
For example I could say by John 3:15 and John 3:16 that "everyone" will be saved but that's not what scripture says that would be adjusting it to match what I might want to believe so as to not "be contended with".
 
S

seed_time_harvest

Senior Member
#36
Dec 9, 2011
14,142
1,806
113
#36
pjharrison said:
Some Christians says that there are no more apostles today. Ephesians 4:11 And he gave some, apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers. Some Christians believe that the others are still around, but not the apostles.
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If there Is a place where an apostle Is needed GOD will provide.
 
S

shrume

Senior Member
#37
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
464
83
#37
joefizz said:
You know you would do well to stop with the whole easy win trick, people do that all the time it's called straw manning in an attempt to "win a debate or discussion" by slightly or totally adjusting what is said or written to match one's beliefs.
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What? What did I alter or adjust? It was a simple question. Who are they apostles of?

For example I could say by John 3:15 and John 3:16 that "everyone" will be saved but that's not what scripture says that would be adjusting it to match what I might want to believe so as to not "be contended with".
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No, you could not say that.

John 3:
15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Those verses do not say that everyone will be saved. They say that whoever believes on Christ will be saved.
 
J

joefizz

Guest
#38
#38
shrume said:
What? What did I alter or adjust? It was a simple question. Who are they apostles of?


No, you could not say that.

John 3:
15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Those verses do not say that everyone will be saved. They say that whoever believes on Christ will be saved.
Click to expand...
Exactly my point.
 
J

joefizz

Guest
#39
#39
shrume said:
What? What did I alter or adjust? It was a simple question. Who are they apostles of?


No, you could not say that.

John 3:
15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Those verses do not say that everyone will be saved. They say that whoever believes on Christ will be saved.
Click to expand...
Well you made the question "in your favor" that's another form of staw manning putting it in such a way that if answered you could pull the conversation your way disregarding my point and insisting on your point politicians do this plenty.
 
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